 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-11-06 06:57
I recently listened to an audition. The first round was behind a curtain. There were both Boehm and German system players at the audition, and of course we didn't know who was who in the first round. In my notes I always noted (just for fun) whether I thought the person was playing German or Boehm system. After the first round when we found out who was who, I discovered that I had got 23 out of 23 candidates correct! (i.e. which system they were playing).
So that's just an interesting bit of experience for those who believe that you wouldn't be able to tell from a blind test which system a player was using...
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-11-06 07:11
Did you also guess manufactuer and model?
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! ![[down]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley23.gif) Buffet
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Author: ned
Date: 2004-11-06 07:29
''Did you also guess manufactuer and model?''
Hmmmmm..............!
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-11-06 07:37
"Did you also guess manufactuer and model?"
Of course, and also mouthpiece and reed strength! :-)
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-11-06 12:18
How about where they studied and whom with?
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! Buffet
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Author: William
Date: 2004-11-06 16:15
"I recently listened to an audition"
AHA!!!! You did not state that you were (in fact) on the opposite side of the curtain and could not see. And you didn't know "who" they were because you didn't ask them, at the time, who there were. So, there, Mr (smarty) Liquorice (stick) Mystic from Down Under..............we're onto you!!!
Post Edited (2004-11-06 16:16)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-06 17:06
Come now skeptics! It is EASY to tell another system.
Boehm vs German I could tell them apart in a coma - with 100% accuracy.
I can also tell 1/1 fingerings too when used if going from an A to Bb 1/1
and it doesn't matter how good the player is.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-11-06 22:35
William wrote: "AHA!!!! You did not state that you were (in fact) on the opposite side of the curtain and could not see."
Sorry- I thought that was obvious. I was on the other side of the curtain, and couldn't see them. I'm really not trying to be "smarty". I was quite surprised that I was 100% correct in guessing which system was being played.
Er... what's with the "Mystic from Down Under"?
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-11-06 22:46
No matter the system, I bet they both were equally annoying.
David Dow
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-11-07 04:27
I'm pretty sure William was just being sarcastic. Anyway, beside bragging, maybe you (or David) can explain how could you tell. I personally never even saw a german system clarinet, so I'm not sure which notes sound different or what is the difference.
Post Edited (2004-11-07 06:19)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-11-07 07:30
Ah! Perhaps all the German ones had cork pads, and that is what you noticed.
Perhaps the German ones were all made from composite material, or plastic!!!!
Post Edited (2004-11-07 09:18)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-11-07 10:44
"Anyway, beside bragging, maybe you (or David) can explain how could you tell"
Perhaps I'm being misunderstood here. I'm not intending to brag at all. It's just that in previous discussions much has been made about how it's the player and not the instrument. People have come up with the idea of having a blind test and seeing if one could really tell the difference between German and Boehm instruments if you don't know beforehand what you're hearing. I found myself in exactly this situation at the audition, so I thought it would be interesting to see if I could tell which instruments were being played. I was quite surprised that I got them all right!
The main difference was in the tone quality. Of course, this is difficult to put into words. My description would be that the German instruments had a more "closed" sound. Some German players sounded "bright" and others "dark" (in my understanding of these terms), but there was always this "covered" quality in the sound. There were also certain intonation tendencies on the German system that are different from the tendencies of the Boehm instruments.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-11-07 11:46
I agree, I was simply trying to make a funny.
I do find the German clarinet has tendencies I like and dislike..
much holds the same of the Boehm clarinet as well.
The throat register on the German clarinet is much better than the Boehm...but I really prefer the upper register on the Boehm..
However, a good player can do much to ameliorate a bad note etc..
David Dow
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2004-11-07 11:48
Your results are certainly interesting, but since your “blind” test was not controlled, it isn’t possible to make any definitive conclusions about the correlation between the instrument design and the sound. Given that each player probably played each piece only once on their own set-up, here are just a few factors that could affect what you heard.
Mouthpiece: Since German system clarinets have different mouthpiece requirements, perhaps you were actually hearing the different mouthpiece dimensions.
Reed: Since German system clarinets have different mouthpiece requirements, perhaps you were actually hearing the different reed cuts.
Ligature: Since the German system clarinets tend to use string ligatures, perhaps you were actually hearing a dampening of the reed due to the string ligature.
Volume: Perhaps your German system players happened to play louder. It is well-known that the ear will almost always prefer the slightly louder of two otherwise-identical musical excerpts due to the non-linearity of its frequency sensitivity in the bass and treble regions. This fact alone accounts for most of the perceived differences in audio equipment.
Repertoire: Perhaps your German system players chose pieces that tended to sound more “covered.”
Performer expectations: Since it is “known” the German system players have a “darker” “covered” sound, perhaps they simply adjust their playing technique to accomplish this.
Of course, it may be that the instrument design itself was the significant factor. A more interesting test would be to find if you (or anyone) could score the same accuracy if Larry Combs (and other clarinetists who play both systems well) were to perform a series of excerpts multiple times on various instruments of each system.
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Author: mystery science dieter
Date: 2004-11-07 13:20
Why skeptical? Here is a professional clarinetist who plays regularly with professionals of both systems. Not surprising he could tell with good accuracy.
In addition, presumably all the clarinetists he listened to played the same material, making it much easier to tell.
If it were me listening, I would listen for connections between certain intervals. Certain intervals are clunkier on the German system and that is usually a giveaway.
Using sound alone would be tricky but in many cases it would work. Particularly with weaker players (at auditions there are often plenty of these).
The idea that the string ligature would be a giveaway (unless the person meant that as a joke) makes no sense. Many German players use metal now anyway. Offer an expert 5-1 odds if he can identify correctly metal vs. string ligature from the same player blindfolded. I doubt you would get many takers for more than 5 bucks.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-11-07 21:10
Why skeptical?
The validity of ANY test is determined by how it can stand critical scrutiny by the skeptics. It is the skeptics that have the analytical minds that can home in on the multitude of parameters that interfer with the validity test results.
Well done, Phat Cat.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-11-08 00:09
When I was studying clarinet in a music conservatory (in Europe) most of the students there played 'Uebel' Boehm system but two guys played Selmers (Boehm) and one 'Uebel' German system. I could easily recognize the Selmer clarinet from the others. I couldn't tell Selmer gays apart but always knew it was a Selmer. I would walk in and tell right away if someone played Selmer or 'Uebel' German system in the conservatory's basement.
Congratulation Liquorice! You have a nice set of ears. I wouldn't worry about the skeptics. They are skeptics to a certain point. When the skeptic laughs at someone's ability he doesn't comprehend he's just a looooser.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2004-11-08 02:19)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-11-08 06:22
Phat Cat- you are right, there are far too many variables here to draw any definitive conclusions. This was never meant to be a scientific study. I was just sharing my experience for interests sake.
However, I must disagree with you on a few points:
Reeds- reeds are cut to suit the mouthpiece that you are playing. Some people manage to get Vandoren Black Masters to work on a French mouthpiece. But I have never heard of anybody using White Masters on a French mouthpiece. The cut is wrong for the facing so it just wouldn't work. While I agree that the mouthpiece is a major factor in sound quality, I really don't think one could say that the reed cut was the cause of one player sounding "German" and another sounding "French". Put a White Master on your Vandoren B40 mouthpiece- it won't make you sound German, in fact it won't even play well!
Ligature- The idea that putting a string ligature on a French reed/mouthpiece/instrument will make you sound "German" is absurd! And like "mystery science dieter" said, many German players use metal or leather ligatures.
Volume- There was no noticeable tendency in terms of volume of a particular instrument. And I never said that I preferred one instrument over the other. Some clarinetists made wonderful music on German clarinets and others made wonderful music on French instruments. I voted for the best players, some were playing German system, some Boehm.
Repertoire- the candidates were playing the same list of repertoire.
Performer expectations- You say that it is known that German system players have a “darker” “covered” sound. I disagree. The various players on both German and Boehm instruments had very different sounds. Some German players sounded very "bright" while others sounded "dark" to my ears and understanding of those terms. But there was a certain innate quality to the German instruments which is hard to put into words, but which I could pick out every time. But it really didn't have to do with the players all trying to make the same kind of sound- the different playing styles and tonal approach of various German system players was as different as could be.
So I am absolutely convinced that the difference has only to do with the instrument and mouthpiece. Of course a more interesting and scientific test would be to see if one could hear which instrument Larry Combs (or any other player who plays both systems) was playing in a blind test. Hopefully somebody will have that opportunity someday?!
Post Edited (2004-11-08 06:28)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-11-08 06:46
Are not the german instruments a different size bore and length? I know the girl in my ensemble that plays a german instrument has a clarinet that's MUCH shorter than mine. I'm talking about two inches. I like to place mine next to hers and shout out, "HA HA HA! MY CLARINET'S BIGGER THAN YOURS!" To which someone almost always replies under their breath, "He's just compensating . . . ."
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: graham
Date: 2004-11-08 16:40
Poor Phat Cat. Not Sceptic, but S****stic.
Surely it's the way the bell B key "plops" that makes it clear it's not a Boehm. Though in a recently purchased recording featuring the excellent Magistrelli and his old teacher (a guy called Leister) it seemed I could only regularly hear the plop with Magistrelli, so Leister must have worked out how to tame it (teflon pads?)
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Author: Todd W.
Date: 2004-11-08 23:10
Liquorice --
Thank you for sharing your listening experience (which, you make clear, is in no way a scientific experiment). You have certainly provided food for thought for those of us who are in the "undecided" camp about innate sound characteristics of particular types of equipment. 23 correct out of 23 "trials" is pretty impressive evidence that you were able to discern a difference in sound.
Gordon and Phat Cat --
Thanks also to you for suggesting some possible reasons other than the Boehm vs. German system option as causes for the sound differences. I'm not sure why your (it seems to me) reasonable cautions are being attacked and name calling has entered the picture.
I hope all three of you will continue to post here and enrich our dialogue with your individual, and valuable, viewpoints.
Todd W.
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Author: Kalakos
Date: 2004-11-08 23:52
Hi, Folks:
For what it's worth, I play Albert system (similar to "German" I guess).
With respect to the different mouthpiece comments etc., I should say that I have played on some Boehm clarinets just for fun to see how they compare (including several brands such as Buffet).
So, with my mouthpiece, my reed, and my style of playing (and physical characteristics etc.), the Boehm system clarinets always had a different tone from my Alberts! I won't try to characterize it, because those terms are always open to discussion/disagreement. However, the Boehm tone is distinctly different from the tone of my various Albert brands.
I know you might say this is "subjective," so I only offer it as my "anecdotal evidence" type comment in the spirit of sharing.
Kalakos
Kalakos Music
http://www.TAdelphia.com
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2004-11-09 02:28
If you'll note, I never asserted that bore design does not affect the sound; in fact, I do not doubt that it does.
I merely pointed out that other variables must be controlled in order to determine how much of what was heard can be attributed to the instrument’s "system"
How quickly they rise up to smite the blasphemer.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-09 13:41
What I hear are the timbre of the fingerings. If you play a high Bb on a german system and a high Bb on a boehm, I most likely won't know the difference at all as I haven't heard a lot of german system clarinets in concert and only played Michele Zukovsky's clarinet once.
But if you play an A and then slur to a Bb, I'll probably know it most every time which is which as I can hear the change of the fingering.
Example was the live recording online recently of Tony Pay's Mozart Concerto - I could tell right away that it wasn't a boehm fingered clarinet.
I would think that most players can tell that. Nothing special
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-11-09 19:39
".....the timbre of the fingerings"
I have a friend who is an extremely capable piano tuner/overhauler and bass string maker/designer.
He has a special ability to hear the various overtones inherent in a given note distinctly instead of a jumble called 'timbre'.
With ears this acute, when he listens to a clarinet scale he hears a different timbre for every note in the scale.
Such are the results of the acoustic compromises made in the design of a clarinet.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-11-09 21:30
David wrote: "But if you play an A and then slur to a Bb, I'll probably know it most every time which is which as I can hear the change of the fingering."
But the fingering are the same on both systems for this slur! It is possible to play the B-flat with a forked fingering on the German system, but this isn't the fingering that would be chosen for this slur. Or have I misunderstood your example?
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-09 22:55
Nah, it just demonstrates my lack of familiarity with the German system. I would hear a 1/1 fingering going from Bb to A though
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