 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2016-10-17 03:56
As the librarian for our community band, I assumed that both the Baritone BC and Baritone TC are in the same key. We're going to play Seussa's Sabre and Spurs next semester and we're playing the Brion/Schissel arrangement. Unfortunately, it doesn't have a Baritone TC part, only the BC, which none of our baritone players can read as they're all ex-trumpet players. I did, however, find the Baritone TC part on imslp, but it's in a different key than the Baritone BC part. I assumed it would need to be transposed. How wrong I was! Now I'm wondering WHY the BC and TC Baritones are in two different keys! This makes no sense to me. Can any of you music folks explain this to me? I've read the Wikipedia article about baritones, but I must confess that it doesn't fully answer my question. THANK YOU!
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-10-17 04:49
You don't say what the keys are. But if the TC part is a step higher, it's because Baritone TC parts are treated as transposing parts - the transposition is a ninth up, like a tenor sax. BC parts are written at concert pitch.
The reason this is done is because the parts exist mostly for converted trumpet players who never learned to read bass clef (like the ones in your band) and who are used to fingerings based on a C scale (open - no valves - is C). The TC parts are equivalent in key and octave to a trumpet part. Players who come from the trombone/tuba world to baritone horn read bass clef and are used to playing a system based on Bb where 1st position/no valves is Bb.
Karl
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2016-10-17 11:25
Some baritone and euphonium players, myself included, can read both clefs natively. Treble clef has the advantage of far fewer ledger lines to deal with. On a typical flip-folio Sousa/Fillmore march part, for example, this makes for much easier reading.
The same can be said of tenor clef, where concert pitch notes appear at the same staff positions as they do with transposed treble clef parts for B-flat instruments. A treble clef player of any B-flat instrument can thus subtract two flats from the key signature of a tenor clef part, and read it directly as a treble clef part. This is akin to a bass clef part being played on a contra-alto clarinet or baritone sax by subtracting three flats from the key signature, and reading the part as if TC.
This is handy not just for baritone players--bassoon, trombone/euphonium, and 'cello parts written in tenor clef can easily be played on bass clarinets and bass saxophones.
But I digress--anyone serious about the baritone is a bass clef player. Tell those ex-trumpeters to get off their bums and learn BC...slackers!
Post Edited (2016-10-17 11:37)
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2016-10-17 17:46
I think British brass band music has baritone parts written in treble clef without transposition.
MojoMP.com
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MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2016-10-17 18:24
Roxann
You might want to check out the Community Music forum; information about it is at http://community-music.info/
It is a Yahoo group that is populated mostly by community band directors and members. You may be able to find someone who has already transcribed that part for treble clef.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-10-17 18:58
Roxanne, I just checked the parts on IMSLP. The treble clef part there is correct and identical to the bass clef part that follows it. If you're using that version, the TC part on IMSLP will be fine. If you're using a more modern edition, you might still be able to use the IMSLP part as long as the edition you have is still in (concert) F major. There might be differences in what the baritone plays between the marching version on IMSLP and a new concert edition, so you should check that.
Karl
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2016-10-17 22:38
I've been enlightened! The baritone TC is in Bb so it has the same fingerings as the Bb trumpets. That way, trumpeters-turned-baritone players don't have to learn new fingerings! That makes a lot of sense! One of our band members finally told me that he owns Finale! so I forwarded the Baritone BC Christmas music to him and he very quickly transposed them to TC.
I WILL check out the Community Music forum. Thanks for your help, everybody!
I'm all the time learning new things on BBoards! Hopefully, some day I'll figure out the tuba and how the same tuba can be a bunch of different keys!
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Author: Chris_C ★2017
Date: 2016-10-17 22:48
.... but I have never understood why Belgian/Dutch arrangements in addition to having euphonium/tuba parts in Bb TC - which work for the reasons above - also have parts in Bb BC and Eb BC. When we receive such parts we throw them away to avoid confusion.
In a brass band all the parts are in Eb or Bb TC for transposing instruments, except for the bass trombone, which is in concert pitch BC.
... and we shoudl not be diverted by "Dflat piccolo" parts, which are for a piccolo in B, using the convention for all other transposing instruments.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2016-10-17 23:47
Chris, I've never heard of BC parts written for transposing instruments.
It comes to mind that a tubist could use CC tuba fingerings on a BB-flat tuba with the B-flat BC parts. Given that CC tubas are primarily a North American convention, this would be of negligible value to Dutch and Belgian tubists, where BB-flat, F, and E-flat tubas reign.
In other words...I'd throw them away too--or use them to set a pile of D-flat piccolo parts ablaze!
Post Edited (2016-10-17 23:51)
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2016-10-18 00:40
A lot of the music from imslp includes Db piccolo, Eb tuba and other very strange instrumentations...I guess that's what happens when you use music that's 100+ years old!
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Author: Chris_C ★2017
Date: 2016-10-19 01:27
Modern Molenaar arrangements, for example, often come with BC Eb parts. As well as BC Bb tuba parts, Euphonium come in BC Bb, and I've even seen BC Bb trombone parts.
It's important to throw them away (unless you are based in Belgium or Netherlands, of course!), or some very strange noises appear when they are accidentally played....
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2016-10-19 02:15
To add to the confusion, I often encounter the following "pairs" in my scores. (I am the librarian for a local youth band)
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"Baritone" -> Key in C, Bass Clef
"Euphonium" -> Key in Bb, Treble Clef
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"Tuba" -> Key in C, Bass Clef
"Bb Bass" -> Key in Bb, Treble Clef
"Eb Bass" -> Key in Eb, Treble Clef
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Bones usually come in C/BC but on the back side of the note sheet there's often a Bb/TC version.
I've come across "Bb Bass" notes in Bb/BC, for "Bb Baritone" in Bb/BC and for "Bb Trombone" in Bb/BC.
(I know the Baritone is not 100% the same as an Euphonium, but in my situation, most of the time the notes are 100% the same)
It's a jungle out there.
--
Ben
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-10-19 06:55
tictactux wrote:
> ---
> Bones usually come in C/BC but on the back side of the note
> sheet there's often a Bb/TC version.
>
There was a time when valve trombones were in more common use and - probably (I never had a valve trombonist in any of the student groups I taught) - they were also favored mostly by trumpet players who wanted to transfer both their clef and their fingerings from the trumpet to the trombone.
Karl
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