 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: DAVE
Date: 2004-10-10 07:31
Why did Buffet and the other makers stop using this key? It seems like a better idea because with the wrap around version, the vent sticks out from the clarinet rather than protruding into the bore.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-10 09:07
It looks ugly?
What is the problem with the vent sticking into the bore?
On the other side there will be just as much water problem, because water does not RUN into a register vent. It condenses in there, and will do so wherever the vent is. It probably has more chance of clearing at the end where the pad is wobbling up and down, than at the other end where there is nothing to interfere with the capillary action holding a drop there, once the drop has established.
Actually I was under the impression that the vent stuck into the bore for acoustic reasons. Does it never stick in the bore in top quality clarinets with the wrap around?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dee
Date: 2004-10-10 11:56
Those that I have seen with the wrap around register key have a raised seat for the key rather than a tube sticking into the bore.
It may have been discontinued for structural reasons. If a key is broken on a horn that has one of these keys, it is often the register key. Or perhaps there is a small cost difference in manufacturing.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-10-10 13:52
I have a 1908 Buffet set with wraparound register keys. The design works, but it's technically problematic. The pad moves sideways and slides onto the top of the vent. This means that even though the vent is tilted toward the key, the seating area has to be flat, rather than having a raised rim like the current design. Also, the key is long and thin, which means it's easily bent (and broken). This makes the seating even more problematic.
Current German clarinets use a semi-wraparound design, but it's designed so the register vent (on the side of the instrument) is covered by a short key.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-10-10 15:12
My modern Amati Oehler-style horn has the "wrapped around" key, and it works just fine. No problems with water, no problems with sealing the vent (although the angle of approach issue is there, no doubt about it). The horn is just as facile in fast passages as a Boehm/Klose
I've also played other such horns in the past, and never encountered a problem with same over many months of use. The flicking of the key there in your peripheral vision can be distracting at first (much like what I experience with the rocker octave mechanism on a Selmer baritone...the little thing just wiggles there, right under your nose, like some sort of insect climbing up the horn), but you do get used to it.
However, the exposed nature of the key (with a cantilevered design compared to the straightforward one of the current Boehm/Klose) is an argument against using the "wraparound design".
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2004-10-11 02:15
I have a 1912 Buffet with the wrap-around register key. (No donut key thank God) Having the register vent on top is better acoustically as there is no projection into the bore. Sound waves travel in both directions in a clarinet, so anything that protrudes into the bore can block a portion of these waves. In worst case it can act as a parasitic reflector and cause problems with some frequencies (notes). The higher ones would be most affected.
I believe the reason it was moved is that it is harder to make than the current design. Another reason it that it can be knocked out of adjustment during assembly and disassembly. (How do you hold the clarinet during this process?)
The modern vent protrudes into the bore to prevent moisture from running out due to the combination of condensation and gravity, not to mention ease of manufacture.
If you look at the thumb hole you will notice that it too, enters the bore, but only enough to prevent condensation from dripping out. You will also notice that the thumb hole follows the inside contour of the bore. This indicates that the designers wanted to minimize any protrusion into the bore for the reasons given above.
Regards
Mark
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ned
Date: 2004-10-11 03:09
Mark - I have an old Buffet too. I understand it to be of either 1911 or 1918 vintage - the serial # is 339G1 - it's my regular instrument.
It's an albert system, as I assume yours to be also. How old would you estimate it to be, if you know of these things? I have done searches for the number but there seems to be no series with this sort of configuration.
Thumb hole has a sleeve which prodrudes minimally in to the and is contoured too and register vent seems fairly similar to what Ken describes.
Ken,
Is your 1908 Buffet an albert system?
thanks in anticipation,
john kelly
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-11 04:15
"....Having the register vent on top is better acoustically as there is no projection into the bore...."
Just thinking out loud... The purpose of the vent is to partially equalise the pressure at that location in the air column to atmospheric. Would this not be more successful with the pressure equalised at the CENTRE of the bore, rather than at the side of the bore?
There are probably quite a few issues involved concerning the merits of an invasive or non-invasive register tube, including an appropriate length, to introduce some friction for the air vibrating in and out of the vent.
A summary of issues from an acoustics expert would be interesting. No doubt, Benade has written dozens of pages on the issue!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-10-11 14:01
Good questions, Gordon, I'll look in what Benade, Rendall, Brymer, Lawson, Gibson etc references I have, for their comments. Also the patents cited in Galper's patent, which go back to Leblanc's initial [US] pat 1,929,xxx [as I recall, will look up a copy] may shed some light. Bettoney wrote some commentary on an early [1900?] German book in a 1950 woodwind magazine, will see if I can find it. My "take" on the vent is that it "bleeds-off" an acoustic pressure node which produces the fundemental wave pattern [chalemeau register], causing the jump to the next available harmonic, the 3rd [due to cylindrical bore], our clarion register. Now I've told you more than what I really know I know, so will research ! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-10-11 14:22
Lee Gibson in "Clar. Acoustics" has some discussions of "venting" which might help. Perhaps he reads our BB and might respond? Al Rice, have you some thots [writings] on this subject ? TKS, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-10-11 15:58
Yes, Benade in his 1960 "Horns, Strings and Harmony" [IMHO, everyone should have one !] , he goes deeply into acoustical vibrations in tubes and pipes, Chapters 7 +, primarily using the flute for explanation, at the end of which, he gives an "I guess" and invites further research. He has other writings, will look. I recently bought a PB copy of "The Art of Clarinetistry", 3rd Ed. 1974 [via EBAY] by Wm H Stubbins, inventor of the S-K reg. vent system, a little known book [to me] which also goes in deeply, Chap's 5 and 7. I suspect, much of this "study" must involve the OLD Helmholtz research into sound phenomena. A bit complex almost immediately. I just hope that others may be better in physics than I. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-11 19:27
I wonder if a MODERN approach to wrap around register keys is associated with a vent that protrudes into the bore....
The Yamaha "German Boehm" models (YCL-856 & 846) and Oehler models (YCL-857 & 847) all have 1/2-wrap-around register keys, and vents that protrude little from the outside of the body. Does anybody know if the vents protrude internally?
Yamaha will have done their acoustics homework on this.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-10-11 20:16
Gordon - I took a quickie look at some of [!] Yamaha's [recent] patents and searched a few other word combinations, such as Speaker Vent which is the title of Galper's patent, 5,241,890, all I have found so far is US 6.765,138, Contra Bassoon Vent asg. to Fox. I'll read a bit to see if there is more there. This is a quite "exclusive" art IMHO, and many co's. dont want to trade disclosure for limited protection. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ned
Date: 2004-10-11 22:32
Thanks Ken,
I knew of this site when I had another computer (with the URL) and checked it then, to no avail. Happily the serial # now shows up.
So my Buffet is circa 1911 and still working very well for me in 2004. I wonder how many cars of that vintage (disregarding public taste!) would still be roadworthy if kept overhauled regularly.
jk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-10-12 00:24
The register tube protruding into the bore is just wrong. This tube should be non-invasive just like the chimneys under the rings are.
Leblanc has this tube partially on the outside and it protrudes into the bore very little in comparison with Buffet.
V. Kohlert had similar design since turn of the century or even earlier. Their register tubes protrude into the bore no more than 2mm. Kohlert also had specially shaped register key to accommodate this non-invasive design.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-12 02:17
Vytas wrote:
> The register tube protruding into the bore is just wrong...... >
Does that statement summarise some profound acoustic expertise that you have, or Benade's, or what? I just want to know how much value to place on it.
Note that a register vent (except when playing throat Bb) has a rather different frunction from a normal tone hole.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-10-12 11:06
Once I had a Galper vent installed on my Buffet clarinet, and it had the bulk of the opening outside the bore. I wonder if the overall length of the vent makes the difference?
I know Guy Chadash will stack rings of grenadilla on the last two chimneys to get best tuning... it makes the outlet path for a note longer.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-10-12 14:42
As I understand the workings of the clarinet bore and holes, both the length and diameter of a hole (or vent) matter, as does the placement of the inlet on the body of the horn. Vary one or all of these and you change the clarity and tuning of the note sounded.
A classic demonstration of this is the common problem of "gunk" in the register key tube. If you have a "stuffy" sounding throat Bb, the first step to take is to pull the register key and then carefully clean out the register key tube. (I used to use a pipe cleaner, but a better tool is the small disposable mascara brush used to give out samples of same at the cosmetic counter in your local department store.) Very often, a combination of moisture, swab fluff and case plush fluff will clog this tube up just enough to make for a "fuzzy" throat Bb; it does this by reducing the designed cross section of the register key tube. Just carefully clean it out and all will be well.
It's due to these factors that you can find the G#/C# hole on a number of locations on the horn's body, depending on where it can be let through the instrument (so as not to pass through the tenon joint). On my "full Boehm" horn, virtually all of the other tone holes are identical to a "normal" System 9 horn, excepting the G# hole. As it is in line with the rest of the "finger" holes and is pierced through the center tenon and socket, it is located somewhat lower on the horn than the "standard" around the back and just above the joint location. The tone hole that it covers is considerably larger than the norm as well. That said, it is both more in tune and less "stuffy" than the same notes on a standard System 9.
Doesn't the Rossi horn vary this tone hole as well? I believe that it does, but I haven't seen a Rossi horn in a good many years, so my memory might be failing me. My "Oehler" horn's approach is different, even though it's not through the tenon. Still plays a nice note that is in tune with the horn
All in all, it just shows you that there's more than one way to skin a cat...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-10-12 15:13
****I wonder if the overall length of the vent makes the difference?****
Sure it does! The overall length makes a huge difference. But that's not the point. Register tube should be on the outside and not in the bore. Whoever came up with this 'invasive design' had his head in the butt (I guess, for acoustical reasons).
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-10-12 15:26
Good comments, Terry, yours and others caused me to look among my collection. All 3 of my F B's have the C#/G# thru the socket/tenon and give GOOD sounds. My Pruefer single-bodied 19/7 [noEb] also has the tone hole "in line" as do most saxes, except for my Leblancs [Model 100 B R's], on the side. Re; register tubes, most seem to penetrate the bore about 1/3 of the dia.,4-5 mm?, as does my Stubbins !! The older Sel CT's and my Leb L7 have outside "bosses" and penetrate only about 1/4 dia., and have better toned Bbs !! The tube lengths seem to be about 7-8 mm, will look to see what Galper may say re: dimensions. Having a few electric shaver brushes, since they are about 1-2 mm dia., I use them to clean tubes. Interesting, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: graham
Date: 2004-10-12 16:35
This has prompted me to ask something about my basset horn:
It has a twin action register key which opens a B flat tone hole when the A key is depressed, and that hole does duty only for the throat B flat. The trill key B flat is also present, but, despite being mounted to the side of the instrument as it usually is, Buffet fitted a metal tube insert (quite wide, i.e. the size of the tone hole itself), and this goes into the bore about as far as the usual register hole tube. I cannot see what purpose that can serve. This trill B flat is stuffy, and I therefore do not use it, but it is inconvenient trying to remember not to use it when in all other of my instruments the trill key produces the better note.
Any explanations?
Thanks
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-13 05:09
"The register tube protruding into the bore is just wrong."
And now, "Whoever came up with this 'invasive design' had his head in the butt"
Vytas, you still have not answered my question....
Does that statement summarise some profound acoustic expertise that you have, or Benade's, or what? I just want to know how much value to place on your pronouncement.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-10-13 13:15
Graham _ I've thot about your Basset Horn question, no great conclusions, but it sounds a bit like a Stubbins-type solution to an extra-long, narrow tube inst. While the S-K didn't "revolutionize" [many of] our Bbs, its "clones" are "standard" on saxes and some bass cls, Leblancs [and lessers] in my experience/recall, the large tonehole/pad beneath the reg. key, and its mechanisns. Hope I'm not too wrong here, these are early morning thots, please correct if needed. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
