 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ericzang
Date: 2003-05-23 02:16
I have an albert system clarinet. When I finger T123, it sounds a B, not Bb or C. Is this a B clarinet? I can make it sound at Bb if I pull out the bore almost to the edge of the connection.
Thanks for any help,
Eric
Post Edited (2003-05-23 02:18)
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Author: Corey
Date: 2003-05-23 02:29
Sounds like it is a very sharp Concert Bb. Normally when fingering T123(low C), you produce a Bb concert pitch. I know nothing on Albert system clarinets so you might possibly have a clarinet in "B".
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-05-23 04:38
Looks like you have a High Pitch instrument, Eric. Look for the words "High Pitch", or initials "H P" or "H.P." somewhere near the maker's mark. Don't be disappointed if you find no mark as most instruments of the 1800s weren't marked. Many instruments besides Albert system clarinets were pitched higher than A=440 until around 1920. They're not much good today unless you're an unaccompanied soloist or can find an instrumental group that plays period instruments. The "average" high pitched instrument is about a quarter tone sharp and intonation deteriorates the more you try to adjust to standard A=440 pitch. The old string down the bore trick will help bring the pitch down but you'll find the tone quality spoils drastically.
In spite of all this, if it's a really nice horn and you want to play it anyway, you might find a guitarist or other string players willing to tune up to you.
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Author: chuck
Date: 2003-05-23 05:32
I'm lost, or unfamiliar with the terminology, but what does T123 indicate? Thank you, Chuck
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Author: msroboto
Date: 2003-05-23 11:20
T123 - The fingering for C below the staff.
Thumb and fingers 1, 2, 3.
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Author: chuck
Date: 2003-05-23 15:47
msroboto: thank you. I was thinking of tuning an octave higher.
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Author: Tom A
Date: 2003-05-24 11:35
In 1994 as a recently graduated conductor for a small but enthusiastic school band program, I bought an old baritone horn at an estate auction for $200 Aust. It worked fine, but needed all slides pulled half-way out to be in tune. I was told by a brass-playing colleague that, in the early years of last century (twentieth, that is), instruments were generally pitched higher. This is similar to Ron's comment, but my colleague said nothing about it being part of an alternative pitch convention. It could therefore be just a high-pitched note on an already high-pitched instrument.
Cheers.
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Author: Tom A
Date: 2003-05-24 13:01
Take Two...
What I said makes sense if we're talking concert (sounding) pitch. When you say "it sounds a B", I assumed you meant B on the piano. Is this right?
If the C fingering on the Albert clarinet plays a CONCERT B, meaning it sounds like a B on your piano, that means it's playing a C# for clarinet and it's sharp as Ron and I were saying.
If the C fingering on the Albert clarinet plays what sounds like a B on your normal B flat clarinet, this is actually a concert A. In which case you have an Albert system clarinet in A, and congratulations for finding it!
Which of these is the case?
Cheers again.
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Author: ericzang
Date: 2003-05-24 23:08
Thanks for all your feedback. Yes, it plays a concert B with T123. It has no markings what so ever on it, no brand name or anything. I presume it is an older style, only 2 rings and 12 keys (no rollers). It is plastic (ebonite?). Pads are fine on it.
Jee, rather disappointing that it is in such an unpractical key.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2003-05-25 00:50
While it has been rumored that there were clarinets made in B rather than Bb none have come to light. So I doubt that it is a clarinet in B.
If it were a High Pitch instrument instead of the current standard, fingering a C would give a note about halfway between a Bb and B.
Perhaps it was built to a different standard altogether.
How many trill keys does it have on the right hand side of the upper joint? The Boehm system has four. Alberts have three. Muellers and older styles have two or less.
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Author: ericzang
Date: 2003-05-25 09:42
Yes, I just tested it again and in fact it sounds in between a concert B and Bb. It must be a "high pitch" model. It is closer to B than Bb.
It has only two keys on the right side of the upper joint. Maybe it's a Mueller rather than Albert? Anyone have a link to Mueller clarinet description? I couldn't find one right away with Google.
Here's the ebay link with a picture.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2529259772&category=10182&rd=1
I'm interested in Greek clarinet playing, so that's why I went for an Albert, this one only has two rings (an advantage for this style?) and was relatively inexpensive.
[ no selling here - Mark C ]
Thanks again for all your help!
Eric
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Author: Dee
Date: 2003-05-25 16:46
ericzang,
Keep in mind that the clarinet was an evolutionary thing. There can be some variation within a certain "style" of clarinet. Many of the "styles" persisted in production and use for decades after improvements were made.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-05-25 21:08
Dee wrote:
***While it has been rumored that there were clarinets made in B rather than Bb none have come to light. So I doubt that it is a clarinet in B.***
I own a Buffet clarinet (doughnut key era) that is marked H and there is no P. Horn is in very poor shape and has non-original 60mm barrel. Clarinet plays in the key of B. Intonation is very accurate with the only one note (open G) being 15 cents out of tune. If it had an original barrel I would say its B clarinet, but now, I don't know what to make out of it.
Vytas
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-10 10:13
Hi, there have been a number of identified B clarinets out there. I can't speak for others. I clearly have one with all the original parts tuned to 435. It seems people don't know what high pitch and French pitch are and get confused. High pitch was to 452, French pitch was 435.
Post Edited (2023-11-01 03:42)
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2023-10-10 14:26
I'm curious about how people distinguish between a (possibly slightly out-of-tune) low pitch B natural clarinet and a high pitch Bb clarinet
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-10-10 15:20
Same way you tell the difference between a unicorn and a horse. One doesn’t exist.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2023-10-10 19:25
This gets brought up a lot, to the point where I count around a dozen or so alleged B natural clarinets. The problem is there is no evidence to support the existence of modern B natural clarinets such as a piece of sheet music, catalog or an invoice. They did exist in the classical era, but all of the alleged examples are late 19th or early 20th century instruments.
High pitch has been much higher than 452Hz, I personally have an "E natural clarinet" and Andrew Hardo has a Buffet bari sax tuned a semitone high. Nobody is out there claiming that bari saxes in E natural exist, so I see no reason why it should be different for clarinets.
I still have a $50 bounty out for the first person that can provide any documentation that B natural clarinets were made in the 20th century. You would think if they existed there would be some documentation, especially if there are so many alleged examples out there. If anyone has anything please send me an email. I'm happy to be proven wrong but as Carl Sagan said: “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”
-JDbassplayer
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Author: oian
Date: 2023-10-12 02:16
This may help as to a "B" Albert clarinet. The SHERMAN, CLAY & CO. San Francisco 100+ page 1915 catalogue of band instruments has listings for clarinets from Jean Marbeau, Couesnon & CIE Paris and Buffet, Crampon & Co. They all have listings for Albert and a few BOEHN clarinets. The Keys listed are only A, Bb C and Eb in both High and Low pitch.
As an aside, I have a (1900-1910) low pitch Albert C clarinet marked Henry Pourcelle, Paris France LP C, that I got several years ago from the Goodwill auction site. The outside of the case was in terrible condition. When I opened the case, I was surprised to find a clarinet that looked like it had been played very little. The German Silver keys were dull from age (but when polished) looked new. The body, probably Ebony, was shiny without a scratch and the Ebony mouthpiece looked unused. I suspect it spent most of its life tucked away in an attic somewhere. All the pads seal and when I play T123 with the tuner set to 440 the note is right on C.
An interesting note on the mouthpiece, in the catalogue an Ebony mouthpiece was $0.50 while an Ebonite (hard rubber) one was $1.75. And an Ebonite one from Buffet was $ 4.50.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-26 11:12
There is enough factual evidence to repute the concept of many of these B clarinets being high pitch. I have heard a number of bizarre theories. Please provide factual evidence to support ultra-high pitch 461. Buffet clearly advise they rarely made horns to 452, a large number of these B clarinet are well above 452 (not high pitch but French pitch 435) there seems to be little understanding that these theories make no sense when tested against facts. Please support with facts. I have looked for info regarding these ultra-high pitch, found one on-line reference.
Buffet did not make ultra-high pitch, therefore... The Buffets must be....
Post Edited (2023-11-01 03:43)
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2023-10-27 03:37
What I've never understood is why an R13 B♭ clarinet is marked an "R13 B" without the flat symbol:
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-27 13:08
Simple on-line research from multiple sources including the bulletin board and others identifies easily that music was written for the B clarinet. They all say similar things, yes there were/are B clarinets, yes music was written for B clarinets. Music for B clarinet was written for a number of Mozart operas.
Again, I would note the need for simple research and factual evidence is what is required. Not opinion which is instantly proved to be incorrect.
"I ( Richard ), wish to add parenthetically my own explanation that, when mention is made of ''the closely related but extremely rare clarinet in B" used by Mozart, the reference is to a clarinet actually built in that key. This is quite distinct from commonly encountered usage: Normally, of course, in German-speaking countries, when a clarinet part is stipulated as being for the B flat clarinet, it is designated as "Klarinette in B." On the other hand, in those same regions, the pitch of B natural is represented by the letter H. ( For example, J.S. Bach's "Mass in B minor" would be written as: Messe H-moll )."
https://www.reddit.com/r/Clarinet/comments/pkb0s1/is_there_a_clarinet_in_b_natural/
Post Edited (2023-11-01 03:39)
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2023-10-27 16:38
There is no doubt that there were B natural clarinets in the classical era, but by the late romantic/modern era Mozart's operas were transposed for A clarinet.
This 1881 version of Idomeneo utilizes A clarinets in place of the 2 B clarinets.
https://imslp.org/wiki/Idomeneo,_K.366_(Mozart,_Wolfgang_Amadeus)
Likewise this 1881 version of Così fan tutte also uses only Bb, A and C clarinets.
https://imslp.org/wiki/Cos%C3%AC_fan_tutte%2C_K.588_(Mozart%2C_Wolfgang_Amadeus)
Now if someone could find an original part in B natural ("H") from the late 1800s or early 1900s that would be good proof, but as far as we can tell these parts were played on the more common sizes of clarinet at the time.
Regarding A=452 being the maximum pitch that Buffet produced, This Buffet publication lists A=455, so that much be incorrect (page 30):
https://www.saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/920
And we do know Buffet built instruments MUCH higher. Baritone saxophone specialist Andrew Hardo has a Buffet bari that plays almost exactly a semitone sharp:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxVmT7rObFY&t=15s
Also worth noting that in Austria, high pitch was A=461.5 until the 1960s! This shows that higher pitches than A=452hz not only existed in Europe but also stayed around for a long time.
https://rjmartz.com/horns/austrian-high-tuning/
It's entirely possible that some clarinet specialist from the late Romantic era or Modern era commissioned a B natural clarinet to play Mozart as originally intended, but we just don't have any evidence for it. I'm happy to be proven wrong but I find it hard to believe that there are a dozen or so B natural clarinets out there with a few more popping up every year without any documentation. Surely if they were that popular some company would have listed them in a catalog. Selmer listed C bass clarinets in several of their catalogs and according to Douglas Pipher they sold a grand total of.. 3...
-JDbassplayer
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-29 14:42
Hi JD, page 30 in my book is blank????. Page 26 and 452 in my book. I own the original 1962 book. You???? Regarding facts i have provided photographs and had the instrument tested by an expert in period instruments. Tons of evidence facts examples and the clarinet. Unfortunately, your understanding of what constitutes facts is less than ideal. Having the original product in my hand is the ultimate fact😀 Unfortunately yet again your description of the pitch does not address the factual evidence at hand. This horn is in 435 tested by a world class expert. Who advised that the horn is in B. Please provide facts relevant to a 435 B clarinet. 461 in Germany still does not address this matter we are talking about 435 in America here. French pitch as I have provided independent researched documented evidence was common in America. Facts need to be relevant to provide a relevant argument.... I would note the two people who rebut this one stated that high pitch was a semitone high, not true, one said that an alto clarinet was in E because the neck was short. Both horns would have been abysmally out of tune. Great you have done some research, this is a start. Look at the subject matter at hand.
Relevant facts are what is needed... Please
Jd you have presented no relevant factual argument...
Not the way to convince me. As I have stated multiple times I am on the fence, I am simply looking at the facts...
Have a look a the current buffet site they made some crazy horns at the turn of the century. I am currently researching the St louis fair, Buffet showed an enormous number of crazy horns. If you want I can send through some links. jdbassplayer wrote:
> There is no doubt that there were B natural clarinets in the
> classical era, but by the late romantic/modern era Mozart's
> operas were transposed for A clarinet.
>
> This 1881 version of Idomeneo utilizes A clarinets in place of
> the 2 B clarinets.
>
> https://imslp.org/wiki/Idomeneo,_K.366_(Mozart,_Wolfgang_Amadeus)
>
> Likewise this 1881 version of Così fan tutte also uses only
> Bb, A and C clarinets.
>
> https://imslp.org/wiki/Cos%C3%AC_fan_tutte%2C_K.588_(Mozart%2C_Wolfgang_Amadeus)
>
>
> Now if someone could find an original part in B natural ("H")
> from the late 1800s or early 1900s that would be good proof,
> but as far as we can tell these parts were played on the more
> common sizes of clarinet at the time.
>
> Regarding A=452 being the maximum pitch that Buffet produced,
> This Buffet publication lists A=455, so that much be incorrect
> (page 30):
>
> https://www.saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/920
>
> And we do know Buffet built instruments MUCH higher. Baritone
> saxophone specialist Andrew Hardo has a Buffet bari that plays
> almost exactly a semitone sharp:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxVmT7rObFY&t=15s
>
> Also worth noting that in Austria, high pitch was A=461.5 until
> the 1960s! This shows that higher pitches than A=452hz not only
> existed in Europe but also stayed around for a long time.
>
> https://rjmartz.com/horns/austrian-high-tuning/
>
> It's entirely possible that some clarinet specialist from the
> late Romantic era or Modern era commissioned a B natural
> clarinet to play Mozart as originally intended, but we just
> don't have any evidence for it. I'm happy to be proven wrong
> but I find it hard to believe that there are a dozen or so B
> natural clarinets out there with a few more popping up every
> year without any documentation. Surely if they were that
> popular some company would have listed them in a catalog.
> Selmer listed C bass clarinets in several of their catalogs and
> according to Douglas Pipher they sold a grand total of.. 3...
>
> -JDbassplayer
Post Edited (2023-11-01 06:56)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-29 14:48
Your argument does not address a clarinet in 435 (466) As mentioned Buffet did not make clarinets in the pitch you are talking about......A very poor argument...
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-29 15:26
Hi JD I only had a quick look at the Carl Fischer publication that you describe as a buffet publication. A balanced view of the facts would be 435 is stated as the common pitch, exactly as I have stated and provided consistent evidence of. As stated this is a Carl Fischer publicatio ....hmmmm look at the facts and represent them in a balanced and unbiased fashion. I have tried to be impartial and make statements based upon that. Please..,
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-29 15:50
Hi JD regarding the high pitch saxophone. If I took your argument if a horn exist it is factual.... Your processing of the available information confirms what I am saying . I have the horn in my hands. You provide no pitch for the saxophone, as a factual argument... (No facts there)
There are many post on the bb of people having clarinets in b made to play the works as mentioned. It's great you have an opinion. I work in facts all day long, Nothing challenging yet.
Remember I am neutral on this horn.... I am basing what I am saying on the facts, an instrument compared by bore dimension, pitch, length, tested by a world class expert on period instrument. I have not considered tone hole volume impact, which has the least impact on the volume of the horn and is for the sake of this discussion too hard to do.
Based upon documented evidence that supports this pitch was common at the time. The information provided by you supports this was a common pitch. The available documents advise Buffet did not make horns in any of the pitches you note.
Facts
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-29 16:19
The problem is you are being proven wrong and you are not happy about it😀
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2023-10-29 21:57
>Having the original product in my hand is the ultimate fact😀
>Hi JD regarding the high pitch saxophone. If I took your argument if a horn exist it
>is factual.... Your processing of the available information confirms what I am
>saying . I have the horn in my hands. You provide no pitch for the saxophone, as
>a factual argument... (No facts there)
These two statements are contradictory... There's a pitch listed right in the video, If you want a pitch in the standard format that would be A=~466Hz. Much higher than A=452Hz. You can't say that your instrument is a "fact" but someone else's instrument (also verified by an expert, it would be very hard to argue that Andrew is not a bari sax specialist) is not. Facts are still facts even if you don't agree with them...
You are correct that it is a Carl Fischer publication, not a Buffet Paris publication. Carl Fischer was the largest US distributor for Buffet clarinets though. This shows that Buffet clarinets would have been made to A=455Hz. I am happy to admit that I made an error, but the underlying point still stands.
>Your argument does not address a clarinet in 435 (466) As mentioned Buffet did
>not make clarinets in the pitch you are talking about......A very poor argument...
The HP bari shows otherwise. Again, facts are still facts even if you don't agree with them.
>This horn is in 435 tested by a world class expert. Who advised that the horn is
>in B.
Okay, but what about the key that the maker originally intended? A Bb clarinet at A=~461 would be fundamentally the same as a B natural clarinet at A=435Hz. The question is, what is more likely to occur? We know there were instruments tuned to A=461.5Hz, it's strange to find one in America yes but at least we know they must have existed somewhere in the world. A late Romantic or Modern B natural clarinet? We do not have any direct evidence at this time. I don't doubt you in the slightest that your clarinet plays as a B natural clarinet at A=435Hz, but we do not have any documentation that proves that that is the original key the maker intended.
>There are many post on the bb of people having clarinets in b made to play the
>works as mentioned.
These are period clarinets though. All of the claimed original B natural clarinets are either Albert system or Boehm system. it is much easier to make a custom period clarinet than to make an instrument with modern key work. This also doesn't take into account the fact that the movement to play pieces in historically accurate instruments is more of a recent phenomenon.
>The problem is you are being proven wrong and you are not happy about it😀
Being condescending and saying "facts" does not make your argument better. I have tried to be polite and am always happy to discuss the history of clarinets, but taunting is just childish.
As stated before, I am happy to be proven wrong and I am literally paying $50 to the first person to do so. Let me repeat that, am literally paying money for someone to prove me wrong! Proving they exist would mean I could start hunting for them and eventually restore some, as finding, restoring and playing rare clarinets is my passion. Until then, my concern is that people will try to sell HP Bb clairnets as "B natural" clarinets which I personally feel is unethical when we don't even have any direct evidence for there existence in the late Romantic/Modern era.
In any case, I think this discussion has run its course. If you ever come across some direct evidence like a catalog, invoice or a piece of music that can be accurately dated please send it my way and collect your $50. Until then, we have no direct documentation of B natural clarinets in the late Romantic/Modern era.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-30 02:49
JD
"You are correct that it is a Carl Fischer publication, not a Buffet Paris publication. Carl Fischer was the largest US distributor for Buffet clarinets though. This shows that Buffet clarinets would have been made to A=455Hz. I am happy to admit that I made an error, but the underlying point still stands."
It shows nothing of the sort, please this is silly. From what I remember Carl Fischer sold a variety of brands and instrument some were stencils.
This only show carl fischer sold "some" instruments at that pitch, it does not even mention buffet. Please read what you are saying, please be logical, make sense.
I have provided, and you have likely seen the buffet books (this is called a primary source, the better quality information) that says they did not make instruments to that pitch. This is printed documented distributed, published information. That is called facts.
JD you have been provided with, read, seen documentation, published information (the very stuff you want for facts) and seen that buffet did not make instruments to 461... They did not have the equipment to build them to that... Its great you have an opinion that they did (see above) They did have the equipment to build to 435 (I know the same pitch results and different notes) Again please stick to the documented, published by the manufacturer facts not what you want things to be. Unfortunately, you are ignoring the very things you say you would like. See below for???
"Okay, but what about the key that the maker originally intended? A Bb clarinet at A=~461 would be fundamentally the same as a B natural clarinet at A=435Hz. The question is, what is more likely to occur? We know there were instruments tuned to A=461.5Hz, it's strange to find one in America yes but at least we know they must have existed somewhere in the world. A late Romantic or Modern B natural clarinet? We do not have any direct evidence at this time. I don't doubt you in the slightest that your clarinet plays as a B natural clarinet at A=435Hz, but we do not have any documentation that proves that that is the original key the maker intended."
Its great you doubt world class experts and their opinion. Again the problem is if you look at the facts that it is the reverse of what you are saying a B clarinet at 435 is the same pitch as a Bb clarinet 461, problem is as we know from the documented facts Buffet did not make clarinets to 461. Buffet did not make the horn you are talking about again this is one of your arguments that does not stand any factual test. Please align your opinion in a logical order that is congruent with itself and the documented evidence. As occurs now people get instruments made for many reasons some to play Mozart works blah blah blah.
Like you I have an interesting collection.
As you highlighted 461 in Germany still does not address this matter we are talking about 435 in America here. French pitch as I have provided independent researched documented evidence was common in America. Not rare and unusual as your suggestion is, get a clarinet made for America in a German pitch what tha????.
Provide some documented fact as you are asking for and I am providing, be consistent with the documented facts.
You called it a buffet baritone. I could not see, identify any brand. Nor does the screen show any brand. Nor does the player mention any brand. Please provide accurate statements that are relevant. I cannot see how this proves anything, a random you tube showing someone who seems like a nice guy playing a number of low instruments and their bottom notes.
"The HP bari shows otherwise"
Further as we all know the bottom notes are where the 'tuning compromises' are usually made. So what you are implying is that the lowest and likely most out of tune notes on an instrument prove the pitch of the horn validates your argument. No one I know would think this was even a vaguely good way to tune.
Please do you really want to run with that??????? That would likely make most of my modern clarinets low Es in what pitch???? a very silly argument.
There is no-one taunting here the problem is you are saying things with no factual base and calling them facts, what you are providing is opinions and poor ones at that.
I am basing what I am saying on the facts, an instrument compared by bore dimension, pitch, length, tested by a world class expert on period instrument. I have not considered tone hole volume impact, which has the least impact on the volume of the horn and is for the sake of this discussion too hard to do.
Based upon documented evidence that supports this pitch was common at the time. The information provided by you supports this was a common pitch. The available documents advise Buffet did not make horns in any of the pitches you note.
I agree trying sell a Bb horn as a B horn is unethical. Lucky that was never mentioned, nor suggested, nor implied and in a previous thread I clearly stated that had not occurred and I had no intention of doing that. So this comment is totally irrelevant to the matter.
Now I work as an expert witness providing factual evidence to courts that is impartial. I have three auditing qualifications and two investigation qualification.
The following information you provided fails to meet the criteria for factual evidence. You have failed consistently to provide relevant factual arguments. Documentation is one form of confirmation. Interestingly you have totally ignored the documented factual arguments presented to you (buffet book, a primary source) and chosen to use unsubstantiated books (carl fischer publication, that does not mention Buffet an irrelevant source) you have consistently refuted the very documentation you say you want, which to your dislike demonstrates what you are saying is incorrect.
From my skills and experience the weakest form of verification is usually documentation the actual product/job in hand is always far more valid and factual. Let me know when you are willing to part with your $50, its highly unethical to state you will do something publicly that you have no intention of doing in reality.
"If you ever come across some direct evidence like a catalog, invoice or a piece of music that can be accurately dated please send it my way and collect your $50. Until then, we have no direct documentation of B natural clarinets in the late Romantic/Modern era."
You have now clearly states there is music for a B clarinet and there wer B clarinets. Excellent
If we use your argument, we cant say dinosaur bones are a fact, nor the horizon.... There's no catalogue.. Don't walk near the edge you may fall off:)
Did you go through the various BB threads were a person said they had a broken set of four clarinets. A, Bb, B and C and the case???? No catalogue....
On a note have you looked at the Buffet site for the crazy instruments they made and the number of instruments they displayed at the St Louis fair.
Post Edited (2023-11-06 12:04)
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-10-30 05:03
Interesting.
My Albert system C clarinet (marked "Buffet Crampon" and "HP") plays in tune as a "clarinet in C#". I think it's in the garage in a box somewhere.... (we have about 100 clarinets that made the grade to be stored INSIDE)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-30 05:35
Hi Donald.
I am always happy to discuss facts.
Get it out, give us some measurement.
Play it to the tuner.
Take some photos.
Have you got a serial number/date?
Lets talk some facts????
Post Edited (2023-10-30 07:29)
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-10-30 11:38
"let's talk some facts" are you accusing me of making something up? What a great big jerk!
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-10-30 11:59
Plus this annoying obsession some people have with the LENGTH of the clarinet is irritating- it gives only a cursory indication of pitch (gee wizz, you might also have to take into account the bore and tonehole location/size, plus mouthpiece capacity)
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2023-10-30 13:25
crazyclari wrote:
>
> JD you have been provided with, read, seen documentation,
> published information (the very stuff you want for facts) and
> seen that buffet did not make instruments to 461... They did
> not have the equipment to build them to that... Its great you
> have an opinion that they did (see above) They did have the
> equipment to build to 435 (I know the same pitch results and
> different notes)
I may have misunderstood something, but if they had equipment to make a B natural clarinet tuned to A=435, then by definition they also had equipment to make a Bb clarinet tuned to A=461. They could simply use the B-natural equipment, right?
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-31 02:30
Regarding the instruments that were made by Buffet at the time. It seems like i am the only person to look at the Buffet websites and see what they did at the time. Seems like there are many people that have opinions.
https://www.buffet-crampon.com/en/our-story/
In 1907 Buffet featured:
14 oboe models of various systems in Bb, C, Db and Eb pastoral Oboes in G and Ab oboe d'amore in A, musettes in Ab, 8 different types of cor anglais and bartyon oboes, 18 bassoon type in C, D, and E simplified bassoons in F and G as well.
Simply at the time they were by modern standards ,makimg some crazy instruments in craxy chromatic keys.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-31 02:38
Hi Donald,
You seem to think there is something personal about wanting to talk facts.
This should be the goal.
Unfortunately your trolling type behaviour from your opening lines in previous emails and this has been of concern, offensive, uncalled for and repeated.
I am always happy to talk facts with anyone.
As has been demonstrated earlier in this and other threads there is confusion about simple history in many cases.
Simply look at the previous posts a number of people making comment without basic research and facts to support them.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-10-31 02:59
Yes, from what i have seen they could have. And to be honest may have. Like I said I sit on the fence. Sitting on the fence they 'could have' made ultra-high pitch clarinets and French pitch to the same specification, on the same day.
The problem is no-one is providing any factual information to support that level of 461 ultra-high pitch for Bb clarinets in use in especially America. Yet a number seem to be arguing the point, based totally on opinion. The people supporting this concept have not provide a shred of evidence that 461 was in use anywhere in America with Boehm system clarinets. Austria yes, likely with the various clarinet systems in use in Austria and Germany. As Carl Sagan said: “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” please provide some for your extraordinary claims....
I have provided researched evidence I think it was for a PHD supporting the relatively common use of French Pitch in the USA. The clarinet has been played by a period instrument expert who confirmed the pitch. I have provided documented evidence that Buffet made clarinets to 435 and not to 461.
There may well be clarinets out there in both camps.
This is why I keep asking for facts as it seems most of what I have read so far is opinion based on very little to nothing that is of relevance or makes sense. (Usually/always nothing and non-sensical)
Happy for any valid evidence for either argument. Donald mentions he has a large number of clarinets but has yet to provide any pitches or dimensions. He mentioned a clarinet marked as HP and has not provided any factual evidence about the horn. Nor the horns pitch confirmed by a period instrument expert. The clarinet I am talking about is not marked as high pitch.
Others are pretty much the same, referencing off to who knows what sometimes, frankly it has got embarrassing and offensive.
The buffet quote above shows how at the time the instruments they manufactured were vastly different to what I would and likely others would consider normal. An Oboe in C is basically what you would expect now, then they made 14 oboe models of various systems in Bb, C, Db and Eb
This present an argument for the B clarinet, unfortunately they do not have the similar clarinet information at Buffet, as I have emailed them.
From the same website they had in production 226 instruments again a huge number by modern standards. They exhibited at the 1904 St Louis Fair and I am currently looking at researching through the relevant history museums.
Currently I am awaiting BANDS AT THE ST. LOUIS WORLD'S FAIR OF 1904. It will not likely help with the clarinets, but it does highlight how amazing the time was and how different.
Historically this was a pretty amazing time for instruments in a diverse range of keys and music played. The fair was used be the major manufacturers as a display. E.g. Selmer won a prize e.g. St Louis clarinet. I believe buffet displayed a very large number of instruments.
The B clarinet I own was made in January 1904 and is a full Boehm unibody. My suspicion is that it may have been made as a display model. Of course, unproven and never likely to be proven. Who knows, certainly not the people making up stuff.....
So far it seems you are more likely to find a unicorn than a Boehm clarinet in 461.
Post Edited (2023-11-01 07:04)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-11-01 07:20
Hi sorry to see you question was previously treated so rudely.
Simply (too simply)
French pitch 435, used in France and other places
Low pitch 440, now used generally
442 pitch often used on student instruments and in some places
Up to 452-455 at the extreme for high pitch played in many places
461 Used in Austria
There is no hard rule for the above and there are many variations over time.
In the past there is a greater variety of pitches which I have not noted above. Certainly huge variations.
High pitch clarinets 452 are about half a semitone sharp and markedly shorter than a low pitch clarinet. Roughly if you take of 1mm for 2cents tuning. So you would need to take of 6mm to make a high pitch Bb play one note in tune for a B clarinet. The rest of the horn would be grossly out of tune.
For the B Clarinet that I have with a 67mm barrel in 435, French pitch. If I used a shorter barrel of 64mm it plays at 440. The B I have is full Boehm and is with 1-2mm of the same length as a standard Bb. Mine is longer than a high pitch Bb (full boehm).
Feel free to let me know if this does not answer your question?
Author: ebonite
Date: 2023-10-10 14:26
I'm curious about how people distinguish between a (possibly slightly out-of-tune) low pitch B natural clarinet and a high pitch Bb clarinet
Post Edited (2023-11-05 08:14)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-11-06 12:43
I would note tbat I have read of clarinets with a 60mm barrel which in my opinion is likely a high pitch Bb clarinet with a very short barrel. E.g. 452 minus 6mm 12 cents equals 440
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2023-11-15 10:25
Hi all this is a very interesting link on 435/452/457/461 its about brass instruments but has some relevance
https://www.robbstewart.com/high-pitch-and-low-pitch
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Author: lydian
Date: 2024-07-08 16:19
Chuck, bitlife has not posted anything in this thread. So you’re in the wrong thread. But that would typically refer to the fingering for low C, thumb and first three fingers.
EDIT: Nevermind. I see that this is a spambot.
Post Edited (2024-07-09 00:55)
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Author: yakatraz
Date: 2024-12-25 19:50
Hi Eric,
It sounds like you have a B-flat (Bb) clarinet, but the issue you're describing might be related to the tuning or how you're adjusting the instrument.
When you finger T123, it should generally produce a B-flat on a B-flat clarinet. However, if you're getting a B, it could be that the tuning is off. Pulling out the barrel of the clarinet (or pulling out the tuning slide) to adjust the pitch is a common practice for fine-tuning, so you're likely compensating for this discrepancy in pitch.
The Albert system clarinet is indeed a B-flat clarinet, and the pitch you're experiencing may just be a result of either a slight maladjustment or the need for further tuning tweaks. I would suggest checking the alignment of the pads and making sure that the bore is clean, as this can sometimes affect pitch as well.
Hope that helps!
Best regards,
Post Edited (2024-12-25 19:52)
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Author: donald
Date: 2024-12-26 03:24
Hey Yakatraz,
"the Albert system clarinet is indeed a B-flat clarinet" is a little nonsensical, Albert system clarinets were, like other systems, built in a variety of keys.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2024-12-26 06:03
At the start of the twentieth century. 435 was a very common pitch in American Orchestras due to the inflow of French and German musicians. It was also the official pitch of the world's fair in St Louis and also the pitch of the professional bands such as Sousa's and others. 435 was also endorsed by the US band directors association at about this time. Likely there was vastly more community instruments out there at the time in high pitch up to, as I have previously provided 454. The trick is not to confuse French pitch and high pitch.
I once had a student who played the entire clarinet bottom register one semitone flat. I can't say how he did it, but he did. He was in his 90s, nice guy. It was beyond just embochure.
Bizzarely the treaty of Versailles set 440 in 1919 as the pitch standard which was taken up in America relatively quickly. The Salvation Army in the UK was still making high pitch horns up to 454, for players that played flat🙃until after the second world war.
Basically there will be a good number of 435 French pitch horns out there.😀
Post Edited (2024-12-26 06:39)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-12-26 20:28
While it's not a B clarinet, the clarinet player in the film "The Glenn Miller Story" appears to be playing a Db clarinet judging by the fingerings he's using in the 'Moonlight Serenade' scene.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: donald
Date: 2024-12-27 01:31
I used to have an old Gerrard turtable that played so sharp that I could play along with Alfred Prinz on K622 with my Bb clarinet. OR did the Vienna Phil play at A=666?
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2024-12-27 13:14
The really famous one was kind of blue, the A master was running slow and when they transferred the master and put it on to record it was super sharp. It stayed that way for about 30. + Years. The B master was finally used by Sony. Ridiculous really, the all time most popular jazz album in history, nearly half a semitone out in this day and age. Direct drive Luxman fixed it😀
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2024-12-27 13:24
The really famous one was kind of blue, the A master was running slow and when they transferred the master and put it on to record it was super sharp. It stayed that way for about 30. + Years. The B master was finally used by Sony. Ridiculous really, the all time most popular jazz album in history, nearly half a semitone out in this day and age. Direct drive Luxman fixed it😀
There's a lot of information out there on the tuning forks that various Orchestras have used through the 19-20th century if you want to sus it out. Galpin society etc, PHD papers etc. It provides great factual information on the pitches used in many locations, Orchestras and their changes in pitch. The research all shows increases in pitch, sometimes quite dramatically during the 19-20th century. The settling in some places on 435 was an attempt to rectify the spiralling pitch rise. In America the professional groups seemed to be generally aiming for 435
It's great to see they are now adjusting older film speeds to the correct speeds. WW 1 footage now makes sense over 100 years later. I think the same problem occurs with the older record drums as well. I never checked my old phonogram😀
I'll slap on Alfred and Leopold and see how they shape up😀
Post Edited (2024-12-27 14:00)
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Author: donald
Date: 2024-12-27 13:42
Funny you bring up tuning forks... FA Uebel (the actual person, not the company) had a tuning fork that had been supplied to him as kit when he apprenticed with Oskar Oehler around the turn of the century... it was at the company workshop until the 80s and rang at A=440 surprisingly enough.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2024-12-27 14:02
As noted in my revised pitches spiralled up. Who knows he was well known as a great maker . It would make sense. As noted previously treaty of Versailles was imposed on Germany 1919, 440 was set, maybe a token gesture, who knows...
Post Edited (2024-12-27 14:05)
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Author: Natam17
Date: 2024-12-28 02:54
crazyclari wrote:
> It shows nothing of the sort, please this is silly.
> From what I remember Carl Fischer sold
> a variety of brands and instrument some were stencils.
> This only show carl fischer sold "some" instruments
> at that pitch, it does not even mention buffet.
> Please read what you are saying, please be logical, make sense.
jdbassplayer wrote:
> https://www.saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/920
I don't have a horse in this odd race about B natural clarinets, but there should be no question that Carl Fischer did sell Buffet instruments. There are plenty of Buffet clarinets with the Carl Fischer logo on them. I have a nice set myself. And the Carl Fischer publication in question does mention representing Buffet on page 4, as well as throughout the publication.
jdbassplayer: thanks for the link, it was an interesting read.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2024-12-28 11:52
Hi Natml7 yes Carl Fischer did do all that. This comment was in reference by the person I was responding to. The response was in frustration to both myself and the other person having access to the Buffet book from the 60s. The Buffet book clearly describes that Buffet had the equipment to make clarinets from 435 to occasionally 452. It was at best disappointing for the other person to ignore the facts we both had and knew about and had discussed in what seemed like an endeavour to misrepresent what Buffet actually made. Carl Fischer indeed sold lots of stuff. Buffet made lots of stuff between the pitches of 435 and 452. Happy to provide a scan of the relevant pages, by the way this was the second time this person had selectively chosen references, so a bit disappointing to deal with.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2024-12-28 20:19
Crazy...
Yes, please...provide the scan. It would sure be nice for the rest of us to see it.
The turn of the century was an amazingly productive time for many instrument makers. Lots of (what we would consider today) odd or unusual instruments.
It wouldn't be surprising at all to see a B clarinet...but I haven't seen one yet - nor an advertisement for one. It would sure be cool to see one advertised.
Conn, Haynes, etc. made some nice metal double-walled clarinet specimens in that time frame - even "armored" clarinets. Double-belled euphoniums, etc. (By the way - I can't speak for the one in Arizona - but there's a great National Museum of Music in Vermillion, South Dakota. I heartily recommend to folks - regardless of instrument of interest.)
At any rate, it would be cool to see adverts for a B clarinet. I don't know about Buffet - but I know Conn and Selmer produced very detailed information about their offerings.
Warmest Regards,
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
[Edit: corrected spelling]
[2nd Edit: changed "D clarinet" to what I intended to type - "B clarinet"]
Post Edited (2024-12-30 08:37)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-01-12 02:22
Below is an edited version of the following document. I have attempted to remove irrelevant information and not distort the relevant information. Hopefully this shoud provide documented evidence and a basis of information.
The Historical Development of Concert Pitch in the U.S.A. Orchestras by Pedro Falcon
Certainly, there was not a determined pitch level during the Renaissance. It varied because of the different techniques, artisans of instruments, and locations. Just one city could have a different pitch for different ensembles.
In the first half of the 19th century (1800–65) American became more extensive geographically and also in a cosmopolitan aspect. It greatly influenced the development of musical life in America. During the immigration of Europeans to America in the 19th century, America started to receive well-trained and experienced musicians, especially from Germany. Those German musicians joined American orchestras. Because of the European influence, American orchestras established a standard of A′ = 435 Hz.
The A′ = 435 Hz (it was known as the diapason normal),11 was first established in Paris in 1859. It was also known as the “French Pitch.” After that, it became internationally recognized at the International Conference on the Tuning Fork celebrated in Vienna in 1885. Nothing had created more controversy in musical life than the concept of a unified or defined international concert pitch.
Since the “diapason normal” A′ = 435 Hz was imposed as a reference for tuning in 1885. However, it did not truly have an impact on performance practice. The real practice used a range between A′ = 415 Hz to A′ = 456 Hz. As the “diapason normal” A′ = 435 Hz was a common reference for tuning in American orchestras of the early nineteenth century. For example, the Great Organ of the Boston Music Hall that was built in 1863, was tuned in A′ = 435 Hz. In his journal, Charles R. Cross wrote: “In 1868, the French pitch was introduced as a standard into the public schools of Boston, by a vote of the School Committee, although it never obtained a firm foothold there.”13 Nevertheless, because of the constant rise of the pitch, the Great Organ was returned in 1871 in A′ = 455.8 Hz. However, the Great Organ for the Boston Music Hall was disassembled in 1884.
In 1882, the New England Conservatory of Music, under the director Eben Tourjee tried to introduce the “French pitch”. However, the standard chosen was a C′ = 264 Hz. A sixth below the “French pitch”. In other words, this standard pitch used in the New England Conservatory of Music had a “Pythagorean” relationship with an A′ = 440 Hz.
The first great consensus about a standard tuning pitch in America was made in 1889 when the National Music Teachers' Association met in Philadelphia. They adopted the “French pitch”. Also, the “French pitch” was implemented by the National League of Musicians at Milwaukee in 1891. Although, when the National Music Teachers' Association supported the “French pitch”, the reality in performance practice was different.
During this period of time, New York City saw the rise of the great orchestra conductor Theodore Thomas. He was well known as the first renowned American orchestral conductor. Additionally, Theodore Thomas was also respected for his good administrative skills. Thomas organized orchestra tours in New York, Philadelphia, Cincinnati, St. Louis, Milwaukee, Chicago, and Europe. In 1882, the orchestra of Theodore Thomas used a pitch higher than the French pitch. This pitch was an A′ = 437.4 Hz.14 Theodore Thomas became the first music director of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra (1891).
According to J. C. Deagan, “Musicians and instrument manufacturers who insist that A′ = 435 Hz is the correct low pitch fail to take into consideration the fact that the French Government Commission in the official draft stipulated that the pitch should be A′ = 435 vibrations set in a temperature of 15 degrees Centigrade (59 degrees Fahrenheit).”16
The relation that Deagan draws between the tuning process and the temperature is interesting. He inferred that the rise of pitch by instrument makers in America started as a response to the different temperatures in which the “French pitch” was created. J. C. Deagan said that “American instrument makers who attempted to tune their product to A = 435, at what we consider normal temperature (68 to 72 degrees Fahrenheit) soon found out their error, as from all sources they received the complaint "Your instruments are too flat!" Rather than jeopardize their reputation in this respect the progressive manufacturers soon switched over to A =440 and have since received practically no complaints regarding pitch.”17
American orchestras used to tune around A′ = 440 Hz., even when the standard for tuning in America was the “French pitch”. It was not until 1917 that The American Federation of Musicians adopted the “Scheibler pitch” A′ = 440 Hz. Concert pitch is a term that is used to appoint the agreement of tune with a certain A′: using as a reference the vibrations per second of the note A′. Those vibrations are measured in Hertz. According to the Concise Oxford Dictionary of Music, concert pitch is “the pitch internationally agree in 1960 by which the note A′ has 440 vibrations per second.”19
1 Daniel Levitin, Absolute memory for musical pitch: Evidence from the production of learned melodies. Attention Perception & Psychophysics 56 (415). DOI: 10.3758/BF03206733 2 Dr. Lynn Cavanagh, A Brief History of the Establishment of International Standard Pitch a=440 hertz. https://www.wam.hr/sadrzaj/us/Cavanagh_440Hz.pdf page
3 http://webdictionary.net/orchestra/
4 Edward Phillips. The New World of English Words, 1658.
5 Bruce Haynes, Robin Spencer. The Eloquent Oboe: A History of the Hautboy 1640-1760. Oxford University Press, 2001. Page 136
6 J.-J. Rousseau, Jean-Jacques. Livre Dictionnaire de musique. 1712-1778. Page 358
12 Marco, Fanini. Giuseppe Verdi: A=432 only scientific tuning https://larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1989/eirv16n09-19890224/eirv16n09-19890224_026- giuseppe_verdi_a432_only_scienti.pdf
13 Charles R. Cross. Historical Notes Relating to Musical Pitch in the United States. Page 453
16 J. C. Deagan. A = 440 Pitch Adopted: Pitch versus Temperature. The Musical Quarterly, Vol. 4, No. 4. Oxford University Press. Page. 587
17 J. C. Deagan. A = 440 Pitch Adopted: Pitch versus Temperature. The Musical Quarterly, Vol. 4, No. 4. Oxford University Press. Page. 588
Post Edited (2025-01-12 02:32)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2025-01-14 07:45
Thanks crazy,
I've read similar histories of pitch over the years.
Would you please clarify how this supports the existence of the B clarinet? (Please - I'm not challenging you - I'm just wanting to make sure I'm following correctly.)
I thought maybe you had the scans from the Buffet book? Quote:
Buffet made lots of stuff between the pitches of 435 and 452. Happy to provide a scan of the relevant pages
Perhaps I have misunderstood?
Thanks,
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-01-14 14:42
Hi fuzzy,
Thanks for your interest.
I have the original of the buffet book and a couple of others from various manufacturers. They state that Buffet made clarinets from 435 and occasionally up to 452.
Basically I have B clarinet in 435, unibody full Boehm.
There have been a number of arguments presented that this clarinet is tuned to
- ultra high pitch 460+ or
- corten pitch a renaissance pitch
These theories were supported by zero evidence or facts with a bit of name calling thrown in.
They also make no sense, nor are they logical. Instruments cost significantly more then proportionally, than now. To have a horn made for a pitch that had not been used, that was in use before America was discovered and at the time was likely a forgotten pitch in America is frankly bizzare.
The article highlights the common nature of 435, total lack of ultra high pitches.
Official pitch 435 at world's fair, Sousa's band and the other professional band etc. Confirming the logic of 435 pitch.
Current Buffet site highlights the much greater variety of keys instruments were designed in at the time.
Further the instrument has been played by a world class period instrument specialist who advised it is in 435. So much evidence there is no doubt. The length of the horn is within 1-2 mm of a current similar 14.8 mm bore clarinet.
Zero factual evidence from the na sayers.
Totally open to find out I am wrong, basically I listened to what has been said researched that information and included it where relevant in my response and came to the above conclusion based on the clearly available facts.
Much of the above info was on another thread.
Thanks for your interest.😀
Post Edited (2025-01-28 13:56)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-04-14 09:06
I would note that the 1912 Buffet/Carl Fischer catalogue "advises that all band and orchestral instruments are tuned to 435 or 455. There is no evidence of your 461 pitch anywhere.....
This is clear documented evidence of a all clarinets being tuned in 435 ,or 455.
If I remember I calculated the equivalent pitch for 435 higher at 464, than your 461.
Likely your 461 is not accurate.
Still zero competent, factual or logical information from the naysayers.
The catalogue from the time (1912 i think) states that;
"Musical instruments are regulated according to the so called High and low pitch each one having a distinct standard of its own.
The absolute pitch of a tone is determined by the number of (double) vibrations it makes per second, Low or international pitch gives to the A 435 (double) vibrations it makes per second, and this is stated as a vibration number.
The present Low or Internation Pitch give to the middle A 435 pitch, (double) vibrations per second and the High or Concert pitch, gives to the middle A 435 vibrations.
All band an orchestra instruments are tuned according to these vibration numbers. Of the two, Low pitch is used to the greatest extent at present and there is every probability that the time is not far distant when it will be the only pitch used."
Waiting on further confirmation from a document at the Library of Congress.
There is no 461 pitch. Time to pay up JD, time to be ethical.....
Post Edited (2025-04-28 09:45)
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2025-04-14 13:46
I don't have a horse in this race, but there is something I don't understand about the reasoning in this thread.
1. We can all agree that a Bb clarinet tuned to A=461 (assuming that is the right number?) is the exact same instrument as a B clarinet tuned to A=435. It's the same instrument with two different names. So the debate is about what we call the instrument, not about anything intrinsic to the instrument itself.
2. As I understand from crazyclari, there are no documents where Buffet advertised clarinets tuned to A=461 as a pitch standard, but there are documents where Buffet advertised clarinets tuned to 435, and there is a Fischer catalogue that lists 435 and 455 as the two orchestral/band pitch standards, but does not list 461.
3. As far as I know (but please correct me if I'm wrong), there are no documents where Buffet advertised a clarinet in the key of B, but there are obviously very many where clarinets were advertised in Bb. If the Fischer catalogue lists all the keys that orchestral/band clarinets can be built in, then I am guessing that B natural does not appear on this list, but Bb does.
So, we could argue that we should call crazyclari's instrument a clarinet in B natural, because A=435 was a pitch standard that Buffet advertised, and they never advertised instruments at A=461. This argument relies on assuming that Buffet produced an instrument in a key (B natural) that it never advertised.
Or, we could argue that we should call it a clarinet in Bb because this was a key that Buffet advertised, and they never advertised instruments in B natural. This argument relies on assuming that Buffet produced an instrument in a pitch standard (461) that it never advertised.
If we accept that crazyclari's instrument was a one-off production, perhaps made to order, then it is likely that it was something that never appeared in Buffet's sales literature, and that it deviated from advertised products in one way or another. What I don't understand is why we must conclude that it deviated in key, rather than in pitch standard.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2025-04-15 01:21
It all comes down to the intent of the maker. If Buffet truly made a B natural clarinet then that would be fascinating from an organology perspective. If however they just made clarinets tuned higher than what we typically consider high pitch then it doesn’t really change what we already know about historically informed performance during the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-04-18 04:35
The basic problem from naysayers is pretty much a total lack of research. The naysayers claim these horns are in 465. Historically informed basic research shows this pitch was never recorded in any historical documents, nor Is there a single shred of historically informed factual evidence to support 465 ever in the US or anywhere. Simply the naysayers appear to have totally made up a pitch to suit there needs. 465 does not exist. What can I say.....
On the other hand at the turn of 1900, 435 was likely the most common pitch out there. It seems pretty clear that some of these clarinets have been marked in the US, not at the factory with HP. Seems likely to me that the person doing the stamping did not have a clue. That is an opinion. Mine is not stamped.
HP as is well documented is 452/3/4/5. Again the naysayer have not done the basic research, they have invented theories that are not historically informed and have again, zero supporting factual evidence. 465 is not supported in any document as being high pitch, why, it does not exist.There is well over a hundred years of documented evidence and research to support this opinion, naysayers zero factual evidence to support that 465 is high pitch, or even exists.
So far the nay sayers have provided zero, the impression I have is that they don't know, they dont know. Currently there is a distinct lack of historically informed comment otherwise the theories would be based on something......
Regarding intent, if it is in 465 it would uselsss, the pitch was neeeeever used, does not exissssst, if in 435 the most common pitch at the time good for thrash metal clarinet in B. 😀 As noted previously Buffet was making some crazy stuff around this time e.g. Db oboe. I have the impression they were out to impress at the worlds fair in 1904.
In my opinion this is why it is not a pitch variation, 465 useless, 435 playable with the majority of groups at the time.
Regarding custom made clarinets, I have a number of custom made clarinets by a major maker, that are not, and will not be in catalogues. No surprise there really. You pay mozza money, you get the goods.
I can't say for others, but it seems pretty clear to me and the period clarinet player that tried it...
Post Edited (2025-04-23 14:27)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2025-04-18 10:55
crazyclari: what mouthpiece did you and your “expert in period instruments” use to check the pitch of your B clarinet? Do you have the original mouthpiece?
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-04-18 12:45
Far less than the ideal. Playnick and a Moba. I am in the process of having an older mouthpiece re faced by Ed pillinger. I do not have the original mouthpiece. I have previously discussed the tuning stuff happy to go over it again. Let me know.The Moba plays more in tune. I have a number of older mouthpieces. I will await the mouthpiece being refaced. My goal is that the more period mouthpiece will have it play more in tune with itself. Totally open to suggestions? I do not believe that a different mouthpiece will change the pitch significantly.
Post Edited (2025-04-19 03:28)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-04-19 01:42
One of the bizzare theories I have heard is that as there are 12+ of these out there, there should be a catalogue and without that..... Reality is that if there 12+ out there it is overwhelming proof of their existence. The real problem is a lack of basic historically based research skills and knowledge despite repeated requests to provide the same.
If we had 12 basset horns played by Stadler this would be the holy grail.
12 B clarinets....
So time for the bank account details JD?
Post Edited (2025-04-19 10:05)
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2025-04-19 22:19
Attachment: IMG_5993.jpeg (1607k)
Attachment: IMG_5994.jpeg (1185k)
Not wanting to be left out of the fun, I decided to acquire my own “B natural” clarinet. The instrument I purchased is a 1907 Buffet imported by H. Bettoney. This is from the same era as many of the other claimed B natural clarinets. The instrument came with an original H. Bettoney adjustable barrel which is 67mm at its shortest. In total the length of this instrument is 56.8cm, a bit shorter than most HP clarinets. Using a period correct Buffet mouthpiece (a very nice Buffet “Evettine”) and with the barrel pulled out about 1mm the instrument plays very well as a B natural clarinet at A=435.
https://youtube.com/shorts/dA9EuB6Kofc?si=Cn-6pBst3dU1fnrU
This is with a 67mm barrel, with a shorter barrel like many of the alleged B natural clarinets have (the ones I’ve seen for sale typically have aftermarket barrels in the 60mm range) it can get up to 440. I also ripped off the cork on the upper tenon to confirm that the instrument has not been shortened and that it still has the original tenon. Even the pads seem original.
The only problem? This clarinet is marked HP on both the bell and the upper joint. To me this is definitive proof that HP Buffet clarinets of the time were just tuned very sharp. It would explain why all of the alleged B natural clarinets are from either the last decade of the 19th century or the first decade of the 20th century.
-JDbassplayer
Edit: fixed link
Post Edited (2025-04-20 00:53)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-04-20 01:14
If only high pitch was 465 anywhere in the world at any time, as usual please provide some facts........
And BTW the Buffet/Carl Fischer documents from the time say they didn't make.
You must have the multiverse version😀
Again, as always zero facts....
Maybe it is time to start that historically based research you mentioned.....
And pay up, mine is not stamped...
Post Edited (2025-04-20 02:09)
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2025-04-20 01:44
Here’s the same instrument and mouthpiece, but with a 65mm barrel and the tuner set to A=440Hz. This would be equivalent to a Bb clarinet at A=466:
https://youtube.com/shorts/m35S82cAieA?si=As1zUOm1ND6NmfYO
Even if A=465Hz was never used at a pitch standard, this clarinet can be played at that pitch with the right barrel even though it is marked as a high pitch clarinet. I can see why people would be convinced that this is a B natural clarinet, it can be made to play that high with the right barrel.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-04-20 02:38
Time to pay up....
Yours
Buffet advise that this was not a pitch they made
HP is not documented anywhere at any time as being 465
LP is not documented anywhere in the world at any time as being 465
465 was never used anywhere, IMO why would you, it is basically the same as 435, likely the most popular pitch in the western world at the time.
IMO they have been stamped in the US, not by Buffet
Mine
Played by a period clarinet expert.
Original buffet stamped barrel 67mm
As we know historically music was written for B clarinet
Plays at 435
Blah blah
Bizzarely the clarinet you describe would be far more rare and less likely than a B clarinet...... How strange... I want one of them😀,wait I've got one.
Joachim's razor would say....
Really look at what you are saying.......
Zero facts to support.....
Zero demonstrated research
Total lack of logic
Every fact says you are wrong...
As per your requirements to me provide a catalogue, document performance proof blah, blah, blah. You would fail your own test.
Interestingly Fischer's is clear about 435 and 455
Bettoney is the one that stamped your horn and is the one that appears to have stuffed up.
Of note having mentioned to you that the barrel you were claiming at the time was an adjustable buffet and I believed was not. It sounds like you have changed your opinion. There is a Bettoney barrel currently up on that site, your unmarked Bettoney barrel looks nothing like the Bettoney barrel on that site, time for another re-think🥺
As noted by you, many of these clarinets come without the original barrel. You point this out as a problem. I have an original barrel if you need some dimensions so you can sort out your clarinet as per your thoughts about non-original barrels feel free to let me know🤭
The multiverse has many facets....
Pay up
Post Edited (2025-04-20 13:15)
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-04-20 17:51
Regardless of whether "Crazyclari" (Glen Smith) has a very rare B natural clarinet or not, it is most likely that the OP has a HP Bb clarinet. Several times over the last 40 years I've encountered this, and in all but one case "HP" was stamped on the instrument somewhere. The tuning might not be good enough for professional playing but for the average student/amateur an HP Bb clarinet will play as a B clarinet.
Incidentally, I now have a student who routinely plays nearly a half tone flat (on his Tosca with BD5) and we've tried fixing his embouchure/tongue position/voicing etc etc. I think the next step is finding him a "B clarinet". He actually plays at about Grade 8 (ABRSM) level, how he's got to this level while basically being unable to play with any group or accompaniment is a mystery to me.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-04-21 02:30
Hi Donald, JD wants proof of a clarinet in B, he has been provided with overwhelming proof. He has clearly stated he will provide $50 to someone who provides that proof.
Personally, and to this issue JDs clarinet is irrelevant to the matter, he raised it not myself. I am addressing the arguments he has previously raised and faulted others about barrels😀
Let us focus on the reality there is a B clarnet and JD fulfilling his very public statement🤭
Time to pay up JD.
I know he won't, so ethically well past the time to move on....
Post Edited (2025-04-21 07:38)
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-04-21 18:48
"ethically well past the time to move on...." I don't know if the "ethics" of the situation are particularly relevant, but you seem to have a LOT more time for this than the rest of us.
It would be interesting to hear exactly who your "period clarinet expert" is (hint- it's "historic performance", "period performance" went out of fashion about 30 years ago).
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2025-04-22 03:59
I specifically asked for direct documentation of B natural clarinets in the early 20th century, so far nobody has provided that. If someone does I will gladly pay the $50 bounty but so far all evidence has been indirect and circumstantial and mostly pointing towards them not existing.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-04-22 06:42
Sorry JD you have been provided with:
Direct documention published by buffet which advises they only made clarinets in 435 and 455 pitch. I have a B clarinet that clearly complies with the buffet documented statement and it's requiements of 435 pitch. This documented evidence demonstrates the existence of a B clarinet in 435. The logic is clear, totally linear and has direct linkage. This documentation has been provided since some of the earliest emails. This approach is a cornerstone of the work I now do and what you have asked for.
I would note that I work all day long in factual evidence. You need to learn what factual evidence is. This is definitely my area now, if you want to go there..... Having just checked my definition to make sure I am correct, you won't like the results. Again a situation of you don't appear to know, what you don't know. I now work as an expert witness, post a clarinet career. I am happy to start copying and pasting definitions for you, to support my clear factual documented evidence to assist your understanding.
You need to pay up and be happy😀as you describe.
Cheers Glen
Of note I just received a copy of "A history of performing pitch" Likely the most extensive document on the subject at hand. From a quick browse no pitch higher than 455/6 can be found in the last 150 years+.
As many would know diapson norm was set at 435 in 1859. It became the major pitch across continental europe, but pitch rose above 435, esp in the UK.
The book notes that as French instruments were highly prized, this assisted in the implementation of 435 pitch.
Simply, as repeatedly noted any claims that a pitch higher than 455/6, e.g. HP 465 exists, are fantasy and totally baseless. This further confirms my stated facts.
BTW the people who did the name calling when asked for facts can feel free to apologize at any time for their rudeness and ignorance on the subject.
Hi Donald it takes me no time at all to identify basic facts as I have provided.
It is research that primary school child could likely complete. All part of being a well informed musician really. It's great we have helped you sort out the pitch on a lot of your clarinets😀 The best thing for your clarinet collection in a long while. It's great I'm so committed to learning and development😀
Post Edited (2025-04-22 12:17)
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2025-04-22 13:03
So, we now have two examples of Buffet clarinets that play in B natural at A=435, with a 67mm barrel. By my calculations this is equivalent to a clarinet in Bb at A=461 (not 466, which I think would be equivalent to a B natural in 440---correct me if I'm wrong)
jdbassplayer's one is stamped HP, so most likely was originally sold as a high pitch Bb clarinet.
crazyclari's one is not stamped either HP or LP, so may have been intended to be a low pitch B natural clarinet, but I have seen no evidence ruling out that it was intended as HP, like jdbassplayer's one.
I understand crazyclari's point that a clarinet built to A=461 is implausible because this is sharper than any high pitch standard that was used at the time. However, it seems at least possible that instruments were sometimes made to play higher than the nominal pitch standard. I have played an old B&H 1010 marked "LP", that played well above A=440, with a barrel and mouthpiece of the correct bore. I used to have a Noblet bass clarinet that played well above A=442 when warmed up. Some manufacturers have even deliberately produced instruments that play sharper than the nominal pitch, so that beginners can play in tune. At one point, Yamaha's student bass clarinet model was apparently built to play well above A=440, presumably because it would sound at around 440 when played by a beginner with a slack embouchure. I could imagine other possible reasons why instrument makers might have done this in the past. They could have built clarinets in ultra high pitch so that band players would have a chance of playing at standard high pitch in freezing weather outdoors. Do I have any evidence that Buffet built these instruments to play sharp for one of these reasons? No, and perhaps it's implausible to assume that they did. But then, on the other hand, nobody has any documentary evidence that Buffet intended these instruments as B natural clarinets either.
If I had made the bet, I would pay up if somebody found a clarinet with these tuning tendencies that was stamped LP.
Post Edited (2025-04-22 15:58)
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-04-22 13:07
"Crazyclar" wrote earlier... "Unfortunately your trolling type behaviour from your opening lines in previous emails and this has been of concern, offensive, uncalled for and repeated.". I have no recollection of writing ANY emails to him????
As for "It's great we have helped you sort out the pitch on a lot of your clarinets😀 The best thing for your clarinet collection in a long while. It's great I'm so committed to learning and development" I have no idea what he's talking about.
Please note- I have never entered in any argument about "pitch" other than to note that "HP" is close enough to half a step higher than A=440 that it makes an instrument play "more or less" a half step higher.
My HP Eb clarinet is functionally in E. An HP Bb is more or less in B
that's all I said.
dn
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-04-22 13:27
You have obviously repressed the memory of calling me a jerk, you seem to have forgotten that....
I lodged a complaint at the time with Charette.
I will get to the more important things I have to do grind the dead skin off my feet😀
I can send through a photo if you want me to verify😀
Post Edited (2025-04-22 14:11)
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-04-22 15:28
Oh, yes I called you a jerk up above in the thread. I'm sorry you need me to explain this to you, but that's NOT the same as emailing you. That would be if I had sent a personal message to you at your private email address. See how I'm writing here in this thread? That's NOT an email. I hope this is now clear to you.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2025-04-22 16:39
Crazyclari wrote:
>Direct documention published by buffet which advises they only made clarinets >in 435 and 455 pitch.
You have to remember that Diapason Normal is not measured at room temperature. From the document you provided me “History of 440 Pitch” by Eg Gaida:
“Wind instruments tuned to A-435 at 59 degrees Fahrenheit will raise in pitch to A-440 at 72 degrees Fahrenheit."
This makes sense as if you’ve ever tried a LP Buffet from this era they are almost always tuned to modern pitch. I even have freshly overhauled 1890s Buffet sitting next to me now. It plays at 440, not 435. If they were actually tuned to A=435Hz it would be impossible to play these older horns with modern instruments. So following that logic, any HP clarinet from the era will be tuned to ~460Hz by modern standards.
>Simply, as repeatedly noted any claims that a pitch higher than 455/6, e.g. HP >465 exists, are fantasy and totally baseless. This further confirms my stated >facts.
The document you provided me disagrees:
“(He notes that in 1880 in America, the pitch was as high as A-454 to A-460!”
So those factors would easily explain why these HP clarinets are so sharp. A simple and rational explanation that doesn’t require an obscure size of clarinet.
So we DO have evidence of pitches higher than A=456. We do NOT have any direct documentation of B natural clarinets made in this era. Again if there really are 12+ B natural clarinets out there then there should be something. I have documentation for a Buffet Boehm system C bass clarinet and we only know of 4 of those. That’s why I’ve specifically asked for direct documentation of a B natural clarinet to claim the bounty. So far no one has provided that.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-04-22 17:18
First two lines of this BBoard's rules:
The rules are set up to respect people, companies, and property.
No ad hominem attacks (discuss the question/answer, not the person. Sometimes it's hard to separate the two - discretion is the better part of valor)
jdbassplayer is trying his best to keep the discussion focused on the original question. Maybe the personal back-and-forth criticism among (between?) other posters could either get back to the question itself or just stop.
(BTW - the OP is now 22 years older and has probably moved on from this question, and maybe the BBoard itself, long ago).
Thanks!
Karl (co-moderator)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-04-23 02:33
My understanding of this debate is that
JD believes that at the time of this clarinet 1904, that:
• Buffet clarinets were made at 465 pitch
I believe that at the time of this clarinet 1904, that;
• Buffet made clarinets at 435 pitch and 455 pitch
• The clarinet that I have is a B clarinet in 435 pitch
• The maximum pitch at the time was 455/6
• I will note there may have been some random clarinets out there. They are not relevant to this discussion on a buffet clarinet.
JD has not provided a single documented factual argument for the existence of 465.
The available facts for 465 being non-existent are so overwhelming that this should now be a moot point.
In response to JDs comments below;
Simply Diaopson norm was French pitch 435. It was not and had nothing to do with 455, which was high pitch. Please check your logic. Your logic here is fundamentally flawed and has zero factual basis
The diapason norm initially did not provide a specification for the temperature. This was later corrected. This resulted in some tuning devices e.g. tuning forks being at 440. Reference a history of performing pitch and just about every other document on the subject.
During the later 1800 there was a general move towards 435 in continental Europe, which had many countries at 440. In some countries the pitch kept rising e.g. the UK. Reference a history of performing pitch and just about every other document on the subject.
JD yes this again confirms what I have said the pitch did not rise to the 465 you claim, your logic is flawed. For a clarinet made in 1904.
JD noted
>Direct documention published by buffet which advises they only made clarinets >in 435 and 455 pitch.
You have to remember that Diapason Normal is not measured at room temperature. From the document you provided me “History of 440 Pitch” by Eg Gaida:
“Wind instruments tuned to A-435 at 59 degrees Fahrenheit will raise in pitch to A-440 at 72 degrees Fahrenheit."
This makes sense as if you’ve ever tried a LP Buffet from this era they are almost always tuned to modern pitch. I even have freshly overhauled 1890s Buffet sitting next to me now. It plays at 440, not 435. If they were actually tuned to A=435Hz it would be impossible to play these older horns with modern instruments. So following that logic, any HP clarinet from the era will be tuned to ~460Hz by modern standards.
>Simply, as repeatedly noted any claims that a pitch higher than 455/6, e.g. HP >465 exists, are fantasy and totally baseless. This further confirms my stated >facts.
JD requires documented proof of the existence of a B clarinet
• I would note that nowhere does he stipulate that the catalog, invoice or a piece of sheet music has to specifically contain the words B clarinet.
I would note that I have more than fulfilled his requirements for a documented piece of evidence. I have provided a 1912 Buffet catalogue that stipulates that Buffet only made clarinets in the pitches of 435 and 455. Of note is that this is a pre-war catalogue.
Post the first world war the treaty of Versaille ratified 440. From then on there was a general shift to 440, with some organisation in the US ratifying 440 in 1926 onwards. Generally prior to 1900 there was more a mixed bag of pitches. Reference a history of performing pitch and just about every other document on the subject.
In line with the requirements and definition provided by Cornell University I have provided JD with documented factual evidence.
Direct documentation published by buffet which advises they only made clarinets in 435 and 455 pitch. I have a B clarinet that clearly complies with the buffet documented statement and it's requirements of 435 pitch. This documented evidence demonstrates the existence of a B clarinet in 435. The logic is clear, totally linear and has direct linkage. This documentation has been provided since some of the earliest emails. This approach is a cornerstone of the work I now do and what you have asked for.
As noted previously I have copied and pasted definitions for you, to support my clear factual documented evidence to assist your understanding. JD is not complying with his requirement regarding documented evidence.
Please see below for an example of the legal requirements for a documented piece of evidence from Cornell university. documentary evidence | Wex | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute Accessed 23 April 025, 7.41am
“Documentary evidence is a broad term in evidence law that can include almost any document introduced in trial that is on paper. It consists of any written or recorded material that is relevant to the case at hand, such as contracts, emails, letters, medical records, financial documents, photographs, videos, and more. Lawyers use documentary evidence to support their legal arguments and provide proof of facts”
The old Wikipedia, accessed 23 April 2025, 8.14am
Documentary evidence is any evidence that is, or can be, introduced at a trial in the form of documents, as distinguished from oral testimony. Documentary evidence is most widely understood to refer to writings on paper (such as an invoice, a contract or a will), but the term can also apply to any media by which information can be preserved, such as photographs; a medium that needs a mechanical device to be viewed, such as a tape recording or film; and a printed form of digital evidence, such as emails or spreadsheets.
JD provides the following statement on his website.
“In response to the many claims of people who believe that they have a B natural clarinet, I have put out a $50 bounty for the first person that can provide me with an original piece of documentation that proves that modern B natural clarinets we made in the late Romantic/early Modern era (~1875 to about 1950). This can be in the form of a catalog, invoice or a piece of sheet music from the era. It must be direct evidence, not circumstantial evidence or a non-primary source. If you have evidence that fits these requirements, please reach out to me here.”
JD notes
The document you provided me disagrees:
“(He notes that in 1880 in America, the pitch was as high as A-454 to A-460!”
So those factors would easily explain why these HP clarinets are so sharp. A simple and rational explanation that doesn’t require an obscure size of clarinet.
So we DO have evidence of pitches higher than A=456. We do NOT have any direct documentation of B natural clarinets made in this era. Again if there really are 12+ B natural clarinets out there then there should be something. I have documentation for a Buffet Boehm system C bass clarinet and we only know of 4 of those. That’s why I’ve specifically asked for direct documentation of a B natural clarinet to claim the bounty. So far no one has provided that
Time to pay up JD
Post Edited (2025-04-23 02:38)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-04-23 03:26
Hi JD,
here is an example of what was happening at the time. Less than my ideal reference but it makes the point. You need to consider the problems the following creates for your arguments regarding 1880 clarinets and look at the facts I have provided you with. With your 1880 clarinet you have not provided any documented evidence of the pitch that Buffet was making to at the time.
Https://www.woodwindforum.com/forum/index.php?threads/a440-vs-a435.22632/
Pitch standards always have a tendency to rise because individual players err on the sharp side to add "presence" to their sound.
In the early 1800s in Europe, pitch varied from place to place, and concert A often reached 450 cps in some areas. When opera singers had trouble hitting their highest notes, France made A=435 the legal standard in 1859. The result? Nothing much changed. Most existing instruments were pitched higher than A=435, and manufacturers were not eager to produce instruments that sounded flatter than horns currently in use.
My Adolphe Sax baritone saxophone made in 1861, two years AFTER the new law, plays best at around A=440-445 depending on the mouthpiece, and it was made for the French military.
Years later, the French pitch had gradually fallen, and my 1876 Adolphe Sax alto plays well at A=435. But the tendency to play a little above the prevailing pitch is relentless. By manipulating the temperature at which pitch is determined, or by other schemes, the "A=435" instruments built in the early 20th century were near or at A=440 before the standard pitch was set at A=440 officially.
Many "A=435" instruments play very well alongside "A=440" instruments. Today, it really doesn't matter what pitch is used to tune an orchestra. The actual playing pitch usually rises. We often blame the strings, but the entire ensemble will find its own level. The fact that volume levels are also rising makes the situation even worse, because wind instruments except flute go flat as volume increases. Good players often tune a little high so that they can sound good at the climax of a piece.
My B clarinet is solidly at 435
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2025-04-23 03:31
>JD provides the following statement on his website.
“In response to the many claims of people who believe that they have a B natural clarinet, I have put out a $50 bounty for the first person that can provide me with an original piece of documentation that proves that modern B natural clarinets we made in the late Romantic/early Modern era (~1875 to about 1950). This can be in the form of a catalog, invoice or a piece of sheet music from the era. It must be direct evidence, not circumstantial evidence or a non-primary source. If you have evidence that fits these requirements, please reach out to me here.”
Like I have clearly stated, it must be DIRECT evidence. From the definition of direct evidence:
"Direct evidence
In law, a body of facts that directly supports the truth of an assertion without intervening inference"
Making the assumption that your clarinet must be a B natural clarinet because a catalog says Buffet only made clarinets in A=435 and A=455 is not direct evidence, it is circumstantial evidence as you need to infer that the maker intended to make these clarinets as B natural clarinets. And once again it is easily disprove given the amount of A=440Hz Buffets from the early 20th century there are out there and by my HP Buffet which clearly plays higher than A=455 Hz.
>I would note that nowhere does he stipulate that the catalog, invoice or a piece >of sheet music has to specifically contain the words B clarinet.
I don't know how it could be direct evidence otherwise. That's why I specifically asked for direct evidence, because that would settle the debate once and for all.
>My understanding of this debate is that JD believes that at the time of this >clarinet 1904, that:
>• Buffet clarinets were made at 465 pitch
That may be where the confusion is coming from. After acquiring my HP clarinet I don't think HP was that high. I think these clarinets were likely built to around A=460Hz (only ~1hz off from a B natural clarinet at A=435) and that the alleged B natural clarinets are just using shorter barrels which I demonstrated does work with my HP clarinet. The source you provided does say that pitch in America could go that high so that is a perfectly logical explanation.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-04-23 06:16
Clearly JD
You do not appear to be applying what you wrote.
You have misrepresented what you wrote
Please see below for a copy and paste from your website.
Please provide factual information, that represents what you wrote.
-I have provided you with direct evidence
-I have provided your documented evidence
Please provide some factual basis for your claim that I have not provided documented information. I have provided you with a reference from Cornell University my documentation complies with the requirements set out in that document. It would appear that you believe your opinion is superior to Cornell Universities. Currently your claim has no factual basis.
“In response to the many claims of people who believe that they have a B natural clarinet, I have put out a $50 bounty for the first person that can provide me with an original piece of documentation that proves that modern B natural clarinets we made in the late Romantic/early Modern era (~1875 to about 1950). This can be in the form of a catalog, invoice or a piece of sheet music from the era. It must be direct evidence, not circumstantial evidence or a non-primary source. If you have evidence that fits these requirements, please reach out to me here.”
Again you raise the short barrel issue. As repeatedly stated by me the barrel on the clarinet is 67mm, stamped wth the same stamping as the body of the clarinet.
As noted by me too many times to count your point here is irrelevant. Currently you have no factual basis that my clarinet has a short barrel.
I have previously completed three auditing course two inspections course all of which required considerable understanding and application of the points of proof, which is likely a term you have not heard before.
I have worked as an expert witness for about 17 years which has required the application of a code of conduct to be applied to the factual evidence I apply. It also requires me to provide reports and documents to the court, barristers, magistrates and solicitors all of whom diligently look for errors.
Time to pay up JD
Post Edited (2025-04-28 10:11)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2025-04-23 06:24
I don't have a horse in this race...are there B clarinets? Sure! Definitely not! I'm fine either way. Can a clarinet be made to play in B? Evidently so.
There is no natural law prohibitting such a thing.
While I've enjoyed some of this thread and the information it contained...I'm not convinced of a maker's intent to create a B clarinet, (maybe they were just poorly made Bb's?) though I do not in any way doubt man-kind's ability to create one - or to quabble over its alleged existence.
Does/did EricZang have a B clarinet?
EricZang: "...I just tested it again and in fact it sounds in between a concert B and Bb. It must be a 'high pitch' model..."
Warmest Regards,
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2025-04-23 10:59
crazyclari, a mouthpiece definitely has an effect on pitch. I've worked with a historical clarinet maker who can change the entire pitch of an instrument by up to 10 Hz just by the dimensions of the mouthpiece and barrel.
It doesn't make sense to test a historical B clarinet with a modern B-flat mouthpiece. Surely your expert in period instruments would know that too.
As has already been mentioned, temperature affects pitch, and Diapason Normal was indeed set at A=435 for 15 degrees Celsius. That's why New Philharmonic Pitch in London was adapted to A=439: this was the equivalent pitch for 20 Celsius. You can't just choose to overlook that.
Given that you have tested the instrument with the wrong mouthpiece, presumably at the wrong temperature, I don't see how you can claim with any certainty that "My B clarinet is solidly at 435"?
Post Edited (2025-04-23 11:03)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-04-23 11:03
Hi fuzzy turn your tuner to 435 or 455 and see what you come up with😀
Depending on the age, location of manufacture who knows, twist that tuner knob till the horn centres.
This one is pretty clear 435 in the day when 435 was in. Tested by an expert. Full boehm with a low Eb within about 2mm of a similar bore clarinet after considering the 435 length.
It's come about from trying to figure out what it was, not I am going to ...
Potentially a great topic as a time great change development etc but unfortunately....
Post Edited (2025-04-23 14:12)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-04-23 14:22
I agree a mouthpiece will affect the pitch. How much who knows. Potentially this should be a great topic for discussion which is the only reason I'm have peristed.
Please tell me your opinion on what 10 hertz will translate to in relation to pitch.
I would note the pitch and temperature was not overlooked
As I have said all along I am neutral on whether it is 435 or not. The problem from my end has been poorly structured/ informed arguments. I am still dealing with a person talking about short barrels xxxx messages later..
Give me some good info and I am happy to go with it😀test it and see what happens. As mentioned I have a more period mouthpiece that I will get refaced.
I am sure there are a number a well-structured discussion would appeal to😀
Post Edited (2025-04-28 09:42)
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2025-04-23 14:48
crazyclari wrote:
>
> Please tell me your opinion on what 10 hertz will translate to
> in relation to pitch.
> I would note the pitch and temperature was not overlooked
>
Assume a clarinet that plays as a B natural clarinet at 435 Hz in a temperature of 20 degrees. This is equivalent to a Bb clarinet playing at 461 Hz at the same temperature.
Applying the relevant formula from Stephen Fox's website:
http://www.sfoxclarinets.com/Mathematics.html#temppitch
Assuming I understand correctly, I make it that a clarinet playing at 461 Hz at 20 degrees centigrade would play at 457 Hz at 15 degrees
sqrt(((273+15)/(273+20))) * 461 = 457. [edited to correct formula]
In other words, an instrument that plays as a B natural clarinet at 435 Hz at 20
degrees would play as a Bb clarinet at 457 Hz at 15 degrees
Edit: Note, as I understand it, the formula refers to the temperature of the air inside the clarinet, not the ambient temperature. Probably best to test it at both ambient temperatures
Post Edited (2025-04-23 15:27)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-04-23 21:13
I've only come to this discussion recently and was certainly not part of it in 2003, when the original question was asked.
But, putting aside the issue of what constitutes "proof" - this is not a legal BBoard nor a court of law, and "winning" arguments is only an occasional side show here, not our main purpose - as I read all the arguments back and forth, I'm not sure I understand why it matters what you call the instrument. My A clarinet doesn't say "A" on it. Nor do my Bb clarinets self identify anywhere on the body of the instrument as "Bb". Can I call my A clarinet a "clarinet in Bbb?" How about calling my Bb clarinet a "clarinet in A#?" If the natural scale (by convention a written C scale) produces a scale that corresponds to an A scale on a piano, the clarinet is understood to be an A clarinet.
If a clarinet's C scale produces a scale matching a B scale of a non-transposing instrument, I suppose it could be called a B clarinet (or in Germany an H clarinet) regardless of the manufacturer's intent. Or call it a very sharp Bb clarinet, one that is in any case useless in modern ensemble settings unless the player wants to do the appropriate transposition. All the changing pitch standards and mathematics put aside, the instrument plays naturally - comfortably - at some pitch. Naming the pitch involves a comparison to something else - the name isn't in any case intrinsic to the instrument itself.
Karl
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2025-04-24 03:15
To players it doesn’t really matter. For collectors, music historians and organologists it matters a great deal. Many of the alleged B natural clarinets have sold for over $1000 despite no documentation. Meanwhile my HP Buffet cost $100, the tunable barrel alone is probably worth about that. I myself am quite fascinated with the weird sizes of clarinet so I am very interested in knowing if B natural clarinets were actually made by Buffet in the 20th century.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-04-24 12:22
I just found an old wooden martin France mouthpiece, that I had forgotten about. Have yet to set the room temperature, which I will do tomorrow. Currently spot on 435. Standard flatter low E an F. Very slight right hand sharpness, zero concern level. Standard slightly flat throat e and f. They pull up well intuitively, so better than some modern horns. Standard slightly sharp throat G# and A. Middle register good. Top slightly flat top D#, hairline flat top F.
All well within what I would find on many modern clarinets.
Previous concerns with modern mouthpiece very sharp throat notes and much flatter top register, esp top F and D#.
Generally pitch was "similar"
Using a korg TM 60 tuner set to 435
I will set up the Aircon and thermometer tomorrow, current perception is......
Hi thanks for the formula I will have a good look tomorrow😀
Post Edited (2025-04-25 04:55)
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2025-04-24 17:08
One small point - there is no music written for a B clarinet. Kind of makes all this totally irrelevant!
Quite seriously - this is one of the longest threads on this board. It might just be possible that there are more important things to discuss!
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-04-24 19:54
symphony1010 wrote:
> One small point - there is no music written for a B clarinet.
> Kind of makes all this totally irrelevant!
> Quite seriously - this is one of the longest threads on this
> board. It might just be possible that there are more important
> things to discuss!
Apparently, not at the moment. It should be long - it has had 22 years to grow.
I'm sure something new will come up.
Karl
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2025-04-24 20:24
> Apparently, not at the moment. It should be long - it has had
> 22 years to grow.
>
> I'm sure something new will come up.
>
> Karl
I won't hold my breath!
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2025-04-25 00:18
symphony1010: Actually there is music for B clarinet. When I played Idomeneo with Nikolaus Harnoncourt he brought two B clarinets with him, which he had commissioned to be built for his own period instrument orchestra. He felt that the sound was much lighter and more appropriate to the arias than the common practice of transposing these arias onto A clarinets. As has already been mentioned, Mozart also used B clarinets in Cosi fan Tutte.
Post Edited (2025-04-25 10:15)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2025-04-25 00:25
crazyclari wrote: "Please tell me your opinion on what 10 hertz will translate to in relation to pitch."
I'm not really sure what you are asking, as pitch is measured in Hertz...
Regarding mouthpieces, the further back in history you go, the less standardised they were. I'm often asked by newcomers to historical clarinets whether they can try my mouthpiece. I then have to ask them which one, because every historical clarinet that I have has a different mouthpiece which wouldn't fit (and certainly wouldn't tune) with instruments made by other makers.
So I'm not sure if "a more period mouthpiece" will actually be the right mouthpiece for your B clarinet.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-04-25 04:18
Just under 21 degrees on my thermometer and 435 pitch.
It is a B clarinet in 435
Yes, I agree a long drawn out conversation that morphed from the original thread that I started as I could not find my original thread. You could argue for and against but there a still people commenting with relevant info, thanks for that😀
Maybe it is 22 years to get it right🤭
As always happy to hear any relevant information needed to identify any gaps in the information necessary to... Get paid
Re the hertz thanks for the follow up, I asked the question badly.
Good to know there are modern B clarinets out there😀 I don't want to have only one....
Post Edited (2025-04-25 04:57)
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2025-04-25 18:01
symphony1010: Actually there is music for B clarinet. When I played Idomeneo with Nikolaus Harnoncourt he brought two B clarinets with him, which he had commissioned to be built for his own period instrument orchestra. He felt that the sound was much lighter and more appropriate to the arias than the common practice of transposing these arias onto A clarinets. As has already been mentioned, Mozart also used B clarinets in Cosi fan Tutte.
Useful to know! Thanks. I've played Idomeneo but saw no reference to B clarinets but I'm sure you're correct. The parts we played were very basic, obviously earlier than any inspiration from Stadler.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-04-26 04:04
Thanks for that 10/10.
I am looking for a 10/10 Barrel. If you know of one maybe we can take the matter off line.
I have a 3/4 Boehm 10/10 which is pretty funky as B&H tended to not make horns with extra keys.
For me this period is very interesting give or take we have the invention of Boehm, moves towards standardisation (not very successful) of pitch. To me that period ended with the first world war and the very general move towards 440, again a slow process.
It seems to be a time that clarinet history and what happened is a bit light on.
If anyone has a good book/research would be great.
Much of this and the previous thread has been about demonstrating French pitch existed and what this was all about, it seemed to be unknown.... With the concept that 435 was ultra high pitch.....
I should note that the concept of ultra high pitch is totally unsupported by the factual evidence.
Post Edited (2025-04-27 13:22)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-04-28 10:15
Hi Fuzzy,
I can say whether Eric has a B clarinet.
It would have been great if people had asked him some more informed and relevant questions.
From the information I saw there it would seem unlikely to me.
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2025-04-28 11:59
Author: crazyclari
Date: 2025-04-26 04:04
Thanks for that 10/10.
I am looking for a 10/10 Barrel. If you know of one maybe we can take the matter off line.
I have a 3/4 Boehm 10/10 which is pretty funky as B&H tended to not make horns with extra keys.
I'm afraid I don't know of any definitive sources for 1010 barrels. It's possible that main UK shops like Howarths, Dawkes and perhaps Packers of Taunton have some.
The other contact might be Peter Eaton who bought up much of the Boosey tooling when he started his own clarinet production. I would think Chris, here on the forum, would also know sources.
Although I started my career on 1010s, like most British clarinettists, I made the change to Buffet R13 Prestige instruments at the suggestion of Boosey themselves in the 1980s. Listening to recordings of my playing before and after, my sound stayed pretty much the same so I had to re-evaluate the difference the 1010s were making when the much improved intonation on the R13 Prestige was presented to me.
Yesterday I performed the Mozart Quintet in Dorset in a lovely acoustic and, in essence, I still play with the 'English' style that 1010s facilitated.
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-04-28 17:22
I've twice played Mozart opera parts with small (and relatively unimportant) sections for B natural clarinet, so it seems quite likely that such instruments were made (though, many many years ago Eric Hoeperich suggested that this scoring was possibly Mozart "messing" with the Stadler brothers - and pointed out other clarinet scoring that was needlessly awkward that could have been him teasing his friends). This was just mentioned in passing and with no evidence other than a vague "suspicion".
Despite these parts remaining in some editions, they have been played on Bb or A clarinet for most of the last 230 years and no other composers that I'm aware of wrote for B natural clarinet (it's possible that someone DID, but the music has certainly not remained in the repertoire).
I'd be interested for Crazyclari to identify the "world class" historical player who tried his clarinet- none of the world class players I've known would imagine there was any point to be made from trying a century old clarinet with a modern mouthpiece.
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