 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2003-05-28 02:05
I'm playing the Gran Partita in a few weeks. Every time I've played it there's a fight about how to play the grace notes in the 1st movement-some want to play two equal eighth notes while others say that since the grace notes are written as sixteenths they should be very fast. Some want to play them before the beat and others after. Comments please from people with knowledge and experience in these matters.
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-05-28 03:37
They are played as four even semiquavers (16th notes) - it is the classical way. My reference: Ornaments and Abbreviations, by Dr William Lovelock.
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Author: Andy
Date: 2003-05-28 11:38
Go Lovelock, one of Australia's wonderful slightly forgotten composers of yester year that hopefully will stay slightly forgotten!
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-05-28 12:33
diz- do you mean that the first 16th should be played ON the beat, ie. accented? Harnoncourt, in his book "The Musical Dialogue" contradicts this, and says that Mozart always wrote out such passages.
"Mozart evidently was well aware of how difficult it is to recognise the passages in which these short appoggiaturas have to be inserted and so always wrote them out in long notes. I know of no passage in Mozart's works where short appoggiaturas are required but not written out. In the case of Mozart, therefore, it is unnecessary and incorrect to play short accented appoggiaturas where they are not indicated. This is one of the the most frequent and grievous mistakes, and has given to many works of Mozart a strangely motoric, aggressive effect, as if they were Hungarian music in which the first syllable must always be emphasized".
According to Harnoncourt the grace notes in this piece should be played before the beat.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-05-28 12:35
diz, just read your post again and you spoke about FOUR 16ths. Perhaps we're not talking about the same passage? I think Elmo's talking about the grace note that appears in the main theme of the 1st Allegro. Sorry, don't have my score with me, so I can't check out the bar number.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-05-28 13:43
Dan Leeson is the great authority on the Bb Serenade -- he edited it for the Neue Mozart Ausgabe (New Mozart Edition). He follows the Klarinet list very closely and will respond to queries within the hour.
He's in his 70s and rather crotchety. Refer to it by his preferred spelling, "Gran Partitta" (with the double "t"), and don't even think about using a contrabassoon, and he'll be in heaven.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-05-28 23:21
In the first movement our ensemble played the grace notes before the beat.....somehow it sounds much more intense with the grace notes preceding the beat.
David Dow
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-01-23 20:07
How about in measures 46 (bsthn 1), 56 (clarinet 1), 57 (oboes, bsthn 1), 97 (clarinets), 170 (clarinet 1), 180 (bsthn 1), 181 (clarinets), 182 (oboes)?
Should these be played short, before the beat? My group thinks they should be played on the beat, long.
The Editorial Note to the Baerenreiter/NMA score is confusing, since only appoggiaturas noted in a certain fashion (with a bracketed eighth note printed above the note in the score) should be considered short, yet there are no such examples in the score that I can find - thus, they should all be played long.
Post Edited (2006-01-23 20:12)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2006-01-24 06:01
Having read a few books on performance practice, it is clear to me that there is still no agreement regarding how to perform these notes. Various treatises from the time have conflicting instructions, which doesn't help.
Regarding these passages in the Gran partita, what the Bärenreiter are trying to say is that Mozart wrote all appogiaturas with sideways lines through the stems similar to the way that we would notate an acciacatura today. When he used this notation, he always was specific regarding the length of these notes (i.e. 16th, 8th, etc.) This is one argument for performing these appogiaturas on the beat.
larryb- when you say "long", I presume you mean approximately the length of a 16th?
A good argument for performing these short and before the beat is that Mozart sometimes writes out the rhythm '16th - dotted 8th', eg. bar 92. Why would he write that out if he intended the appogiaturas to be played in the same way?
But the truth is that no-one really knows how Mozart wanted these appogiaturas to be performed (not even Dan Leeson!), and does it really matter? The music is great whichever way you play it. Happy partita-ing to those playing it this weekend!
Post Edited (2006-01-24 06:01)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2006-01-24 06:03
By the way- I have a facsimile copy of the autograph of this piece, so I'd be happy to have a look into it if anybody has any questions.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-01-24 11:26
Liquorice,
thanks for your insight.
I know we will be in Nirvani playing the GP - more so when we agree on the appogiaturas, which we will.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-01-24 14:39
If this weren't Mozart, I'd say that the isssue is debateable, but I think Wolfie was fastidious about writing his ornamentation. Look, for another example, at the turns in the "Kegelstaadt" trio --they are written out 1/32nd notes.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Mark G. Simon
Date: 2006-01-24 15:10
I asked Neal Zaslaw about this once, and I wish I could reproduce his answer. . He talked about poetic meter, dance rhythms and who knows what before concluding that it should be played short and before the beat. (the opening theme of the allegro that is)
Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana--Mediocrates (2nd cent. BC)
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Author: John25
Date: 2006-01-24 17:42
I have played the Grand Partita more than 60 times (mostly on basset-horn). Here in the UK the usual practice is to play the notes fast, with the first one on the beat. I think I have been asked to play them as two quavers (8th notes) only once.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2006-01-25 06:29
Bob Phillips wrote: "If this weren't Mozart, I'd say that the isssue is debateable, but I think Wolfie was fastidious about writing his ornamentation"
So how would you play the appogiatura in bar 7 of the adagio of Mozart's Clarinet Concerto?
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-01-25 08:07
Liquorice - on the beat, as a semiquaver. I also tend to delay the start of the last semiquaver of the bar very slightly:
semiquaver E
quaver-and-just-a- bit-more D
just-less-than-a-semiquaver C
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2006-01-25 11:47
Yes David, that's how almost everybody plays it. I actually think that there is a strong case for playing it before the beat, although I find both versions acceptable. I was just wondering what Bob thought, because he believes that Mozart always wrote out ornaments rhythmically.
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