 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fredackerman
Date: 2004-01-21 17:03
I know, this has been covered before...but! What Clarinet did the great Goodman play? Did he have many different ones or did he stick to just one brand/model? What was his setup? While I'm in the Benny Goodman mood, what are the very best CD's out there for me to purchase? Yes, I did search, but I want current thinking. Anyone? Thank you all,
Fred
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-01-21 17:15
Benny Goodman used at least four different clarinets at various stages of his career. He used a Selmer Balanced Tone, a Selmer Centered Tone, a Boosey and Hawkes 1010, and even (briefly) a Buffet. The Buffet is on display in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in the musical instrument collection.
from "The Clarinet" - vol 14 no 1 - Fall 1986 -Interview with Benny Goodman on July 28, 1976 by Ralph Strouf:
Ralph: "Mr Goodman, what kind of mouthpiece do you play on?"
Benny: "Well, I think this says Hawthorne. I picked it up in England and its a fine mouthpiece. I have a better one at home someplace but I can't seem to find it." ...GBK
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-01-21 17:15
BG played a Selmer during his glory years -- probably a BT. He switched around a lot, and I know he played Buffets, too, particularly on classical recordings near the end of his life, which show the Buffet on the cover photos.
After he worked with Reginald Kell in the 1950s, he switched, at least for a while, to a large-bore B&H. I have an album that shows him playing the B&H -- you can tell by the smooth rings on the barrel -- and also with Kell's characteristic ligature position, with the screws at about 10:30, on the upper side of the mouthpiece so that only two horizontal bands of metal touched the reed.
There are a million BG collections, which I'll leave it to others to sort through. One set you should have is the "Jazz At The Philharmonic" box, which features all the greats.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-01-21 17:22
Benny was one of those types of players who really could not be imititated...he had a large bright sort of sound that cut like a knife...I think his instruments said very little about the way he played...he had a style of playing all his own....
David Dow
Post Edited (2004-01-21 17:23)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-01-21 17:49
I have a copy of "Benny, King of Swing" many pics, some 60 pgs of written "history", prob a golden source for "question answering". One of the best pics showing clars is a 1927 [Powell Band era] showing what I believe is a Selmer R adio I mproved 18/7 [artic C#/G# + Eb/Bb [fork] ring]. I have an RI full Boehm, both have RI under the Sel logo on UJ. Just got thru tweaking my FB, sure plays well, it really speaks with a wide tip mp!!! Its one of a very few of his "added-key" cls, evident from pics. I will look further for you, Fred! Otherwise, I suggest dating his recordings and look up what Selmer models correspond, I dont recall any LeBlancs ever mentioned, and only the brief "flirtation" with Buffets. I'll bet Selmer kept him supplied with their newest cls [also Artie etc] for the advertising value! Will report findings, more ?'s?? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-01-21 18:56
Almost all of the early pics, 1945?-, show the lig screws on the reed. One was on top [too early for a Bonade invert I believe]. Many of the later pics show the 10:30 screw position, partic the classic/reh/perf pics. The only cl/model ref I found [quick scan] was a reproduced letter from Woody Allen [? a source of cl info??] 1972, sending 2 photos of a Selmer and an album cover, asking "What I want to get is an old Selmer with a swan's neck octave key and rollers on the pinkie keys.---- Hoping to hear----" Doubt any pertinency. Ah, nostalgia? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2004-01-22 01:38
God love BG, cuss that he reportedly was. He and his records got me started in this whole mess.
I recognize Artie Shaw as a greater virtuoso, but only by a handsbreadth or so. I guess just because his tone was a little more plastic and alive to my ear.
But BG was there first. When hardly anybody who wasn't a native of New Orleans could play worthy jazz on a clarinet, he was doing it, and a mere teenager at that.
Not to mention his key role in redefining big band music – on a nationally sponsored program no less. "Let's Dance" did for pop music in 1935 what "Saturday Night Live" did for comedy in 1975: aprés lui, le déluge.
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Author: magritte
Date: 2004-01-22 01:50
Anyone who doesn't have "The Famous 1938 CARNEGIE HALL JAZZ CONCERT" should get it. It is a recording of one of the most fabulous musical events in history. It was the first album I ever bought in about 1950 (age 12), a boxed set of little 45 rpm records. Fifty-four years and thousands of records later, it is still the best album I have. Yes, I still have the original boxed set, but now I listen to a recent CD version.
Next to the Carnegie Hall recordings, I most enjoy a 6 CD boxed set of "THe Complete Small Group Recrdings". Hours of incredible life-changing music!
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Author: fredackerman
Date: 2004-01-22 06:11
Well, this has been one expensive posting for me! I ordered everything you guys suggested, even a used copy of "Benny King of Swing". Thank you Amazon.com. and thank all of you. Interesting how Benny Goodman wasn't as concerned about his mouthpiece as most of us. Clarinet books stress that the mp and setup is of the uppermost importance, yet look at the master! OK, I know that he knew what worked for him, but from my reading around the web, he did seem a bit indifferent. When I hold and play my BT, I feel nostalgia about a past that I never experience...I can dream, can't I? Maybe Mr. Goodman didn't need Greg Smith and his wonderful mouthpieces, I need all the help I can get!
Fred
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-01-22 13:46
SWK hits the nail on the head with references to Slam Stewart and CC. I still have my old 78rpm Sextet albumn with Slam on "bowed bass"....China Boy et al. I have to agree that BG was probably the greatest influence in the clarinet world during the 20th Cent. And so interesting that near or at the height of his career he wanted to sound like Kell! But....before BG was Sidney Bechet who was totally self-taught and who produced a sound that no one has duplicated yet. He couldn't read a note, frequently played with rubber bands replacing broken springs, played with "false teeth" and at least once fashioned a reed from a hunk of wood. He carried his clarinet in his pants and coat pockets. Oh, and he more than once purchased his horns in pawn shops! Go figure!
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2004-01-22 14:40
It was just that casual approach that led Bechet, in about 1919, to become the first jazz musician to experiment seriously with the saxophone...when he found an old soprano...in a pawn shop.
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Author: William
Date: 2004-01-22 15:12
"Maybe Mr. Goodman didn't need Greg Smith and his wonderful mouthpieces". I think he relied more on personal practice than particular equipement. (But with Greg's mpcs, it might have been easier for Goodman to be good)
Legend also has it that Artie Shaw would go into a local music store, pick the first mouthpiece he saw, and then reface it himself until he liked it. And he respected Benny's technique--but comparing himself to BG, Artie reportedly said, "Benny played the clarinet, but I played music".
As for BG recordings, in addition to all of those mentioned above, I like the "Mission to Moscow", especially for the great players he had in his band.
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Author: Anders
Date: 2004-01-22 18:06
Of major importance is his Columbia recording of "Contrasts" with Szigeti and Bartok. It may still be available as a CD on the Pearl label. Also, I like the late Weber and Nielsen concerto recordings with the CSO on RCA -- for their palpable sense of struggle and engagement, even though they undoubtedly yield to others on technical grounds.
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Author: fredackerman
Date: 2004-01-22 18:29
William, Yes, you're correct on the Greg Smith mpcs vis-a-vis Benny Goodman. I just checked on the Mission To Moscow number, it was written by Mel Powell [Goodmans pianist] in 1942. Glenn Miller used it to show off the Clarinet skills of Peanuts Hucko.... Love dat name!
Fred
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-01-22 18:39
Goodman's original Columbia recording of the Bartok Contrasts is still available on the Pearl label.
Sample listening tracks (with Windows Media Player) here:
http://shopping.yahoo.com/p_clarinet-classics_music_1921586392;_ylt=Aj6ahHSatOG_dUhiNg33xugbFt0A?&clink=dmps/goodman_contrasts/ctx=mid:2,pid:1921586392,pdid:2,pos:1,spc:14489115,date:20040122,srch:kw,x:1,test:DFLT&__yltc=s:14489115,d:95951113,sec:sr,slk:img,ppos:1,pos:1,pdid:2,id:1921586392,lt:4,v:70,test:DFLT,src:PS1,tr:1,k:goodman+contrasts ...GBK
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Author: William
Date: 2004-01-22 20:41
I meant to refer to the entire "Benny Goodman in Moscow" LP album--not just the tune "Mission to Moscow"--as worth the listen. Lots of great sidemen and classic Goodman. My first mistake of the New Year--and if your believe that..........
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-01-23 06:20
Anders, GBK: The "Contrasts" mentioned is indeed the original cast recording, as Bartok wrote it for Goodman, Szigeti, and himself. No better recording of it was ever made. My opinion, as well as that of many others.
I am indebted to GBK for "turning me on" to that recording, for which I thank him again. Also, cheers to GBK for having posted what is so far the longest URL of the year on this Bulletin Board,
Speaking of "original cast," Goodman playing the Copland Concerto with string orchestra conducted by Copland is also very fine.
Oh, yes: Bechet? He could play just about any instrument without trying hard -- and seemed to enjoy them all. Bechet even made at least one recording playing a sarrusophone.
Regards,
John
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-01-23 12:29
It's difficult for me to try to make of what Artie is claimed to have said about BG since many great artists tend to downplay the skills of their competitors. Refacing mouthpieces oneself can be a bit more costly than reworking reeds.....but maybe it's worthwhile in the long run....maybe since there's more to a good playing mp than the "facing". There's no doubt that BG was technically very proficient, still, by comparison to some others past and present I seem to find his playing somewhat mechanical. But I do enjoy his groups.
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2004-01-25 01:09
Shaw has had few kind words to say about most of his contemporaries. He's too uncompromising to make nice, and some of the best music ever played is not good enough for him. This is a guy whose standards got so high that he found he was losing his humanity trying to reach them - and rather than keep being the already-great artist he was (still a copout to him), he quit playing completely and never looked back.
Post Edited (2004-01-25 01:12)
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Author: Clarence
Date: 2004-01-25 03:43
This thing about Artie Shaw having unkind words about Benny Goodman has me baffled.
I've listened to alot of Benny and some Artie.
With what I know of both, I'd say Artie was a bigger legend in his own mind than in reality.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2007-08-15 18:13
While going through some of my recently departed mother's belongings I found this nice shot of Mom and the King of Swing, and an accompanying newspaper article she wrote in the Bridgeport Post (Connecticut) from July 1945 describing the Goodman's appearance at the Pleasure Beach Ballroom the previous night.
http://aycu24.webshots.com/image/25743/2004846243575513467_rs.jpg
Post Edited (2007-08-15 18:16)
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Author: William
Date: 2007-08-15 18:31
Kilo--how much did he charge her for this "one-the-spot" lesson?? LOL
Nice pic--BTW.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2007-08-15 18:54
lol — actually, she was inspired to take up the instrument because of his music and her clarinet became my first horn, a "LaRue", made in Czechoslovakia.
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-08-15 19:04
"Kilo--how much did he charge her for this "one-the-spot" lesson?? LOL"
Wow that's a good eye. you can tell in the picture that he's just pointing to where each finger should go. that's a cool picture indeed!
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: William
Date: 2007-08-15 20:03
" she was inspired to take up the instrument because of his music"
Benny also inspired me to practice and learn to play better--initially, like him and then, later on, better than him. Never reached that second goal, nor the first, for that matter (at least, for jazz). But it has been a lot of fun trying.
(btw, made the decision to play clarinet on my own in third grade because, with all those shinny keys and many pieces, it looked so interesting...........)
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Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2007-08-15 20:15
Benny Goodman has always been my inspiration. The Carnegie Hall CD's are my favorite ones, and the energy from the musicians is just unbelievable. My thoughts about Artie Shaw are these. I liked his small group better than the big band sound. But, in the long run, he didn't leave nearly as much music out there for us to listen to now as Benny did. I read articles about how hard Benny was to get along with, and that part of his personality doesn't match his beautiful horn playing! I have also read that he was a savant. Perhaps that was the reason for the bad moods.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2007-08-17 13:42
Kilo, thanks for the shot of your mom & Benny. It really captures an era, for me. Benny was a major influence for me growing up, and growing into the clarinet. My favorite set of recordings from back then was something called the "Benny Goodman Treasure Chest," three LPs of air checks from his regular radio broadcasts. I wore out one set all during junior high and high school, and recently picked up another set on e(Cough cough). I've never seen the package converted to cd, but you could still find a set of the LPs, I'm sure, if you're so inclined. It has plenty of big-band stuff, including both flag-wavers and fairly routine arrangements (all executed flawlessly) and has the small groups as well, including a few Charlie Christian things. (the one big flaw with the set is some dubbed-in-later applause between all of the tracks, probably added to cover ambient crowd noise etc. in the radio studio. Like having a house next to the railroad tracks, it's just something you get used to.)
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Author: kilo
Date: 2007-08-17 20:32
Glad I posted the picture! We had a bunch of Goodman LP's in the house, and I think my favorite was an RCA recording, "The Benny Goodman Orchestra Plays Eddie Sauter Arrangements", which I still have — music at a very advanced level yet so accessible! Having played a few of the original Goodman hits in a big band I have immense respect for the proficiency of the swing musicians and for Benny, an exacting taskmaster to be sure but listen to the result. There's a "crispness" to the classic Goodman sound that seems almost effortless.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-08-18 10:17
Thanks, Chris. My fave BG cd is "Slipped Disc 1945-46". I also have a 45 or two with Helen Ward I like. The Carnegie Hall is Tops.
Bob Draznik
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The Clarinet Pages
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