 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: oxfeely
Date: 2004-10-09 19:17
On a sax the plating does not contact the bore. Does anyone have a preference as to what type of external plating on a saxophone (clear laquer, gold, unlaquered, silver etc.) produces more attractive tone?
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Author: thomas.b
Date: 2004-10-09 19:58
its the same thing with the clarinet. What produces the most attractive tone? A good player of course...![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-10-09 21:30
As some of my continuation of the "Mark VI Alto Sax " thread investigation, I've been doing a bit of tweaking/mp/reed "testing" on 3 A S's. Some mp/reed combos give me a bright/ ?harsh? tonality, while with an old Selmer C** mp and a plastic Bonade-type lig, I can get a mellow/?dark? sound which is what I want [now]. These [pro] saxes are all gold-laquered so I can't comment on differing surface coatings, but the wide vaariations I've seen are due to mp/reed combos, rather than coatings, IMHO. Don
and a plastic Bonade-type lig I get a very mellow [classical] tonality which is what I want for what A S playing I now do
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Author: marcia
Date: 2004-10-09 22:14
I have heard it said of brass instruments that having laquer on gives a brighter/darker sound, and that NOT having laquer gives a brighter/darker sound.
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Author: hartt
Date: 2004-10-09 22:23
There is much more to tone color than just the plating.
Attractice tone ?......that's relative.
This subject is perhaps better suited for the sax forum (saxforum.com) . There, you can do a search in the General Discussion area. I've seen the topic posted .
Also try the saxquest site, among others.
Quickly, as Don mentioned, mp/lig/reed setup has a large influence on tonal character.
Also, since you mentioned gold laquer: there is a huge difference in tone color between the light vs dark vs pinkish laquer (all in the gold family). This, of course, is compounded by the thickness of the brass......and further yet, by the metallurgical composition of the brass.
.........and, the influence of the neck hasn't be approached.
Saxs' like clarinets, have varying bore dimmensions depending upon mfgr.
Then, are you referring to a 'modern' sax, 'vintage' sax, etc.
Clearly, there are far too many variables, all inter related.
regards
dennis (:o)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-10-09 23:26
Marcia,
Good one! Exactly the right answer!
I also agree with Don's comment as well. The MP, reed, and ligature may have the most effect (as several wise professors have said in the past "the closer to the player, the more the effect).
HRL
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-10-10 14:26
To pursue this interesting subject further, at present there is a discussion taking place on the MouthpieceWork YahooGroup. They mention 2 mps I inherited with my Mark 6, [older] Selmers with C** and D [untouched AFAIK] facings, much different [mellow vs bright] , so far ! I plan to try them this PM [and tom.+], as I'm uncertain of the lig's contribution and on my M 6, not my Leblanc 100. As they have said, I opened a Vito mp ?slightly?, and increased both "brightness" and volume, I prob. need skilled help. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-10-10 15:04
This one, like many other "instrument" relationships, is never going to be definatively answered under the current conditions. I once proposed the following:
* Acquire three Mark VI altos, with serial numbers in the same general range
* Play one to the point where the lacquer is deteriorated (fifteen years under heavy use
* Strip another chemically so that all of the "finish" is removed down to bare metal (no grinding or brushing here, please)
* Preserve the third in pristine condition
* Have all three horns set up by the same competent technician, fully maintained and regulated, with proper pad heights. Replace all pearls with unworn pearls; install identical plastic thumbhooks on each horn.
* Assemble a large group of players (to assure statistically valid end results) with their own comfortable to them, setups capable of being used on a Mark VI
* Blindfold these players, put latex gloves on their hands, and have them each of them play each horn for a comparison test behind a screen. Have the remainder seated on the other side, listening for that fine difference that the lacquer (either pristine or well worn) will make in the tone color between the three. Have one player play the three horns in random order, have all other rate the "tone color" for each, then rotate a new player in and repeat until the multitude assembled have all been through the process.
* Assemble all of the rating data without allowing the users and listeners to see the horns being used to produce the music. Allow for statistical differences in reporting the final results.
* Announce the findings to all at a cocktail party, thereby assuring that some fun is actually had from it all
It won't ever happen, of course. First off, who will offer up the horn to the "sacrifice" in the first place? Second, by subjecting a favorite hoary myth to the strict rigors of the "scientific method" (more or less), there's going to be some disappointment when the final results are in.
(For the record, I've used completely relacquered horns in the past and have noticed little difference between them and old (but well maintained) "stinkers" with peeled lacquer, silver plated horns and "new" horns of the same make and model. But, I've not spent most of my life in the cigarette and alcohol steeped environment of the jazz club, so what do I know?)
It's much the same with the mythical difference between the A and Bb clarinet tone color, but with one important difference: you can test the theory on clarinets without sacrificing a relic. Yet, few folks have bothered to look into the A/Bb issue. (I've always thought it would make a good project for a serious clarinet major to perform in their senior year.)
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Author: William
Date: 2004-10-10 15:57
The "voice" of experiance here. Some time ago--in the 80s, I think--I had my vintage Selmer Balanced Action alto sax sent in for replating as the original lacquer had worn and simply looked terrible. In spite of its apperance, however, the sax always played with a rich warm sound, so typical of the best Selmers of that era. However, when it came back--looking extremely sharp with its new coat of lacquer (only one dipping, I was told)--it sounded so bad that I had to check its serial numbers to convince myself it was indeed the same alto that I sent in. (it was) Now, with the passage of years and the re-deteriorization of the new lacquer--plus some custom work on the neck--it has mostly returned to its original sound (at least, I think so). The great accoustics and intonational qualities remained unchanged after the new plating proceedure. It was just the sound that was--in a word--"dead".
For my vintage Selmer BA sax, the new plating of lacquer DID make a big difference in the sound and a negative one, at that. Since then, I have been told by many tech people as well as most good sax players, that one should never relacquer an older looking Selmer whose lacquer has worn, simply to make it look better. The sound always suffers. It is best to leave it "as is" and enjoy that great original Selmer sound with the "factory" lacquer left "as is". The last itme I saw Josh Reddman live--here in Madison--he was playing of a Selmer VI on which all of the lacquer had been removed. He said the resulting tone was much warmer that way. Of course, most of his sound is simply "himself"--but lacquer, original vs re-plate and removal does make a difference in the quality of the instruments sound. Lacquer??--simply, "Let it be, let it be".
Post Edited (2004-10-10 16:19)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-10-10 16:18
I'll go contrary - the plating does make a difference. On trumpets there is the brand Monet which may look horendous but the lack of plating is their "trademark"
It's said to be among the very best of the best trumpets made.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-10-10 19:27
Wow, Terry, I think I'll try your method, perhaps it will increase my longevity, [which ain't bad now], as with Mrs. Winchester, in San Jose, CA, who continued [all her life?] to build on her mansion [from guns, y'know], many stairs etc [going nowhere !!] in fear of dying, as the legend goes. Visit it if you can, readers !! Fine comments, Wm, congrats on a BA [same as Paul D's ?], yes, my good friend /best sax repairer, asked my OK to re-laquer my M 6 tenor, saying it might change tonal color. That was beyond my skills tho ! Will have to check the sax web sites for answers? to our ?'s. MC/GBK would a Sax BB be desireable, in view of our interests ?? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-10-10 20:00
Don Berger wrote:
> MC/GBK would a
> Sax BB be desireable, in view of our interests ?? Don
An occasional saxophone question is permitted since there are many who do double on saxophone, however there already are a few very active and excellent saxophone bulletin boards on the web...GBK
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-10-10 21:19
Tks, GBK, I just didn't want to over-do my/our welcome to posting to our BB, which IMHO is the most user-friendly forum . I have done some mp/lig comparisons in the best "scientific methodology" I can generate, i.e., keep as many variables as possible constant. I could go on lengthely, BUT, briefly, trying to produce the most pleasing sounds [to me] playing that beautiful A S solo in Bizet's L'Arlesienne , I found that I preferred ligs of synthetic material, either a Rovner-type Turned Backwards [the rods on the reed edges ala Bonade] or an [inherited] K.H.S. Mus. Inst. Co. LTD plastic lig [does anyone know of this??] . With these, I found only slight diffs. among my 3 best mps, C**, a 1935-40s' Woodwind "Meliphone Special" K6 [my old D B fav] and the Sel D, which seemed to be the best in response/speaking, low on the horn. If anyone wishes more discussion, I'll be happy to join in. Off on a toot, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: VermontJM
Date: 2004-10-12 02:37
It would seem to me that the lacquer could have an effect, especially in terms of getting a horn re-laquered, but wouldn't the metal really make the difference? I mean the difference between a silver flute and gold flute really is a difference simply because of the metal. I noticed a major difference moving from just a solid silver headjoint to an entirely silver flute.
So what about the stain on a clarinet? Can that affect the tone? (Especially if it is sloppily done like many are today... ) I was hearing complaints from my tech guy about E11s having the stain simply painted on, not stained... he said that whne doing repairs (especially cracks) that the stains would flake off and leave a blonde spot of wood where the repair was done. He's a great a repair guy and know he is doing the work well... has anyone else heard of this problem?
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-10-12 14:57
A stain, by definition, is a thin, penetrating wash of color used to change the general tone of a wooden object. It differs from paint in that the paint pigment is a solid coat of material laid down on the surface being painted. Stains soak into the porous structure of wood, paints ride on top of same.
From the woodworking experience that I've tapped into over the years, a stain uses from one tenth to one one hundredth the volume/weight of materials compared to a coat of paint. Both add color, but one adds coverage with an added penalty of weight in the bargain.
(Since lacquer (in saxophone terms) is a translucent coat of paint, similar proportions would probably apply. I don't know about the difference in mass between a coat of lacquer (not applied to the majority of the interior of the horn, by the way ) and plating, however. Relative to each other, the plating is very thin compared to the thickness of the lacquer.)
I won't categorically state that the addition of a given amount of weight of anything to a vibrating tube wouldn't change the characteristics of same. Your gold versus silver flute example shows this as well. However, the added amount of mass of a properly applied stain to a piece of wood would have minimal potential to affect the overall mass of the tube.
Once again, a rigorous set of experiments would set all of this to rest pretty quickly. That no one is willing to conduct them is a good indication of how little humankind really cares about the problem...
As for me, I'd just settle for general acceptance of the more or less identical tonal quality of the A and Bb clarinets. There's one that you can put your curious minds to testing toute suite...
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-10-12 15:08
Then there's the view that material doesn't make a difference at all with the Clarinet. (back to Clarinet)
So if material doesn't make a difference, than how could stain or the outside material make one???
I don't subscribe to the view that material doesn't make a difference, but the view is common among the "scientists".
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-10-12 16:06
Gosh, I've always thot that it was generally accepted that an A cl was less 'bright' in tone character compared to the Bb, and in turn to the 'brighter' C and Eb, even when playing the same notes [in diff. registers as needed]. Perhaps it's more in the length of tube, going down to the Bassets, Eb Alto, bass etc, even discounting the diffs. made by mp/reed combos. Thots on this momentous question ? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: William
Date: 2004-10-12 16:07
This goes to material and its effect on tone color. While a college student back in the 60s, the flute professor (formerly assistant principal to Kincade in Ormandy's Philadelphia Orchestra and successor as Principal) demonstrated the difference in sound between his solid gold flute vs his solid platinum--both Verne Powell hand made "one of a kind" products made specifically for him. And in the confines of his small studio, there was a very subtile difference that I could notice. The gold was much warmer than the platinum. Why?? Neither of us really understood. I can't say for certain that it wasn't just the accoustical difference inherant in all "identical" instruments, but then again, Professor Cole said that they "played the same", just sounded different. However, for his serious playing, he always seemed to be using either the platinum or one of his sliver models--again, all hand made by Verne Powell, "just for him".
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Author: johnsonfromwisconsin
Date: 2004-10-13 14:26
This topic is controversial. Some say there is no difference, but it makes sense to me that the container of the bore vibrates along with the air column and can induce a sort of resonative feedback into the vibrating air-stream which will have some effect on the shape of the sound wave. Platings or lacquer can possibly effect the vibration by different inhibations to this feedback. To what degree this happens, I can't quantify. In many cases it might not make an objective audible difference to the human ear. In some cases it might, but in order to truley say so, you'd have to isolate all other factors, which would be quite difficult given the fact that one can't say any two horns are completely "identical".
Personally, I like gold or certain honey laquered horns for it's looks. Lacquer is the cheapest alternative and modern lacquer is usually reasonably durable, long-lasting, and easy to clean. Of course, I think a competently done silver plating which has been clear-lacquered over is quite nice as well. I tend not to like black laquers as it's too novel. Bare brass just feels to gritty and dirty to me.
-JfW
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-10-15 03:08
Brass receives a coating to prevent oxidization over time.
"Bare" brass instruments generally receive at least some wax polish.
Unprotected brass joints are prone to corrosion and may loosen to the point of developing a leak in seams. Buffing of the brass chassis may remove material around the toneholes, and overspray may alter the internal dimensions also.
Manufacturers are smart enough to recognize the marketing potential of this kind of thinking - at the expense of the player, of course.
I would be more inclined to think the cleanliness of the instrument's interior and key heights would affect tone.
This line of reasoning can be taken to extremes, including even the finish on ligatures. Spend money on lessons for a faster return...
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