 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BassClarinet21
Date: 2006-11-26 20:03
I was wondering if Silver plated keys made any "non-shiny" difference. I also looked at Asioso clarinets and saw Platnium plating, what about these?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-11-26 20:28
>> it helps the tone look better
> How can tone "look" better? Do you mean sound?
It's how the sound waves hit our eyes. Like tone colour, somehow, but the other way round.
--
Ben
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Author: BassClarinet21
Date: 2006-11-26 20:40
It's how the sound waves hit our eyes. Like tone colour, somehow, but the other way round.
If you can, will you please wxplain more?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-11-26 21:01
I try to reword it:
When wee see it being played, a thusly equipped clarinet sounds better, brighter etc than a plain old boring nickel plated instrument. When we don't look, we just think it might be - gasp! - the player who masters the instrument so beautifully.
In a nutshell: I don't believe that the key plating (or any other eye-candy on the horn such as engraved and gilded bells or a smiley on the barrel etc) is influencing the tone.
I do believe that the player feels a difference, and I don't care if it's a real or an imaginary difference, important is feeling at ease.
Nearly every make of shoes will bring you from Grand Central Station to the Flatiron building. Yet - some just feel more comfy than others.
--
Ben
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-11-26 21:54
Whoa - this is getting way out of line!
It's "Terminal" - "Grand Central Terminal" - not and never "Station"
Please!
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-11-26 22:14
Larryb, what's wrong with walking from Chicago to New York? ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
(But you're right, of course.)
--
Ben
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Author: DressedToKill
Date: 2006-11-26 22:22
Technically, it depends on which transit you're taking. It is Grand Central TERMINAL if you are on Metro North, as it is the TERMINUS of the line; however, if you are on the SUBWAY, it is Grand Central STATION, since nothing (save the Times Square shuttle) actually terminates there. It's simply another stop on the way.
Semantics is fun for everyone! :-)
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-11-26 23:15
Actually, to be completely accurate, New York City Transit identifies the stop on the IRT Line at Lexington Avenue and 42nd Street as simply "Grand Central," thereby avoiding the issue of "station" vs. "terminal" altogether.
If you take the train from Chicago to New York, you'll end up at Penn Station.
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Author: DressedToKill
Date: 2006-11-27 00:11
Well then there we go! Grand Central it is...
(All too familiar with it, as I live on the 6 and work in Midtown!)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-11-27 00:11
BassClarinet21, summarising all those posts, the question is the same as asking, "Does wearing a red shirt help the tone?", or "Does a red car really go faster?". (Or dare I add, "If I pray about playing well, will I play better?")
We are human beings, so we live in the fickle world of wild imaginings, which some people call reality, and others see as complete nonsense. :-)
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Author: Detru Cofidin
Date: 2006-11-27 01:07
well i don't have silver keys and my tone is better than it's ever been. so in all honesty I'd work for a worn nickel plating for the best tone...
Nicholas Arend
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2006-11-27 01:09
BassClarinet21, what the people before us are trying to say is that people buy into names and descriptions more. An R13 with nickel keys will play just as good as the same R13 when replated silver. It has nothing at all to do with sound. Don't think in too deeply to what the people before me said.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-11-27 04:59
"I was wondering if Silver plated keys made any "non-shiny" difference."
If you compare it with nicke, then yes (I've never played unplated keys). Silver is less slipery than nickel and will feel different to your fingers. Some players prefer nickel, and some (like me) prefer silver. To be honest, although when I am actually feeling the platings (rubbing my finger on the keys) the difference is obvious, I am not sure I would even bother to notice it if I was just given a random clarinet to play. As far as the sound it makes no difference at all.
"Does wearing a red shirt help the tone?"
What if you play a concert to a pack of bulls? I bet it would make some unique sounds  (by the way, as far as I know it is the movement of the sheets and not the red colour that make the bull run at it)
"We are human beings"
Speak for yourself! ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-11-27 08:35
my hands are very dry and i find nickel plating too slippery, for that reason i sold a lovely R13 A clarinet that had been "done over" by Moennig- my fingers slipped all the time when i played it. I find myself nowadays wondering if this was not clever of me..... (to lose this fabulous clarinet)
but for this reason and none other i prefer silver plating
donald
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-11-27 09:04
Reversible solution for slippery keys - nail varnish. (clear or your choice of colour). Adds a bit of extra grip, needs to be re-applied every so often, though. Also great for re-sealing quickly re-tarnishing keys on old clunkers, where replating is out of question.
Apply to keys, not fingers, of course.
--
Ben
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-11-28 00:55
BC21: You probably learned more about stations, terminals, and Chicago to New York trains on this thread than you did about silver clarinet keys, but we still don't know if silver improves the tone of that train's whistle! Eu
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2006-11-28 16:13
The plating on a clarinet keywork should affect the sound for a player more than the listener.....however, I am not sure what the posting here is about. Keywork on a wind instrument should certainly be considered a constituent in sound production....as to the amount this transcends into perceived tonal difference between the player and audience is something I doubt can be measured...at least in a scientific manner. There are alot of previous posts on this matter so go back and read under a search on 'plating'
The best way to "42cd street" is though a Vulcan mind meld...however not during a sinus infection.
David Dow
Post Edited (2006-11-28 16:20)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2006-11-28 16:13
I also noticed the above posting talks about slipperiness and feel...but the question is whether it affects tone or not....???
Does the above poster want a straight answer or are you more interested in feel over tone....?
There is a great SF book by Clifford Simak called "Way Station"!!! whooaaa
it is getting out of hand here...
David Dow
Post Edited (2006-11-28 16:21)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2006-11-28 16:23
I think Grand Central Station predates the war years...I mean WWW 2
David Dow
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-11-28 17:40
i didn't and don't consider that i have much to add to this debate- but the point i intended to make was that nothing has convinced me that there is any inherent tonal advantage in silver keys. I do however only play silver keyed clarinets for reasons that are "non tonal".
i seem to remember a really involved thread that went on for ages about this topic (not the one that was resurected at the same time as this one, i'm sure that there's another one). That had very lively debate (with various scientific opinions) about "silver vrs nickel"
donald
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-11-28 18:05
First of all, the idea that the key plating material has any effect on the sound of a clarinet is so ludicrous that I won't waste any more time on it. Personally I don't believe the clarinet BODY material has any discernible effect (from the listener's standpoint, not the player's necessarily) on the sound, but granted this is a highly controversial subject. As a point of information I will offer this: I've taken my silver-plated all-metal Penzel-Mueller clarinet to a couple of orchestra and band rehearsals and none of the players noticed any particular sonic difference compared to a wood clarinet; and furthermore I had the opportunity a few years ago to play some of Jim Lande's superb metal clarinets (including Silver Kings, double-walled Haynes, etc.) and I am absolutely convinced they sounded indistinguishable from top-of-the-line wood clarinets.
In summary, the key plating affects the appearance of the instrument, the feel under the player's fingers, and the durability of the finish with respect to the finger acidity level and maintenance habits of the player.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-11-28 19:44
Yep, I remember that thread. It was about one manufacturer's ad-man hype about some mysterious alloy used for their keys. Supposedly it was the cat's meow that would make everyone who played their horn suddenly pour out beautiful music . . . or something like that. It seems they had discovered the secret substance to end the silver vs-nickel debate! Eu
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2006-11-29 00:44
Dave:
Such heresy! How could a few microns of surface material outside the body of the instrument *not* affect the composition of waves many orders of magnitude larger? And the wall material doesn't affect the standaing waves generated inside the column? Why, next you'll probably say that the wall thickness doesn't matter either. Or that the material of the ligature doesn't matter. I'll bet you'd even say that the bell can't affect more than a handful of notes too. Where will it stop??
Careful, the Grand Inquisitor is listening and he *can* hear the difference.
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Author: spartanclarinet
Date: 2006-11-29 01:14
Regarding plating for clarinets, it does make a small but distinct difference in tonal color. Traditionalists will tell you to get your r13 with nickel keys because produces the most 'ring' in the sound. Honestly, while this has proven to be true in my experience, the difference can only be noticed when two like instruments (one nickel, one silver) are compared side by side in quick succession.
What I find makes more of a dramatic difference is how the two metals feel when you are playing. Nickel is more slippery, and when your hands perspire, it may be more likely that you can slip off a key by accident. Silver on the other hand, offers a little more grip and friction to your fingers. Feel each side by side and you will notice this for yourself. To me, this difference can make a bigger deal in performance than the slight tonal character difference (although, I do prefer the sound of nickel).
Justin O'Dell
http://web.mac.com/clarinetquintet/iWeb/MSUClarinetStudio/MSU.html
http://www.music.msu.edu/people/detail.php?id=83
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-11-29 02:08
Dr. O'Dell,
When playing two clarinets side-by-side as you describe, don't you suspect that tonal effects from the manufacturing differences in the acoustic construction (bore size and shape, tonehole placements) and assembly differences such as key heights, etc. might be larger by an order of magnitude than any effects of the key plating material? I can't believe you are serious. Please tell me you're being facetious. Please.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-11-29 02:43
Doc, maybe there is a solution . . . if nickel has a better sound but is more slippery than silver, would it not be a good idea to use nickel keys but give them a better gripping surface -- possibly something similar to the "turtle shell" grooving like that which is often used on bassoon whisper keys? Eu
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Author: spartanclarinet
Date: 2006-11-29 04:32
"When playing two clarinets side-by-side as you describe, don't you suspect that tonal effects from the manufacturing differences in the acoustic construction (bore size and shape, tonehole placements) and assembly differences such as key heights, etc. might be larger by an order of magnitude than any effects of the key plating material? I can't believe you are serious. Please tell me you're being facetious. Please."
Of course I am serious. An experienced player can tell the difference in clarinets. If you noticed, I said nothing of different models of clarinets, bores size differences, tonehole placements, assembly differences, key heights, ect. In fact, I said the difference can be noticed when two LIKE instruments are compared side by side. This was intended to preclude the posibility of comparing instruments outside the R13 discussed in my example. If one has ever had the experience of choosing Buffets out of dozens, discernable characterisistics emerge between silver and nickel keys, variation in clarinets of the same model notwithstanding.
Certainly key plating is one of the last points when it comes to the playing characteristics of a clarinet. Perhaps your ears do not enable you to percieve the differences between clarinets on this level.
Justin O'Dell
http://web.mac.com/clarinetquintet/iWeb/MSUClarinetStudio/MSU.html
http://www.music.msu.edu/people/detail.php?id=83
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Author: spartanclarinet
Date: 2006-11-29 04:58
"Doc, maybe there is a solution . . . if nickel has a better sound but is more slippery than silver, would it not be a good idea to use nickel keys but give them a better gripping surface -- possibly something similar to the "turtle shell" grooving like that which is often used on bassoon whisper keys? Eu"
Actually, your idea must be a good one, because I know of at least one instance where it has been employed. A freind of mine has set of Eaton small bores that have the "turtle shell" groving on the left hand C key. It feels pretty stable to use.
Justin O'Dell
http://web.mac.com/clarinetquintet/iWeb/MSUClarinetStudio/MSU.html
http://www.music.msu.edu/people/detail.php?id=83
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-11-29 11:52
I give up. I'll just add to the list of things one should not discuss with friends:
Politics
Religion
Clarinet key plating material
Maybe Vytas was right -- maybe I do have marshmallows in my ears, or however he put it...............................
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-11-29 12:25
David,
I'd say that depends on who your friends are... ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Apart from that, tigertrainer's prerequisites can't be satisfied anyway - there won't be two like (as in equal) instruments, ever. There are manufacturing tolerances everywhere, there are measuring tolerances, there are naturally-grown ingredients (wood, wool, skin), and finally there's the Buffet video showing a craftsperson hand-reaming/finishing a bore (not that there'd be anything wrong with it). How on earth would you get two near-identical instruments in the first place, in order to determine the influence of the plating material?
If I didn't have potatoes in my ears, I might be able to detect what you had for dinner the evening before, just by the ring of your instrument.
This is getting esoteric, really.
--
Ben
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Author: spartanclarinet
Date: 2006-11-29 13:49
Wow, who knew that key plating could be a topic that would trigger such an emotional response, lol!? Well anyway, when people have diverging opinions, they should remain cordial, I think.
That being said, it is somewhat an interesting topic. I recently worked with a clarinet maker to satisfy for myself the question about key plating and differences in sound. This maker offers several different plating options, including gold. He offered them because he was under the opinion that it makes a difference.
One of the most potent pieces of evidence for this was the metal ring around the barrel expiriment. We took a barrel with silver plated rings and listened to that. Then we took the same barrel, removed the rings, and put on some brass ones with a silver/gold blend. The same barrel, but with different rings, produced a different color in the sound. Was it earth shattering? No, but was interesting to hear.
I don't think anyone loses sleep over the choice of their key plating. It's not that important to most, but it is a consideration when purchasing an instrument.
Justin O'Dell
http://web.mac.com/clarinetquintet/iWeb/MSUClarinetStudio/MSU.html
http://www.music.msu.edu/people/detail.php?id=83
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-11-29 14:17
Justin/tiger:
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that if you play two R13s, one with nickel keys and one with silver, you will hear the difference in the sound you make.
No doubt you are right, I would be stupid to claim otherwise.
But I think that is the wrong experiment. Here is the experiment you need:
Select a group of highly skilled clarinet players - 10, 20, 30 people, the more the better. Give each of them an R13. Randomly allocate nickel instruments to half of them, silver instruments to the other half. Let them practice for a couple of weeks on these instruments.
Then listen to each of them, behind a screen. Identify which are playing nickel and which are playing silver.
What do you think? Could you get them all correct? 90% correct? 60% correct?
Because this is the best chance we have assessing whether there is a REAL difference. As an experiment, it is still flawed in at least two ways, but it is a great deal more meaningful than your subjective opinion that you know the difference.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: spartanclarinet
Date: 2006-11-29 15:35
"If I understand you correctly, you are saying that if you play two R13s, one with nickel keys and one with silver, you will hear the difference in the sound you make.
No doubt you are right, I would be stupid to claim otherwise.
But I think that is the wrong experiment. Here is the experiment you need:
Select a group of highly skilled clarinet players - 10, 20, 30 people, the more the better. Give each of them an R13. Randomly allocate nickel instruments to half of them, silver instruments to the other half. Let them practice for a couple of weeks on these instruments.
Then listen to each of them, behind a screen. Identify which are playing nickel and which are playing silver.
What do you think? Could you get them all correct? 90% correct? 60% correct?
Because this is the best chance we have assessing whether there is a REAL difference. As an experiment, it is still flawed in at least two ways, but it is a great deal more meaningful than your subjective opinion that you know the difference."
That might be an interesting experiment indeed. The problem is that you are really listening to different clarinetists. I would be interested in an experiment like this:
A clarinetist who thinks he can hear a difference in nickel and silver chooses ten of each that exibit the so-called 'ring/ping' audible difference. Another clarinetist plays them in random order blindly for that clarinetist, who tries to determine which is which. I wonder what the rate of accuracy would be in this instance. It could be great, or poor. This experiment would also determine if the real difference is how the clarinet resonates to the player and/or the listener.
I am saying that I believe if you go to a clarinet shop, and try a few dozen r13 clarinets, you can begin to notice characterisitics between the two platings. Of course the biggest difference will be the instruments themselves because of variation in maufacture. All I contend is that a small but distinct color change emerges between the two that transcends other variances. Some have argued that if one perceives a difference in clarinets, it would be impossible to attribute it to plating because no two clarinets can be identical. Yes, no clarinets can be identical. The flaw with this idea is thus: How is it possible to attribute different characteristics to something you think may exist, when there is a difference that you know exists? In other words, if one says that the difference in sound is because there may be a different grain in the wood, something which cannot be measured, and not due to a completely different key metal, how can it be supported?
For a long time, I was resistant to the idea that a key plating could possibly change anything. After all, how could keys, metal objects on the outside of a clarinet, affect anything going happening on the inside? After having more and more experience choosing clarinets, I have come to think otherwise. In fact, I will go to Jacksonville, FL to Buffet to get some clarinets for students. I will look forward to having an open mind to see what happens there.
Justin O'Dell
http://web.mac.com/clarinetquintet/iWeb/MSUClarinetStudio/MSU.html
http://www.music.msu.edu/people/detail.php?id=83
Post Edited (2006-11-29 15:35)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-11-29 21:54
Have you noticed any correlation between the tone and the colour of the shirt you are wearing?
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-11-29 22:02
Justin - the problem with your version of the experiment is that the person playing the instruments will know (by feel) which metal each one is, and this may influence how he plays. The reason for having many players is to try to average out this effect. But my experiment is imperfect too, I agree.
I'm sure you are aware that Yamaha also make claims for the effects of different key platings.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-11-29 22:28
So will a clarinet with black nickel plated keys sound darker than one with bright nickel plated keys? And will one that is silver plated but tarnished black sound any different to one with polished silver keys? Will urban myths never cease?
Yet again I'll say the keywork plating, no matter what precious or non-precious metal is plated on them will not have any noticeable effect on the tone - though I wouldn't advise caesium plating - you'll have no fingers left!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-11-30 07:16)
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Author: spartanclarinet
Date: 2006-11-29 22:44
"...the problem with your version of the experiment is that the person playing the instruments will know (by feel) which metal each one is, and this may influence how he plays. The reason for having many players is to try to average out this effect. But my experiment is imperfect too, I agree.
I'm sure you are aware that Yamaha also make claims for the effects of different key platings."
David - How would it influence the way he plays? Does that suggest that if a clarinetist thinks he prefers silver, will play better because he has a hidden agenda? Or do you mean that because nickel is more slippery, that he might be prone to make more mistakes in the musical example chosen for the experiment?
Justin O'Dell
http://web.mac.com/clarinetquintet/iWeb/MSUClarinetStudio/MSU.html
http://www.music.msu.edu/people/detail.php?id=83
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-11-30 08:18
"How would it influence the way he plays? Does that suggest that if a clarinetist thinks he prefers silver, will play better ......"
Very much so, even if it is totally subconscious. There is no limit to how much the human mind can deceive itself, often totally unwittingly.
Think the need for placebos for realistic drug testing.
Think about how, even when we KNOW we are being deceived by an optical illusion, we are STILL deceiv ed by it.
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-11-30 17:46
btw my "aaarrrrrrggghhh" was not directed at anyone in particular, but at the topic in general (it's already been done to death more than once, with no consensus reached)
keep playing the good tunes
donald
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Author: KellyA
Date: 2006-11-30 17:54
There is a legitimate medical reason why silver plate is better than nickle. For years I practiced with nickle keys on all my instruments. After many years I developed a nickle allergy. Even the purest of silver still has some nickle in it, but considerably less than pure nickle keys. My tosca has thick silver plating on the keys and they do not bother me at all. So, for me, I'll stick with the silver.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-11-30 21:46
Nothing that is connected to the body of the clarinet is acoustically transparent and does make the difference to the tone. The problem is that not everyone can hear/distinguish the difference. There are no identical people so there's no such thing as identical hearing ability. For some reason people who can not hear the difference rejects the possibility of others to hear as a mind tricks, imagination, etc.
A clarinet player asked the doctor for help: "Doctor my wife has a hearing problem but she won't see a doctor. What should I do"? Doctor gave instructions. When a clarinet player got home he found his wife in the kitchen. "Honey... what are you making"? Wife didn't respond. A clarinet player got closer and asked the same question again. Wife was silent. A clarinet player got very close and asked again. This time his wife turned her head. "I'm telling you for a third time... spaghetti and meatballs...
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-11-30 22:41
Maybe I have spaghetti and meatballs in my ears instead of potatoes. I'm still waiting for someone to explain using some form of physics or physical science, how key plating material could possibly affect the tone of the clarinet. Regardless of anyone's opinion as to WHETHER the effect can be detected, HOW can it happen?
Thanks.
That's all for now.
Back to my spaghetti dinner.............
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-11-30 23:40
David Spiegelthal wrote:
> Regardless of
> anyone's opinion as to WHETHER the effect can be detected, HOW
> can it happen?
I could give reasons why something might happen, but I'd much rather determine first whether or not something does happen. Vytas tells us many times that something happens, but I've yet to see proof that it does happen. Vytas, get 10 players and 20 horns of the same kind, set up by someone other than you. Let the 10 players play each horn in a random order and you mark down which horn has what plating (I may have gone overboard here - a statistician would compute the number of trials and people need to disambiguate the result).
If there's a statistical different - if you really hear a difference - then the investigation might be worthwhile for someone interested.
Otherwise I have to take your word for it, and I'm very sceptical.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-12-01 02:23
> *** Vytas, get 10 players and 20 horns of the same kind, set up by someone other than you. Let the 10 players play each horn in a random order and you mark down which horn has what plating (I may have gone overboard here - a statistician would compute the number of trials and people need to disambiguate the result). *** <
Mark,
There aren't identical sounding clarinets/setups in the world because you won't find two identical pieces of wood that clarinets are made from. Theoretically you can make two identical clarinets using a CNC machine only and no hand finishing but don't expect them to sound the same because of the wood. So even if you had 20 clarinets of the same kind you won't know what makes a particular clarinet sound different. The only way to test if the plating of the keys makes the difference would be a singe clarinet and computer. After recording the data the keys would require to replace with another set of keys that have a different plaiting and then record and compare the data.
Mark with my ears I can hear not only difference in a different material but also I can hear the difference in the same material with a different cut or softness (grenadilla and hard rubber). Sorry, but I can tell that Mr. Chadash makes clarinet blanks that are a bit too soft and that's why they do have SOMEWHAT limited tonal possibilities even after the great master C. Hill applies his magic to them. A little of tweaking with the formulation would make these blanks sound great and REALLY equal to the old Chedeville blanks.
Do you think I need a scientific proof for myself? You must be kidding. You're the one who needs it but not the person who can actually hear. I believe that majority of pro players that are involved with clarinet long enough can hear this difference. I do not think that I'm special in any way. Have you ever noticed that most of the people that claim the opposite usually are armatures with very limited clarinet experience? When the clarinet becomes the only thing you do in your life you start hearing things that are very different from all the other people.
I do not claim that I can tell the difference related to the plaiting. I never thought about that in those terms until today but the fact that everything that is connected to the body of a clarinet resonates together with it makes me think that this is exactly the case. I don't know if you think the same way but when you attach, place or connect something to the clarinet body it becomes "THE MATERIAL" and different materials sound different.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-12-01 02:57
Vytas wrote:
> There aren't identical sounding clarinets/setups in the world
> because you won't find two identical pieces of wood that
> clarinets are made from.
Vytas,
You missed the point. I don't want or need identical clarinets if in fact you can tell by listening whether or not a clarinet has plated keys or not. You've stated (I think unambiguously) that you can tell the difference. So it shouldn't matter at all what the clarinet is made of or what brand it is or whether or not it's in tune. All you'd have to do is listen and tell the person recording the results whether or not the keys are plated.
I'm not claiming that you can't hear the difference plating makes. But since you made the claim, it is incumbent on YOU to prove the claim, not anyone else. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-12-01 03:23
> *** "I don't want or need identical clarinets if in fact you can tell by listening whether or not a clarinet has plated keys or not. You've stated (I think unambiguously) that you can tell the difference". *** <
Mark,
I never made any claims related to the plating. Have you actually red my ENTIRE post? Or it was just ONE sentence you're replying to?
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-12-01 03:30
I'm sorry, I must have read more into your post than you meant. Since we were talking about plating, and you said everything connected to the clarinet altered its tone, and that some people could hear incredibly subtle difference, I jumped to the conclusion that you could hear a difference.
Are you saying you can't hear any differences with the different platings?
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-12-01 04:02
> *** "Are you saying you can't hear any differences with the different platings"? *** <
That is correct Mark. I can't.
Here is exactly what I said concerning the plating:
"I do not claim that I can tell the difference related to the plaiting. I never thought about that in those terms until today but the fact that everything that is connected to the body of a clarinet resonates together with it makes me think that this is exactly the case. I don't know if you think the same way but when you attach, place or connect something to the clarinet body it becomes "THE MATERIAL" and different materials sound different".
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-12-01 04:13
Vytas wrote:
Missed the bottom of the post originally. Sorry.
So in this case your thinking is the same as mine ... the plating doesn't make any discernable difference in the sound.
It surely makes a difference in the feel of the keys, that I know.
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2006-12-01 09:51
The audibility of ephemeral tones has been addressed throughout the ages.
"I came, I heard, I concluded" -- Julius Clarinetus
"I hear, therefore it is" -- Rene DesClarinet
"I think I can, I think I can, I know I can hear it" – The Little Clarinetist that Could
"I heard it through the grapes in my ears" – Marvin Clarinetist
"The ear of living dangerously" – Suklarineto
"You still say you don’t hear it?" – Clarinetist de Torquemada
"I yam what I yam" – Popeye the potato-eared clarinetist
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-12-01 10:09
ok
the definitive experiment
we make a cylindrical tube with ten holes in it
we make two sets of pads/keys to close those holes
one set= silver plated
one set= nickel plated
we find a tone generator of some description (a mouthpiece with "artificial embochure" as shown in a reccent Clarinet mag would do ok- it doesn't matter if it sounds "as good as a great player" rather that it's the same each time)
put the silver keys on and record/analyse the sound
put on the nickel keys and do likewise
any difference should be quantifiable, surely?
the silver vrs nickel question is solved
who has the resources to do this? (time/money) not me!
keep playing the good tunes
donald
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-01 11:46
donald,
just get a clarinet that is available with both nickel and silver keys. Separately order the missing key set.
--
Ben
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-12-01 13:37
. . . and, of course, we must hope that, other than having different plating, both sets of keys are exactly alike (maybe down to the molecular level) so that sans plating, they would resonate exactly alike. As Vytas noted earlier, everything connected to the clarinet becomes part of the resonating body, so we would need to insure that there is nothing in either setup, save the plating alone, that can have any effect on the sounds produced that would cause them to sound differently. Eu
Post Edited (2006-12-01 14:40)
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Author: frank
Date: 2006-12-01 20:21
Key plating makes no difference in sound. They do feel different on the hands though. To belive the metal keys (plating materials) vibrate enough to hear a discernable difference in tone on a clarinet is dead wrong. Arthur Benade proved this, as can any respectable scientist. Read about physics, leave the witch doctor stuff in fantasy land where it belongs.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-12-01 20:38
It's really a matter of simple logic, not physics:
Clarinet without any keys sounds completely different from a clarinet with keys (try it yourself, easy to remove all the keywork). We all agree on that.
Therefore, a clarinet with silver plated keys must sound different from a clarinet with no keywork at all.
Likewise, a clarinet with nickel keys must sound different from a clarinet with no keywork at all.
Ipso facto, clarinets with nickel or silver plated keys must sound different from clarinet with no keys at all.
Finally, then, to answer the original question, silver plated keywork "does help the tone."
Please try not to get too emotional in responding.
Thank you.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-01 21:05
> Please try not to get too emotional in responding.
...must...control...embouchure...
--
Ben
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Author: Lobo
Date: 2006-12-01 21:22
I drive a sports car. If I wax the car, it seems to me that the engine runs smoother. In reality, it doesn't.
If you hand me an instrument with shiny silver keys and an identical one with duller gray nickel keys, I will feel that the one with silver keys is better and I will likely play it better. Someone listening to me will likely hear differences due both to a slight change in my approach to playing the instrument and to his perception of the instruments after seeing the keys. (Guess why pharmaceutical tests use double-blind testing--where neither researcher nor patient knows who is getting the placebo.)
Donald's experiment makes a great deal of sense.
We could also do an experiment like that done with pharmaceuticals by using, as proposed earlier, multiple instruments. I would modify what was suggested by having each player provide his own mouthpiece. One at a time, each of several identical (except for key plating) clarinets would be randomly placed in a test rig by a technician and the mouthpiece attached. The test rig would be set to clamp certain keys down or toneholes closed. The blindfolded player would be led into the room, sat down at the instrument and have one of his fingers placed on his mouthpiece (to help him locate it.) Having been told earlier what note was being tested in this session (open G, for example), the player would place his mouth on the mouthpiece and blow without be allowed to otherwise touch the instrument. This would be repeated with multiple instruments with the same note.
The same procedure could be used with other notes. Multiple players would not be required, but one could repeat all this with other players as well.
The results would be analyzed electronically.
And no one could tell what the plating was by feel.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Not having done this experiment, but looking at things using my decent understanding of physics, I find it intuitive that any resonance in the keys or body of a clarinet is going to be well-dampened by the pads of my fingers and the pads of the keys. And no vibration in the instrument is going to be comparable to the vibration of the true resonator--the reed. (When it is comparable, you get the sound of a loose key buzzing in a sympathetic vibration.) Yes, the reed is the resonator and the rest of the instrument is nothing more than a means to control the vibration of the reed by changing the length and shape of the air column (or, in the case of the mouthpiece and ligature, how and how much the reed is allowed to flex).
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-12-01 21:38
> *** Arthur Benade proved this, as can any respectable scientist. Read about physics, leave the witch doctor stuff in fantasy land where it belongs. *** <
Arthur Benade proved nothing. He barely scratched the surface as far as clarinet acoustics is concern. Clarinet walls, keys etc. are not acoustically transparent..... Oh, well maybe they are... if you have potatoes in your ears.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: frank
Date: 2006-12-01 21:41
larryb,
How does one play a clarinet without keywork? Of course it will sound different without it! lol All the venting will be screwed with. Furthermore, how does that lead you to your conclusion that key plating affects the tone? I am curious. Unless your post was meant to be tongue in cheek, what you stated is like saying: "The engine was not running well in the car, therefore a different body color will make it run better". Sounds like one of those trick SAT questions in reading comprehension. lol
I am not attacking you, but there is nothing logical about your post. Just because you decide it is "simple logic", that does not make it true and even remotely factual. Physics can LITERALLY explain MOST phsyical phenomenon and does in this case. It's all a point of veiw I guess. People thought the earth was flat once too. Choose your poision...facts or fiction.
Vytass,
I guess we cannot debate then. You've decided to disregard an eminent physicists life's work in one fell swoop. What is your basis and qualifications to explain this? Where are the volumes of formulae and experiments that prove your hypothesis? I don't want to hear "repair tech" or "mouthpiece maker" or "pro player" as being valid qualifications. Prove through years of documented experiments and data only please. See above about earth being flat. lol Unbelievable. BTW, we are ONLY talking about key plating making a difference in sound here, not clarinet design. Make sure that is clear. Also, Why is it that some people fight scientific knowledge that has been around for many years? Musicians are a supersticious bunch!
Post Edited (2006-12-01 21:55)
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Author: Lee
Date: 2006-12-01 22:52
The plating does not affect the tone but all that plating increases the mass of the keys and slowes the response of the clarinet. The proper thing is to use unplated german silver keys:^)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-01 22:55
Okay...just for the sake of argument: Suppose for a minute that the keywork plating does have an influence on the sound. Furthermore, suppose it is an audible and not just measurable difference. I predict we're none the wiser with that knowledge, as the next question is already lurking behind the corner: which one is better?
The only thing the majority in here appears to agree with is that an in-tune instrument is preferrable. But some are on the quest of an all smooth velvety tone, some others like it rough and raw, and the undecided fraction will say "it depends on the piece".
And now? Will I be able to use that freshly acquired knowledge about the key plating? Will I be stuck between a vent and a hard pad? Tune in next week when ...
--
Ben
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2006-12-01 23:07
If I could wiggle my nose and make any clarinet I could dream of, it would have titanium keys(not plated) with itsy bitsy roller bearings. Not for tone but for ease, and fluidity of movement.
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Author: ginny
Date: 2006-12-02 01:01
Hmm,
How much air actually contacts the silver? wouldn't this supposed effect be overwhelmed by the fingers of the player and their texture or density if indeed the sound is effected by things in the area. I really doubt it matters as much as the air temperature and humidity, if at all.
Perhaps someone with an Oscope can just hold a few items of various materials close to an open G and see if fingers verses diamond necklaces or legos or carrots change the sound at a fraction of an inch say near a clarinet rings.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-12-02 04:04
Vytas wrote:
"Nothing that is connected to the body of the clarinet is acoustically transparent and does make the difference to the tone. The problem is that not everyone can hear/distinguish the difference. There are no identical people so there's no such thing as identical hearing ability. For some reason people who can not hear the difference rejects the possibility of others to hear as a mind tricks, imagination, etc."
A big research that was done here in the acoustic department (one of the main three in the world afaik) proved that people's ability to hear pitch differences is almost the same for anyone, regardless of them being a musician or not. The test was done by playing two notes one after the other every time and changing the pitcyh difference every time (plus they checked in all registers and all notes). The results are irelevent right now, but what's important is they were almost exactly the same for everyone.
I'm wondering how do you know that the ability to hear tone colour (or whatever you want to call it) is so different for all people?
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2006-12-02 10:14
This is another case of personal opinion vs. objectively verifiable facts. Those who "know" what they hear will never be convinced by any tests. The placebo effect is very strong, as every test of proposed medications shows.
There is a long line of such "clearly audible" effects. Tube vs. transistor amplifiers, exotic speaker wires and cable connects, sampling rates for CD, encoding rates for MP3, etc. In every case, when a controlled double blind experiment was set up, there was no statically significant difference discernible between properly functioning units, even on the part of self-professed golden ears. Still the myths persist because folks who have already made up their minds will not be confused by the facts.
There have been some fun Penn and Teller style debunkings. Bob Carver showing a flat line on an oscilloscope fed the signal from his transistor amp combined with the inverted signal from a well-regarded tube amp and saying, "there's what you're hearing." Or, a well publicized test by a mainstream audio mag several years back involving encoding rates for MP3 players in which one self-proclaimed golden ear actually was able to hear a difference, except that his clearly "better" signal had half the encoding rate of the inferior one.
The key plating issue, although close, isn't quite up there with my favorite absurd audible illusion of all time. For a while, a camp insisted that marking the edges of CDs with a green marker made them sound better. Short of triggering the error-correction circuitry in the D/A converters, the 1's were still 1's and the 0's were still 0's, but the green-edged 1's and 0's somehow sounded better.
P.T. Barnum was right. Yamaha with their Hamilton plating, Monster cable and speaker connects, and others are astutely making $$$ selling sugar pills. Even Radio Shack is getting into the act. I recently noticed that their house brand of high-end cables for "high bandwidth" component video connection is identical to the regular A/V cables except for two differences: red-green-blue bands instead of red-white-yellow, and a price tag that was exactly double.
Meanwhile, I'm going to attach a helium balloon to my horn to lighten my sound.
.
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Author: jmcgann
Date: 2006-12-02 12:38
Quote:
Tube vs. transistor amplifiers,
If you play electric guitar and can't tell the difference between the response of a tube amplifier vs. a transistor amp, you really should stick to acoustic guitars
I believe there is a lot of Emperor's New Clothes Syndrome in the hi-fi audio world, too, but that's one area (musical instrument amplifiers) that is not bunk.
Since 90% of clarinet sound is in the airstream/mouth/tounge/embrouchre/reed/mouthpiece, if the keys feel better, it probably makes you sound better, because the feel on the hands is part of the "signal chain".
www.johnmcgann.com
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-12-02 16:43
Lee: If the clarinet plays better because it is more responsive with keys made of a lower mass material, such as german silver, then an even lower mass material, say titanium, might even be better . . . can you get a decent shine on that stuff? Eu
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Author: vin
Date: 2006-12-02 19:30
I once heard Harold Wright, and since then, several other top echelon players, say "I prefer the sound of nickel keys" (as opposed to silver). Are you all going to say that they had no idea what they were talking about and are completely mistaken?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-12-02 19:58
vin wrote:
> Are you all going to say that they had no
> idea what they were talking about and are completely mistaken?
People are mistaken as to cause and effect on a daily basis. Everyone, without exception, is prone to this. They may have been mistaken. But it doesn't really make any difference or matter in their perceived outcomes.
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Author: JTS
Date: 2006-12-03 07:50
I have asked two members of my immediate family, one an astrophysicist the other an engineer working on the Stanford Linear Accelerator, about the affect of plating on timbre, and both of them assured me that key plating would definitely make a difference in the sound. Everything on the instrument will affect the sound, your body fat index will affect the sound. Can your hear it? Maybe. Obviously every instrument is different, but I think the Yamaha CSG with its two plating options can provide a good opportunity for comparison. Anyone have any experience doing blind test with the CSG?
JTS
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-12-03 08:40
I don't know whether some players can hear the difference between nickel and silver. I'm inclined to doubt it, but have suggested an experiment to test the idea - an experiment that could be done at zero cost, moreover.
But what I continue to find faintly absurd is that almost nobody seems to consider what the audience can hear. Maybe Harold Wright could hear the difference. Maybe Justin/tiger can. Maybe Vytas can, or maybe he can hear some other subtle things but not the plating.
But really, does it matter? What does the audience hear? If I were playing professionally (no chance whatever of that!) I would care what 99% of my audience could hear. What the other clarinet player could hear, what the first oboe could hear, what the one professional clarinet player in the audience could hear - why would I care?
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: johnsonfromwisconsin
Date: 2006-12-03 16:34
I have asked two members of my immediate family, one an astrophysicist the other an engineer working on the Stanford Linear Accelerator, about the affect of plating on timbre, and both of them assured me that key plating would definitely make a difference in the sound.
The problem with this is that even extreme expertise in their respective fields of discipline do not qualify your family members as experts in the field of material effects on accoustics. Also, even experts within a field can often dissagree on facts beyond that which can be positively proven.
This why I also find Dr Justin O'Dell's claims not to have the weight that he supposes, even though he may be a fantastic and knowledgable player. The accoustical effects of materials he talks about should have a conclusive basis in science. Testing equipment can be far more acute than the human ear in picking up the nuances he has talked about with repect to key plating. Furthermore, the scope of such a test would have to be large with respect to sample size to "law of averages" out the other tonal wild cards that can come into play. You would also be best served to attempt to remove other subjective elements through double blind testing, and then you'd only be left with a statistical interval of confidence in the conclusion which size would depend on the number of test instruments and so forth.
That's a lot of trouble, and in the end, you'll still be left with a small chance the conclusion is a statistical outlier. It may never be definitively and scientifically solved whether keyplating, or body plating, or body material effects tone and to what degree. In the mean time, it's firmly contained in the realm of subjective belief and advertising, unless someone can link to an exaustive scientific study on the matter.
that is how I see it.
-JfW
Post Edited (2006-12-03 16:38)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-12-03 16:51
johnsonfromwisconsin wrote:
> I have asked two members of my immediate family, one an
> astrophysicist the other an engineer working on the Stanford
> Linear Accelerator, about the affect of plating on timbre, and
> both of them assured me that key plating would definitely make
> a difference in the sound.
>
> The problem with this is that even extreme expertise in their
> respective fields of discipline do not qualify your family
> members as experts in the field of material effects on
> accoustics. Also, even experts within a field can often
> dissagree on facts beyond that which can be positively proven.
Which of course is very true.
Everything affects the sound; it's the degree which is important. The acoustics of the hall, something you have no control over, can easily overwhelm anything you might do. Especially if the acoustics are bad.
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Author: johnsonfromwisconsin
Date: 2006-12-03 16:52
EuGeneSee said:
Lee: If the clarinet plays better because it is more responsive with keys made of a lower mass material, such as german silver, then an even lower mass material, say titanium, might even be better . . . can you get a decent shine on that stuff?
While not hardly conclusive, I've always been suspicious about how the rarity and expense of certain material somehow directly corresponds to how pleasent a sound will be to the human ear. Why is it that platimum is the best material to manufacture a flute out of? With gold, then silver, then silver plated brass, and nickle plated brass following up the list? how can percieved human economic value corrolate so directly to accoustics?
-JfW
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-03 17:52
johnsonfromwisconsin wrote:
> While not hardly conclusive, I've always been suspicious about
> how the rarity and expense of certain material somehow directly
> corresponds to how pleasent a sound will be to the human ear.
> Why is it that platimum is the best material to manufacture a
> flute out of? With gold, then silver, then silver plated brass,
> and nickle plated brass following up the list? how can
> percieved human economic value corrolate so directly to
> accoustics?
Nobody in their right mind will waste rare material with poor workmanship. So the price of gold, platin etc will justify higher manufacturing (in the proper sense of the word) costs while a student-class instrument is manufactured with minimum requirements and "good enough" quality in mind. You just don't put tyres that are good for 240 kph on an old 2CV.
The result is that the platin instrument probably sounds better (in the hand of a pro, that is) than an off-the-mill nickel plated instrument. Not necessarily because of the material used but because of the overall better quality.
--
Ben
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-12-03 21:26
What on earth has astrophysics and linear accelerator engineering got to do with acoustic effects?
But I would agree with them. Most definitely, the plating of the keys will have an effect on the sound. But the question is how much? Probably about as much as the effect of a moth sitting on the wall of the room the instrument is played in!
We need to try to keep in touch with what is scientifically sensible.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-12-04 04:26
Also something mentioned by some in this tread, that anything connected to the clarinet will affect the sound, well of course. But like Gordon said above, it is how much of an effect that is important.
Look at this example - In the same place (acoustics) my main clarinet sounds much better than an old Vito clarinet I have. If I play my main clarinet in my bedroom, and the Vito in the livingroom, the Vito sounds better. My main clarinet is wood and silver plated, and the Vito is plastic and (I think) nickel plated. This shows how something that is not connected to the clarient at all has a huge effect in comparison with ANY material that is connected to the clarinet, or the clarinet material itself.
The claim that something will have an effect because it is connected to the clarinet is just ridiculous. I can't imagine anyone with any understanding of acoustics claiming that!
"Probably about as much as the effect of a moth sitting on the wall of the room the instrument is played in!"
Actually, that depends on the size of the moth and the material of the moth. A regular small moth will most likely make a much smaller difference than the plating. If it is a huge mutant super moth than it might make a bigger difference, depending on specific overtones the material of the moth swallows and returns compared with those of the plating.
Post Edited (2006-12-04 07:09)
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Author: JTS
Date: 2006-12-04 06:39
Again does anyone have any experience with blind testing CSGs? I play recitals not CSGs, but when I was at the yamaha studio in manhattan testing instruments with a buddy of mine (I would say we have reasonably well trained ears, we both are currently playing in pretty decent professional orchestras here in the states, he plays assistant and e-flat, I play principal), and we could pick out which was silver and which was hamilton without looking very consistently. Bil Jackson and Joaquin Valdepenas both believe they can tell the difference. Obviously it will a very subtle difference if any. Is it worth it? Maybe not for amateurs, but for professionals I would say its probably worth keeping an open mind when it comes to such things. Like I said, I play recitals, and everything I have ever seen has been silver plated so it's never been a concern. BUT, I will say, I am very picky out my mouthpiece patch. Anyone think that doesn't make a difference?
JTS
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-12-04 10:55
The mouthpiece patch may make a HUGE difference to what sort of sound is conducted via your teeth and bones to your ears, but possibly make neglible difference to the audience, unless you have connected their skulls with yours.
Or do you perhaps consider that your skull itself is radiating significant vibrations to the audience's ears via the air?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-12-04 12:04
Gordon,
the auricles serve as additional bells.
(Now please no one come and ask whether gold or silver ear rings are preferrable)
--
Ben
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-12-04 13:54
JfW: Actually I was referring to the effect of the material (in this example, titanium) on the instrument without regard to economics. . . I suppose I could have asked the same question about aluminum, though I suspect it might not be as sturdy as titanium.
Actually, the effect of key mass on the playability of the clarinet is completely off the topic of acoustics of key material and hence would be better relegated to a separate thread. Eu
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-12-04 14:08
His skull would probably radiate much more sound than one small moth will absorb. Eu
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Author: JTS
Date: 2006-12-04 16:14
The mouthpiece patch makes a huge difference for the listener. I have asked many of my friends to listen to different mouthpiece patches, most of them non-clarinetists, and they can always tell the difference, and always have a preference. I find that the mouthpiece patch greatly affects the balance of upper partials in the sound, and in turn, it what ways you can modulate the intensity of the sound. This is of course of very important to actual music making. Since I began learning tuvan throat singing (which involves manipulating the overtones of a held pitch), I have become very skilled at hearing many of the overtones in my sound. Regardless of if I am playing double lip or single lip, I find that the mouthpiece patch will affect the presence of different harmonics in much the same way. Because of this fact, I would be more inclined to believe that the mouthpiece patch affects the sound more by way of the acoustical impedance of the mouthpiece rather than by changing the way my skull resonates, although I am sure it does affect that is well, being a solid medium with which the vibrations from my mouthpiece are transmitted directly to my teeth and ultimately my skull.
JTS
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Author: ginny
Date: 2006-12-04 16:58
I decided not to ask my brother, a physicist at Stanford Linear Accelerater (on Barbar) or my son, currently take optics/accoustics at UC. I didn't want to be laughed at, perhaps I'll bring it up casually over the holidays. Physicists do study accoustics more than the average citizen actually does (even little undergrads in physics) and even the majority of music pros and probably more than most techs. Then again my brother, when in high school physics thought he could tune a guitar by waiting for a string to vibrate in sympathy with the note being brought to pitch.
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-12-04 17:47
hmmmm i am imagining plastic keys with a pitted surface so that my fingers won't slide. They would be so light! When i removed the Eflat/Aflat key from my Festival A i found the difference in weight to be noticeable, so i imagine that the difference between metal and plasitc keys would be like playing clarinet on the moon
i already asked Brad if he could make a barrel using his superb rubber, maybe he could make keys?
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-12-04 19:24
btw the mouthpiece patch will affect how open the players mouth is, how much of the reed is in their mouth, and how firmly the clarinet is held against the top teeth- so i'm absolutely certain that the patch makes a difference.
interestingly, Mike Lomax has been using mouthpiece patches that are narrower and thicker than those i've previously used.... i didn't like this at first, but i've come over time to suspect that these encourage a more "round" embouchure with more even lip pressure around the mouthpiece.... (note i only said "encourage"). I've not taken the time to support this with research, it is merely the impression i have after some months of recitals/gigs etc.
donald
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The Clarinet Pages
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