 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: redwine
Date: 2007-10-23 19:08
Hello,
We're playing the above piece in concert in November. I'm playing the c clarinet part. In my opinion, the c clarinet part is poorly conceived. In looking at the part, it seems that to play it on e-flat clarinet would be better in every problem the c part imposes. So, I'm in the process of transposing it into Sibelius. It occurred to me that perhaps someone has already done this work. If so, I'd be willing to pay you for the part (if it's entered in a computer program, or if your manuscript is extremely neat). Oh well, in the case that noone has, I'll continue to input the material. It's going slowly!
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2007-10-23 19:36
The C part is hard, no question, but it's on C for a reason. Seeing as he'd already taken the trouble to write for basset horn, bass and two B flats, and was not against using the Eb in other works, I can see no justifiable reason for playing it on Eb when he writes for C.
It'll completely change the feel of much of the work, especially the second movement.
Save yourself the effort, and spend the time on the part.
(disclaimer...please note extreme change in attitude from this poster as regards the use of C clarinet, I've done lots of research in to using different clarinets in recent times...everything posted some years ago I now completely retract, and I own one)
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Author: redwine
Date: 2007-10-23 20:39
Hello,
I read it in rehearsal today on c clarinet. The part is not difficult technically, but rather is in an impossible range, having to play extremely high a-flats, gs, etc. at pianissimo, with decrescendo. Believe me, I go out of my way to play my c clarinet because the opportunities are few and far between. This piece simply should have been written for e-flat clarinet. So, thanks for the advice (which didn't answer my question), but if anyone has the part transposed, I would love to hear about it. I will be playing this piece on e-flat clarinet. I'm finishing the last movement now (having skipped the first movement because I wrote that one out by hand on a bus trip yesterday), but still have considerable "cleaning up" of the Sibelius file to add slurs, etc., so it's not too late. Thanks!
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2007-10-23 20:55
"This piece simply should have been written for Eb clarinet".
I see no evidence for this...as I said, the C part is hard...for the reasons that you mention.
I have never seen or heard the C part played on Eb clarinet, that for me speaks volumes.
Sorry for not answering your question, maybe I should have said I think you'll struggle to find the C part written out for Eb...because it's simply wrong.
Go on...play it on C, you want to really...
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Author: redwine
Date: 2007-10-23 21:12
Hello,
I've played it on c. I really want to play it on e-flat, and will. Sorry if you think I'm wrong, but you obiously have the option to not come to my concert. Noone can know for sure, but my guess is that when Herr Strauss wrote this piece, there wasn't an e-flat player in town, or surely he would have (after painstakingly studying the part from both c and e-flat perspectives).
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: DougR
Date: 2007-10-24 00:57
Ben,
I gather this is the 'Frohliche Werkstatt"? Hope you're having fun with it--I'd love to play these pieces (the 'Aus der Werkstat eines Invaliden' being the other piece) but you'd need a real crowd of first-rate (and highly motivated) wind players, and that's beyond my resources, I'm afraid.
Where are you doing it & when & with whom? Are you gonna YouTube any of it?
regards,
doug R
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Author: larryb
Date: 2007-10-24 03:29
You should check with Dan Leeson. I think he's done some transposing of parts to make things easier (notably: the G Basset Horn part from one of Mozart's Notturni).
Just post your request and reasoning to the Klarinet List, and I'm sure he'll offer his help.
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Author: redwine
Date: 2007-10-24 13:02
Hello,
This is the Frohliche Werkstatt. We're performing it on Nov. 2nd with the US Naval Academy Band, with Rodney Winther (from the Cincinnati Conservatory) guest conducting. I didn't think of YouTubing, but I did just get a new video camera, maybe that would be interesting, if I can talk my wife into running the camera. The piece is very good, I'm not sure I would call it great, but a piece written originally for band by such a preeminent composer is rewarding to play.
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-24 18:32
Didn't R.Strauss actually write some music for Eb clarinet?
Bob Draznik
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Author: kenb
Date: 2007-10-24 20:33
Given that Strauss had a terrific ear for tone colour, no doubt he wanted the C clarinet sound on his pallete and, as the piece was written for a wind group in Vienna, scaring up an Eb probably wouldn't have been a problem if Strauss had had that sound in mind.
Now the other side of the coin: When conducting, Strauss would sometimes rev up the tempi in the 2nd half of an opera so he could get to his card game on time (George Szell). Pure speculation of course, but if it came to the crunch, someone with such a delicious sense of priorities probably wouldn't chuck a wobbly if an Eb instead of C clarinet were employed in the Happy Workshop.
I've seen a set Boosey & Hawkes hire parts with a well-worn handwritten Eb part included. I would guess it's been performed more often on Eb, given the availability of decent C clarinets in the past.
Post Edited (2008-12-04 05:05)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2007-10-24 22:19
Speaking of Strauss conducting, has anyone seen the video of him conducting Till Eulenspiegel with Vienna? I think at one point he checks the time on his watch...
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Author: redwine
Date: 2007-10-26 20:34
Hello,
Just an update. I had my second rehearsal yesterday (after writing out my part for the e-flat). What a much more enjoyable piece to play on an appropriate clarinet. Everything about the piece is easier, the keys, the range, everything. I could finally concentrate on making music instead of trying to make the clarinet play the extreme high a-flat in tune, etc. So, I stand by my initial assessment that the piece should have been written for e-flat to begin with. All of you purists can wait for your rotary dial phone to ring for the next gig...
By the way, I had two kind posters offer to send me transposed e-flat parts, but I was far enough in my transposition to decline. Thank you both, anyhow. If you find yourself in the position to play this piece, do try to find an e-flat transposition (I'll be glad to share my work). After looking at both, then make your own decision as to which part and instrument you would like to perform it on.
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2007-10-27 15:47
redwine wrote:
>> So, I stand by my initial assessment that the piece should have been written for e-flat to begin with...if you find yourself in the position to play this piece, do try to find an e-flat transposition.>>
This is too much. Discerning lovers of Strauss's wonderful and highly characteristic C clarinet writing -- both in this and in other pieces, including his operas -- will certainly disagree.
In this particular case it's obvious that, far from having written the part for the wrong instrument, Strauss simply had the misfortune to get the wrong player.
Tony
Post Edited (2007-10-27 16:31)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2008-12-04 04:18
Could anyone send me a pdf of an eb part to this work? I'm playing it soon, and practice time is scarce as is.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-12-04 05:15
Back in October, 2007, larryb wrote:
"You should check with Dan Leeson. I think he's done some transposing of parts to make things easier (notably: the G Basset Horn part from one of Mozart's Notturni).
Just post your request and reasoning to the Klarinet List, and I'm sure he'll offer his help."
Oh you wicked man! Trying to set someone up for a hit!
Back in 2004 in a thread about this work on the Klarinet list, Dan Leeson actually wrote:
"One final thing. It calls for 1 C clarinet, 2 B-flat clarinets, 1
basset horn, and 1 bass clarinet. Don't even think about trying the
work with substitute instruments. I'd have to put out a contract on you
and the conductor should you not heed my admonition."
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-12-04 15:24
I really think this sounds like something you can fix by using alternate fingerings, rather than playing on a different instrument.
A really good Ab fingering (that speaks every time for me), for instance, is:
RT o x x | x o x F#/C#
Since learning that fingering, I NEVER fret about playing altissimo Ab...EVER!
For G I like these two, because they pretty much always work:
RT x o o | x x o Ab/Eb
RT x o o | x x x Ab/Eb
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Author: brycon
Date: 2008-12-04 15:41
I don't have access to a C clarinet, nor do I really want to buy one. Hence my asking...
Mrn, I have plenty of good fingerings. Have you tried keeping the fingerings in the same partial series? I usually play G like this: RT X o o o o o Ab/Eb and I usually play Ab like this: o o o X o o Ab/Eb
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-12-04 15:49
Considering how many players regularly play Strauss D clarinet parts on Eb (with 'Till Eulenspiegel' being the most obvious example), what harm can it do to play his C clarinet parts on Eb if it makes things easier for the player?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: redwine
Date: 2008-12-04 17:39
Hello Brycon,
Contact me off-line, if you still need the e-flat version.
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-12-05 01:01
brycon wrote:
<<I don't have access to a C clarinet, nor do I really want to buy one. Hence my asking...
Mrn, I have plenty of good fingerings. Have you tried keeping the fingerings in the same partial series? I usually play G like this: RT X o o o o o Ab/Eb and I usually play Ab like this: o o o X o o Ab/Eb>>
I actually use that G a lot, perhaps more than the two I mentioned. Never used that Ab before--I'll have to try it.
The reason I gave the two fingerings I did as suggestions, though, was because Ben said that the problem with this part (which, I must confess, I've never seen) was that the really high notes had to be played pp, and in my experience, these fingerings are more responsive at low dynamics than others I've tried. So I was offering this (or something similar) as a potential solution to anyone who wants to play the piece on the C clarinet.
By the way, I don't own a C clarinet, either. I usually transpose C parts to play on my Bb, although in this case I'm not sure if that would be such a good idea, either, because I know Strauss is somewhat particular. I'm not sure what I'd do in this case....I think it's probably easier to get a Bb clarinet to sound like a C if you use the right reed (maybe use a narrow reed) and "think bright and shrill" thoughts than it is to get an Eb to sound like a C, but I don't really know.
My solution would probably be to borrow a C clarinet player from the basset horn player. Anyone who owns their own basset horn probably has a whole collection of clarinets, and they won't mind loaning you one if it means it gives them a chance to play their basset horn they paid so much for. (And if they don't own a basset horn, then they know someone else who does, who probably has a whole collection of instruments they don't mind loaning out to others...because, after all, if they don't mind loaning out that expensive basset horn to someone, they won't mind loaning out a C clarinet, either) 
Post Edited (2008-12-05 01:02)
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2008-12-05 05:14
Permit me to relay an experience I had a few years ago which supports Ben's transposition of the C clarinet part.
In 2006 in Amsterdam I performed the premiere of a clarinet concerto by an up-and-coming Dutch composer, Robin DeRaaff (http://www.nl-berkshires.org/art/deRaaff.html).
In the concerto there is a section that is not only very high (constantly around high C) but also very fast.
For the premiere I played it on the Bb clarinet, as written, but for the North American premiere and the recording I transposed the very high fast part onto Eb Clarinet, without telling Robin (since he was in Amsterdam).
When he came to Montreal to hear the second performance he exclaimed, "I noticed you put the high section onto Eb Clarinet. It sounds much better that way and you compete better with the piccolo!"
I have worked closely with composers for nearly 20 years and every time I am given a part for A clarinet that doesn't go down to a low E I ask the composer to print out another part for Bb so I have one fewer instrument to take on tour. Not a single composer has minded.
Back when contributors to the klarinet list got into a lather when people asked about playing a passage on a clarinet different from what was specified, I thought I would ask the composers themselves to see what they thought. I asked many composers if they minded if their Bb parts were played on A clarinet or vice versa. Not a single composer minded, in fact some composers thought an objection to playing a part on a different instrument was, in one composer's words, "barmy".
I couldn't help wondering, if the composers don't mind if we play their parts on a clarinet other than the one specified (even, in the above case, *preferring* the change to what they wrote), where does the notion come from that a composer's instrumental indication is unchallengeably sacrosanct?
In my experience the notion does not come from composers.
------------------------------------------------------------
Simon Aldrich
Clarinet Faculty - McGill University
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre de l'Opera de Montreal
Artistic Director - Jeffery Summer Concerts
Clarinet - Nouvel Ensemble Moderne
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-12-05 05:50
Simon Aldrich wrote:
<<I couldn't help wondering, if the composers don't mind if we play their parts on a clarinet other than the one specified (even, in the above case, *preferring* the change to what they wrote), where does the notion come from that a composer's instrumental indication is unchallengeably sacrosanct?
In my experience the notion does not come from composers.>>
I tend to agree with you that--in general--we clarinetists tend to make a bigger deal about this thing than the composers probably would. I am led to believe that Copland was not particular about using Bb clarinets as opposed to A clarinets, for instance (I wrote about this a few weeks ago in another thread).
However....what I have read in several places indicates that Strauss and Mahler's use of the C clarinet is different in that these two composers chose to use C clarinets because they specifically wanted a particular type of sound. In other words, Strauss is an exception because he apparently really did care about this.
For me, anyway, it's not so much that the composer's instrumental indication is sacrosanct (indeed, I think some composers make mistakes in this regard), it's that in certain pieces by certain composers, where we know or are reasonably certain that a composer chose a particular instrument based on some unique quality of that instrument, we need to play on an instrument that allows us to produce the same or a similar type of sound as the composer intended, which is what the composer's indication suggests.
In other words, I think achieving a RESULT that complies with the composer's wishes is of paramount importance. How you do that is less important than what it sounds like in the end. In this case, I think if you can produce the kind of sound Strauss had in mind by using a Bb, let's say, instead of a C, that should be OK. On the other hand, if you NEED the C clarinet to make the music sound like what the composer wanted, then I think you should use it.
Post Edited (2008-12-08 15:24)
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Author: davyd
Date: 2008-12-05 18:48
Does the audience get a vote? As long as the part is played well, I can't imagine that the members of the audience who are not wind ensemble fanatics will know, or care, which instrument is used.
(Irrelevant digression deleted)
Post Edited (2008-12-05 20:55)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2008-12-05 19:39
Haha,
Mrn, take a look at the part and let me know if you would still prefer playing it on Bb rather than Eb!
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-12-05 22:30
brycon wrote:
> Haha,
>
> Mrn, take a look at the part and let me know if you would still
> prefer playing it on Bb rather than Eb!
Hey, I never said I'd prefer *playing* that piece on the Bb! I don't doubt that it's much, much easier to play on the Eb!
Like I said, in the very, very unlikely event anyone ever expects me to play the C clarinet part to this piece, I'd first try to find a C clarinet I could borrow/rent--can't be any harder than tracking down a basset horn!
Most of the time, I'd transpose any C part I got for Bb, but in this case, I take the experts at their word that when Strauss writes for C, that's because that's what he really wants. If I couldn't track down a C, but still needed to play this part, then I'd try to sound as C-like as possible with the equipment I had (and who knows--maybe that means juggling two clarinets instead of one--depends on what the part looks like).
So in this vein, I question whether, given enough practice time and prerequisite skill to pull it off (which I'm not going to claim to have, because I've never looked at this piece in my life), the part would sound more like what Strauss had in mind if played on a bright-sounding Bb than on an Eb. As I said, I don't really know the answer to that question, but that's my hypothesis. So far nobody has disagreed with that proposition, including you, so I'm assuming my intuition is right about this. (You see, I'm trying to learn from this experience, too.)
You won't hurt my feelings if you play this piece on an Eb. That may be the best solution/compromise for you (certainly makes the key signature easier--this piece is in Eb major, right?). It might be what I did, too, under the right set of circumstances. It won't hurt my feelings if Ben decides to play it on Eb, either--perhaps in his case, he can make it sound better that way. While I disagree with his assessment of Strauss's orchestrational judgment, I can't fault him for doing what he's got to do to give the best performance he can.
Like I indicated, the only reason I posted anything in this thread is that it occurred to me that if someone wants to play the piece on the C clarinet and they are having difficulty with those altissimo notes, then one possible solution is to find a good alternate fingering that speaks well at pp. I gave some examples I use at soft dynamics that seemed like they had potential. I don't know if that's a practical solution here or not, but I say it's worth figuring out if it is a practical solution or not--I mean, that's what I'd do, because I know you can solve a lot of problems that way. If not, I'd look for a plan B. I mean, for all I know, Ben may have tried those fingerings already and they didn't help any. If he hadn't, though, and they (or some other alternate fingerings) work for him (or for someone else reading this thread), then I'll feel like I contributed something.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-12-06 02:38
I found some of these statements very interesting. I think it is probably correct that Strauss had a certain tonal concept for writing a C clarinet part instead of Bb or Eb and if your a purest then you're correct, it should be played on a C clarinet. Now think about this. If one player plays it on a C clarinet but has a dark sound and one player plays it on a Bb clarinet but has a bright sound can you tell whose playing the correct clarinet if you didn't know who was playing what. The same could be said about the Eb clarinet. Does a player with a bright Eb sound sound more like what Strauss wanted then a player with a dark C sound? I think it only truly makes a difference if you know the players sound in the first place.
When we do the Alpine Symphony I always play the C part on the Bb clarinet. Not because I want to but because I don't own a C clarinet and the BSO doesn't own one either. The C part is on the bass clarinet part, actually it's the other way around since there's more C clarinet than bass. The only person that ever seems to notice the difference is me because it's so high and it's a lip killer playing up there with the flutes and piccolo. It's all a matter of who is listening and who could tell and I'm willing to bet that unless you can compare the same player playing a part on C or Bb clarinet that no one could tell the difference. Eb clarinet could be different though since it has so many different characteristics but I suspect in a wind ensemble it won't make a whole lot of difference to the listener, only the purest. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
Listen to a little Mozart, live performance.
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