 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Menendez
Date: 2008-01-28 23:29
Hi,
I have a set of Wurlitzer Reform Boehm clarinets, model 185 Soloist since 6 months ago.
I play them with a Willscher Wenzel Fuchs 3000 moutpiece.
Sincerely, i have not appreciated a sustancial difference in sound (timbre) comparing with my Buffet RC clarinetes what I play with a Nagamatsu Wiena Model 75-33 mouthpiece. Maybe still is soon to approach the sound qualities of my Wurlitzer.
But my principal preoccupation is about intonation... too sharp in left hand notes with 12th key (G, G#, A, #A, B and C). It is impossible to be good playing with another player who plays a Buffet or Selmer clarinet. I have tried to modify intonation applying nail polish in some holes, but still i have many problems. And i study with a tuner and i take care with these notes. Playing long notes I am about +5 or between +5 and + 10, but playing intervals, technical studies or any score and trying to do music, i feel these notes very sharp and it is very difficult to take control with them.
Anybody has these clarinets? What can I do?
Thanks a lot.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-01-29 02:55
Menendez wrote- "I have a set of Wurlitzer Reform Boehm clarinets, model 185 Soloist since 6 months ago.
I play them with a Willscher Wenzel Fuchs 3000 moutpiece."
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Is this "Willscher" the AW brand of mouthpieces? Is this Wenzel Fuchs 3000 model designed for Reformed Boehm or Oehler system??
I am wondering why you do not use the original mouthpiece from Wurlitzer.
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2008-01-29 03:17
I don't know the typical tendencies of Wurlitzer Reform-Boehm instruments at all, but it sounds like skygardner may be onto something. I'd experiment with some different mouthpieces. You may find something else that yields the desired results. It may benefit you to get in touch with some fine Dutch clarinetists and see what their thoughts are. I recall these instruments are "standard" equipment for them.
Christopher Nichols, D.M.A.
Assistant Professor of Clarinet
University of Delaware
Post Edited (2008-05-26 10:00)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-01-29 03:30
"What can I do?" I'll swap my Selmer Series 9 full Boehm set for them!
Seriously though, what length barrel are you using (I assume it uses either a 54 or 56mm)? Maybe a slightly longer barrel might help the left hand notes (57 or 58mm), or use a 1.5mm or 2mm tuning ring.
I made a 59mm barrel for my Yamaha Oehler which has helped with the tuning in the left hand notes, the original barrels are 54 and 56mm.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: RodRubber
Date: 2008-01-29 03:33
A lot of times, buffet players have trouble switching to any other instrument. The intonation of an RC would be different than a reform boehm wurlizter. The mouthpiece is a major concern also. The german is different than the reform boehm bore. Try a wurlitzer mouthpiece and see if your results are better.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-01-29 06:57
As I understand, Wurlitzer makes there instruments to work specifically with their mouthpiece. As I have seen, there is much more individuality in the different German makers and you can't mix and match different brands as much. If you want a different mouthpiece than the one that came with it, you would probably be best to contact Wurlitzer directly as they are prbably the best people that can make something to match their instruments.
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Author: Menendez
Date: 2008-01-29 10:35
Skygardener wrote:
>Is this "Willscher" the AW brand of mouthpieces? Is this Wenzel Fuchs >3000 model designed for Reformed Boehm or Oehler system??
>I am wondering why you do not use the original mouthpiece from >Wurlitzer.
Yes, this mouthpiece is from AW. And it is designed to play with Reform Boehm.
I not play with Wurlitzer mouthpieces because Willscher sounds better and the air flows better too.
Anyway, I checked that intonation is the same with Wurlitzer mouthpieces: too high (and very difficult to control, maybe impossible playing intervals) in the left hand notes in the upper register (G, G#, A, A#, B and C).
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Author: kenb
Date: 2008-01-29 12:16
hi menendez,
I also play on a set of Wurlitzer RB model 185 and have experienced the same difficulties (when changing from Buffet Festivals).
As posted above, make sure you have mouthpiece compatible with the Wurlitzer Reform Boehm - the mouthpieces for the Wurlitzer Oehler system have different chambers.
I don't know about the Willscher/Fuchs model, but I have settled on the Viotto N1+2, which works very well with Vandoren White Master reeds, 2.5-3 strength. Many Dutch RB players use this combo.
Give yourself time to adapt. The RB requires a much different approach - I had 20 years' habits to change!
Wurlitzer RB does play sharper in the upper clarion and altissimo than the Buffet; I fiddled around with nail polish, wax etc in tone holes, but I've removed most of it - you learn to adjust your voicing to compensate (I mean adjusting the shape of your oral cavity)
On my instruments:
The G is OK
G# clarion tends to be high (more so on the A clarinet)
A is OK
The RH trill Bb is high, but the lh sliver is OK and the fork fingering is an absolute dream pitch and tone-wise.
The upper clarion B and C are high.
(The lower 12ths of the above notes are OK except for the E on Bb clarinet which is a little flat).
Make sure the top joint pads are sealing well - don't forget to check the little Bb vent pad under the register key camel's hump.
K
Post Edited (2008-01-29 12:40)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-01-29 13:17
Have you contacted Wurlitzer about this problem? It may be the way you are playing and they can give you some advice on "how" to play the RB system. It really is a different animal than the French- angle, air, articulation, and pitch.
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Author: Menendez
Date: 2008-01-29 15:56
Thanks a lot for all you!
Maybe it is still soon for me to control de clarinet. One time I am familiarized with the instrument maybe i can do the necessary changes in holes or keys with a good luthier.
I will post two attachments for you hear the intonation differences between my Buffet RC and Wurlitzer clarinets.
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Author: Morrie Backun
Date: 2008-01-29 17:02
Hello,
I have done work on a number of these instruments. In several cases extensive tuning work including tone hole size, height, undercut angle and the bore itself has been modified to meet the players intonation requirements. (even after significant experimenting with mouthpieces and barrels)
Feel free to contact me off line if you would like to discuss this in greater detail.
Regards,
Morrie
Morrie Backun
Backun Musical Services
604-205-5770
morrie@backunmusical.com
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-01-29 17:45
Menendez wrote:
>> But my principal preoccupation is about intonation... too sharp in left hand notes with 12th key (G, G#, A, #A, B and C).>>
It's my understanding that this is a common tendency with these instruments, and something you learn to live with.
What is sometimes done is to cut the link between the RH and LH joints, so that you can flatten some of those notes by putting down RH fingers just as you can on early instruments. (I have even heard of a modification that allows you to switch between linked and unlinked modes of operation.)
Anyhow, you are not alone.
Tony
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-01-29 17:47
I had the same experience with Wurlitzer RB instruments. I agree with Ken that one has to learn to "voice" the tones differently. I know some players that use them professionally and they play more "loose" and "open" for those high notes than one would on a Buffet.
I actually did contact Wurlitzer about this problem when i was trying the instruments out. Their solution? They sent me a longer barrel, which of course didn't solve the problem.
At the moment I'm fooling around with some German system Wurlitzers. Interestingly they don't have these same tendencies.
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Author: Menendez
Date: 2008-01-31 13:11
Liquorice wrote:
> I had the same experience with Wurlitzer RB instruments. I
> agree with Ken that one has to learn to "voice" the tones
> differently. I know some players that use them professionally
> and they play more "loose" and "open" for those high notes than
> one would on a Buffet.
>
> I actually did contact Wurlitzer about this problem when i was
> trying the instruments out. Their solution? They sent me a
> longer barrel, which of course didn't solve the problem.
>
> At the moment I'm fooling around with some German system
> Wurlitzers. Interestingly they don't have these same
> tendencies.
A longer barrel is not a solution, because it affects all tube. Maybe left hand notes in upper register can be good tune, but not the rest.
In German System clarinets there are not these problems, i think because the different d¡situation of tone holes in the tube. I have a Yamaha Oehler System 22 keys, and it only has the typicall intonation problems in some notes, like all clarinets have.
Post Edited (2008-01-31 13:48)
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Author: Menendez
Date: 2008-01-31 13:26
>Hello,
>
>I have done work on a number of these instruments. In several cases >extensive tuning work including tone hole size, height, undercut angle >and the bore itself has been modified to meet the players intonation >requirements. (even after significant experimenting with mouthpieces and >barrels)
>
>Feel free to contact me off line if you would like to discuss this in greater >detail.
>
>Regards,
>
>Morrie
>
>Morrie Backun
>Backun Musical Services
>604-205-5770
>morrie@backunmusical.com
Thank you a lot for offering.
The problem is I am from Spain, too far from Canada. Anyway, i will contact you by e-mail, maybe you can advise me in several aspects.
Reading what told several people, I suspect that i must to adapt to the Wurlitzers first, and it will take me at least one year. After that I can start to do some modifications with a repairman.
I found that with the Wurlitzer mouthpiece W4 and a Vandoren reed (I suppose White Master) that it comes with clarinets, the intonation is better in left hand upper register... but it is some flat in several notes in chalumeau register. The worst is sound, too much clear and bright. without consistence.
We will follow working with these wonderful instruments... or maybe nightmare instruments :O
Thanks for all, and sorry my bad english.
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Author: kenb
Date: 2008-01-31 18:45
As I mentioned in my previous post, the Viotto N1+2 for RB is worth trying.
You might find it less bright in sound and, with 2.5/3.0 White Masters, a flexible set-up for those "voicing" issues.
Bas De Jong is the European agent for Viotto mps (I think he's one of the sponsors of this BB).
..........................................................................................................
"We will follow working with these wonderful instruments... or maybe nightmare instruments :O"
This made me laugh!
Good luck,
K
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Author: donald
Date: 2008-02-01 17:52
i own a pair of H Wurlitzer Reform Boehm clarinets made in the 1970s and previously played by a principal player in Europe and NZ. In the 1980s they were given a complete overhaul by Wurlitzer and have been little used since then.
- while some intonation "issues" appear to be caused by the player "voicing" clearly others are not. On the A clarinet experimenting with different mouthpieces/reeds has still not resulted in intonation better than my R13 (and with similar flaws i might add).
- despite the "French=bright German=dark" cliche i find that with the Wurlitzer clarinet i don't need to work as much to add any brightness/ring to the sound. It feels as if the shape of the sound is dictated by the instrument (well, of course it isn't, but it just feels that way more so than on Buffet). Remembering this, and really resisting the impulse to adjust every note (it's so smooth you don't need to!) helps the intonation.
- Those plastic Wurlitzer mouthpieces? i wonder if any professional players in Germany use them, or if they cast them aside as Buffet players do the plastic mouthpieces that come with the R13. I'd bet that no one really uses them... (but am prepared to be proven wrong)
So, my original intention was not to use these in orchestra but for odd little chamber music projects (like the Mozart Quintet performance i have in March). However at the moment i have enough trouble keeping "in shape"/reeds etc on my Buffet, my E flat clarinet and Tenor and Alto saxophones (that i have to play in the orchestra every so often)... plus long term projects using period instruments. It all takes too much time- so sadly my Wurlitzer clarinets are neglected.
One thing i do find (that supports the "it's the player not the instrument" line of reasoning) is that if i have a practise session using Wurlitzer the sound sticks in my head, and when i switch back to Buffet i tend to sound "more Wurlitzer" (a very un-scientific observation that may just be my imagination).
i hope that this was somehow helpful, good luck!
donald nicholls
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Author: Tom Henson
Date: 2008-02-28 17:09
Hello Menedez,
I also have a set of the Wurlitzer 185 model RB clarinets and have extensive knowledge about these instruments. I have had my Bb now for 3 years and my A for 2 years.
It is not a new thing that these clarinets have their own specific tuning problems which are well known to those of us that play on them.
I went through all of the same problems as you did coming from a Buffet R13. This is a very complex issue and let me say that the solution to this issue involves several things.
1). Wurlitzer plastic mouthpieces can be great and yes, some professional in Germany do use them quite successfully. Karl Leister is one. They can be quite good indeed if you pick one that works well for you. Rubber mouthpieces will have a darker, softer, warmer sound (whatever you call it) because the material is not as hard, so many people do prefer to play on them instead of the stock Wurlitzer mouthpieces. I myself play on a Viotto N1+2 and love it.
2). You must relearn your embouchure and shape of your mouth. You will tend to play very sharp in the left hand clarion until you start to open your vocal tract up and relax your throat more. Once you find a good match for the mouthpiece and reed, opening up and relaxing your throat will drop the sharpness of these left hand clarion notes at least 10 cents. You can also use the fingers on the right hand to cover and bring them down as well.
3). Try different mouthpieces to see which one works best for you. However, I can tell you that you will probably change mouthpieces again once you start to understand how to change your embouchure and vocal tract. I did. Little by little, I have gone from a more open mouthpiece down to a more close one, more similar to what is used in Germany. Many people also swear by the Viotto N1 which has a tip opening on 1.00mm. That would be considered closed by French standards.
4). Find the right brand of German reed that works best for you and your mouthpiece. I tried just about every German reed I could find and settled on several that worked very well for me. Here are some brands to look at:
Sinus
Foglietta
White Master
BK Klassic
Peter Leuthner
AW (Willscher)
The reed that you pick will be the one that best matches the facing of the mouthpiece.
5). Barrels. Each Wurlitzer model 185 clarinet comes with 2 barrels. I asked for 3 different sizes to give me more options and this helped me find a compromise where the left hand chalumeau was not too flat and the clarion was not too sharp.
6). Forget using the French barrels if you ordered them and just use the ones made for the German RB mouthpieces.
7). Do NOT make any alterations on your clarinet unless you want to void your warranty with Wurlitzer. They will refuse to work on it if it has been altered in any way. If this does not bother you, then I would suggest not taking on the task of tuning your clarinet yourself because this is a system that you do not understand. Each note on a Wurlitzer clarinet is tuned to both the tone hole where the note vents and then to the sub-tone (the tone hole nearest to the main note). This means that each note is dependent on a second tone hole to play in tune with itself, and is also part of the reason why tuning on these instruments are so complex and problematic (in my opinion). This double venting does produce a wonderful, resonant sound however.
8). It is my feeling that Wurlitzer tunes their RB clarinets with a main goal of the voicing of the note more than the intonation. If they have a choice of how the note sounds vs. how it tunes, they will go with how it sounds. It may mean the note is not quite in tune, but will sound more even when played together in a scale.
9). Lastly, if you still want to pursue the goal of improving the intonation, consult another respected German maker who has a track record of working on these clarinets for other professionals (mainly from the Netherlands) and knows how to properly fix them. Here are some suggestions:
Harald Huyng
Swenk & Segelke
Wolfgang Dietz
Leitner & Kraus
You will notice that I did not include Wurlitzer in this list. The professional players that I have had contact with who had the same intonation issues that you are having made little progress going back to Wurlitzer. They ended up going to one of those listed above and consulting with them for help.
There are also other independent repair persons in Germany that have very good recommendations from players and who do excellent work.
10). Sell your Wurlitzer's and buy a set of Leitner & Kraus RB clarinets. I just bought a new set of these and the intonation on them is excellent. Better than even my Buffet R13's that had been customized and tuned. The bore on them is different and that is most likely why they tune better.
Wurlitzer re-designed the bore on the 185 several years ago and this is when most of the intonation problems really started for most people. They made the bore on the upper joint bigger so that it would allow a more flexible pitch and be closer in sound character to a French clarinet. This did change the sound and flexibility, but it also impacted the tuning on the left hand. You get flat throat tones and very sharp clarion notes. Very wide 12th's in other words. This also required that they change their RB barrel design as well to accommodate a larger opening at the top of the upper joint. Older Wurlitzer mouthpieces do not work so well with this new bore design. I went back to them and tried out many more mouthpieces until I did find several P4's that worked very well when using Foglietta model B & D reeds, or Sinus model D # 3 reeds.
In the end, you may make some progress to improve the intonation issues which brings you close enough to live with. The main reason people end up buying the Wurlitzer RB clarinets is because of the sound, not because they play well in tune. When you finally figure out all of the things above, you will just begin to explore the sound possibilities that these clarinets offer.
Please feel free to e-mail me off list if you have any questions.
Tom Henson
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Author: Micke
Date: 2008-03-18 11:53
Hello!
Just a few days before Henson's comment above, I sent my set of Wurlitzer RB model 187 (with added low e/f-correction) to Wurlitzer for some intonational and other corrections and adjustments (I bought them in 2002). On the A-clarinet I have similar problems as Menendez, with the left hand upper notes - but on the B-clarinet I actually don't have these problems. I expect getting the instruments back next week, and after testing them, I will tell you here about the results.
By the way, before buying the 187 set, I also tested a 185 B-clarinet, but I found the 187 to be better in tune (especially the left hand tones) - at least on those individuals. Could it be that the extra "gadgets" on the left hand part of the 185 makes it more difficult getting in tune?
I have used the Wurlitzer M4 ebonite mp, and Vandoren White Master 2,5 (but most of them I have to soften). Since just a few weeks ago I have been playing on their new M5+ mp, but without any significant changes in intonation.
Micke Isotalo
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Author: rtaylor
Date: 2008-04-08 21:17
I had similar intonation problems described here. I just got my set back from Wurlitzer. I explained the intonation problems and they said they were aware of the problem. They are now vastly improved from their original tuning. Now with most reeds the varience is only about +/- 5 cents. Couldn't ask for much more than that.
Just for the record, I'm using a Zeretske re-faced K4* mouthpiece from Wurlitzer along with Vandoren BlackMaster size 3 reeds. This setup seems to get me what I want out of the instruments for now.
Kudos to Bernd Wurlitzer and his staff for recognizing the problem and fixing it.
It's been my experience over the past four years that I have played these types of instruments, that barrels and mouthpices/reeds can make some difference, but they won't correct for the + 30 cents sharpness that I was getting from them before the repairs.
Robert
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Author: rtaylor
Date: 2008-04-09 13:01
I have sent them an e-mail asking what was done but I have not heard back yet. When I do I'll post their answer here.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2008-04-09 21:58
Nice to hear that Robert above got his set fixed. However, I'm sad to say that I myself didn't notice any improvement at all after getting my set back about two weeks ago.
The tuning issues I asked to be fixed (if possible) was as follows, in my original writing to Wurlitzer:
The B-clarinet:
1) h1 is about 1-2 Hz (or about 4-8 cent) low, and should be raised to the corresponding level as c2 (but perhaps this is impossible without replacing the entire bell, and this I think would be too costly for me).
2) e2 is about 3 Hz (or about 11-12 cent) low, and should be raised to the corresponding level as d2 or c2.
3) f2 is about 2 Hz (or about 8 cent) low, and should be raised to the corresponding level as d2.
The A-clarinet:
1) e2 is about 2 Hz (or about 8 cent) low, and should be raised to the corresponding level as c2 or d2.
2) a2 is about 2 Hz (or about 8 cent) high, and should be lowered to the corresponding level as f2.
3) ais2/b2 is about 3 Hz (or about 11-12 cent) high.
4) h2 is about 3 Hz (or about 11-12 cent) high.
5) c3 is about 4 Hz (or about 15-16 cent) high.
(end of original writing to Wurlitzer)
Mostly the c3 on the A-clarinet is actually about 5-6 Hz (about 20 cent) high, but I didn't want Wurlitzer to make too drastic changes, perhaps affecting the corresponding f1 too much (now in retrospect, this precaution was of course quite needless …).
The setup I used before the repair, and for testing afterwards, was the following: M4 RB mp, 2,5 White Master reed, B+-marked barrel (length 55,0 mm) for the B-clarinet, and A+-marked barrel (length 55,5 mm) for the A-clarinet, instruments warm and a1 tuning 442.
The issues on the B-clarinet I can live with, and as until now (and whenever possible) I will use the following special fingerings for e2 and f2, which puts them both in very nice tune:
1) f2: Normal f2 fingering + dis2-key
2) e2: Normal e2 fingering + dis2-key + c2-key
For the low h1 there is of course no other solution but tightening the embouchure (it's a little bit puzzling to me that the h1 is low, since the corresponding low e is really low – i.e., it would be more understandable if the h1 were made a little bit high, that way rising also the low e).
The A-clarinet is more troublesome, but based on recommendations in previous comments above, I also purchased a Viotto N1+2 mp, and for me it really helps lowering the lh upper notes. At least a partly explanation may be that the Viotto mp rises the overall pitch, which in turn allows for a longer barrel (in my case a 57,0 mm A+), which then lowers the lh notes (especially the uppermost, and in both the high and low register). Anyway, the lh upper notes are still somewhat high, but the following special fingerings are helpful at least for me:
1) c3: Normal c3-fingering + lh 3:rd finger + gis2key
2) bb2: Normal bb2-fingering + rh 2:nd or 3:rd finger (perhaps also the dis2-key)
3) a2: Normal a2-fingering + gis2-key + rh 1:st + rh 3:rd finger
For the b2 I haven't found any other fingering-solution but releasing the register-key, which however puts you in risk of losing the note.
By the way, I don't press the dis2-key on any of the notes above cis3 – otherwise they get too high (but only on the A-clarinet, on the B-clarinet I use the dis2-key "normally").
All these special fingerings are of course more or less clumsy, but perhaps they can be for at least some benefit also to others than me.
I'm of course very curious about why Wurlitzer managed fixing Roberts set (with perhaps even severer problems than mine, since he mentioned deviations up to 30 cent), but not mine. I will ask them, and then also tell you here.
By the way, the price for my repair was 654,50 euro per instrument (including tax), plus shipping, and included renewal of all cork and pads, polishing of the metal-parts, and removal of the remnants of the original lacquering of the bore (I don't think any springs were renewed, but probably that wasn't essential at this stage). It also seems that they managed brightening the sound of the bb1 on the A-clarinet, which I had asked especially for (actually I haven't tested this with my original M4 mp, but at least it sounds OK now with the Viotto mp). A bouncing of the cis2-key (when released hastily) on both clarinets was also fixed – probably due to new and softer pads.
Concerning Henson's comment above, about letting for example Leitner & Kraus fix tuning issues on Wurlitzer clarinets, it would be of interest to hear if someone has tried that? How were the results, and very interesting would also be if the sound were affected in any way?
Even though Wurlitzer's RB clarinets obviously are somewhat tricky concerning tuning, it seems to me that they are still quite outstanding concerning sound.
Micke Isotalo
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Author: kenb
Date: 2008-04-10 10:16
Thanks for your detailed post Micke, it is almost an exact parallel to my RB experiences.
On ' A' clarinet: For C3 try lh3+lhG#+ rhA# (side key). Of course this is awkward, but good for a sustained note (well, for me anyway)...
The instruments (185) I play were built in 1993. A friend has a set built in 1984 when HW was running the show. They were ordered by George Pieterson and have the Bb running of the G# throat key - the original Schmidt design????? (Hans de Nijs knows about this stuff, maybe he's lurking).
I've been meaning to pay my friend (who lives far away) a visit to compare notes, so to speak. His correspondence hasn't mentioned any big problems with intonation...
Post Edited (2008-04-10 10:20)
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Author: rtaylor
Date: 2008-04-10 20:58
Maybe I got lucky on getting mine fixed.
I wanted to add that I too had to make similar changes to my embochure and voicing that Tom mentions above. Doing that did correct for a lot of issues.
I have played on the Leitner & Kraus instrumnets for brief time and found them to be lacking in depth of sound that the Wurlitzer's get. I can't say anything about how they tune becuase I wasn't in a position to check at the time.
Switching from my Buffet R13s was a big change in style of playing so if any of you are going back and forth between the two types of instruments, I wish you luck. The differences at least for me were too large to easily compensate for quickly.
As a side note, is anyone in this thread going to Kansas City for the convention? I think it would be interesting in trading experiences etc with other RB players. Just a thought.
RObert
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2008-04-29 09:15
I have now been in contact with Wurlitzer about the results of the recent repair of my instruments, where I couldn't notice any changes at all concerning tuning (see my previous comment above). I don't know anything about the reason for that, but anyway they have now offered to take the instruments back without any extra charge for me. This shows real responsibility from their part, and with the very positive outcome in Robert's case in mind, I'm now very hopeful also. I will send the instruments back in about a month, and later I will tell also here about the results.
In every business something sometimes goes wrong, but what really counts is of course what the company involved is doing for rectifying matters - and so far I'm very pleased with the response from Wurlitzer. I also have understanding for the difficulties that comes when you are not personally involved in the tuning process (but just have sent the instruments to them), possible misunderstandings because of different languages, and so on.
By the way, here comes two more special fingerings:
1) To sharpen the e1: Normal e1 fingering + lh3 + d#1-side key (also the c#1-key can be added, if needed).
2) To sharpen the d#1, add the c#1-key to the normal fingering.
It may however be that these, and/or my previous suggestions doesn't work as well on the 185 model, than on my 187 (at least "kenb:s" suggestion above for the c3 makes it even sharper than the normal fingering on my 187 A-clarinet).
Micke
Post Edited (2008-04-29 09:26)
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Author: Tom Henson
Date: 2008-05-22 21:12
I am going to reopen this thread because I have more observations that may prove helpful to those discussing this issue.
I sent my set of Wurlitzer model 185 clarinets for a full overhaul and to repair some damaged keys on my A clarinet. I received them back last week. One of the things that I asked them to work on was the tuning on my Bb. It had the same issue of wide 12th's as has been discussed in this message thread. I don't think mine was any worse or better than what others have posted.
I know that I had earlier remarked about Wurlitzer not having the best luck in addressing the tuning issues on the Reform Boehm clarinets, but I felt as long as I had to have some repair work done by them it was only fair that I would give them a chance to see if they could make any improvement to the tuning issue. I am happy to report that they did make some quantifiable improvement to the tuning on my Bb. But I also discovered something that I think may be affecting the tuning of these clarinets in general and it has nothing to do with the clarinets. Below is an experiment that I performed last night over a 3 hour test session on the Bb. I think it brings to light where much of the tuning problems lie and would be interested to see if anyone else has tested to this extent. I tested quite a few mouthpieces I have from various makers and here is what I found.
The single biggest influence to the tuning was the mouthpiece which accounted for as much as 20-25 cents flat or sharp just by changing the mouthpiece. This was very evident in the throat tones because these are the notes closest to the mouthpiece. As you get progressively farther away from the mouthpiece, the tuning anomalies are reduced. No doubt, the inner bore of the mouthpiece and it's design is what is influencing this outcome. Some mouthpieces simply work better with the Wurlitzer bore than others.
The second biggest influence was the reed, which accounted for the other 10 cents difference. When combined, I was able to change the tuning either flat or sharp by as much as 35 cents just by changing the mouthpiece/reed combination, a tremendous amount.
The biggest effect of changing the mouthpiece/reed combination was in the lower register which was flat, but particularly in the throat tones. The upper register was not affected to the same degree, as I still had sharpness when playing above the middle G, but I was now able to manage it enough to get it close to being in tune, depending on which mouthpiece and reed I used. It may be possible that work on the barrels at this point may further mitigate the sharpness in the clarion register.
I know that Micke said he was not sure Wurlitzer had indeed done any tuning work on his Bb and could not tell any real difference. The way that I know they did do tuning work on my Bb clarinet is the fact that the volume and timber from note to note seems to be more even than before I had them work on it. I had a couple of notes before that were louder than others and this has now been fixed. I also examined the tone hole chimneys with a lighted magnifying glass and saw some minor changes. The result is my scale is now much more even in every way. The left hand to the right hand transition is very even compared to before when I had a slight break between the two.
This evenness tends to trick the ear into hearing that the clarinet is playing better in tune until you check it with an electronic tuner (unless you have perfect pitch). This also confirms my thinking that Wurlitzer tends to tune in favor of the timber or sound of the note vs. the actual interval tuning. Given a choice between sound/timber and interval, they will choose the sound. By the way, I did verify that my Korg tuner was calibrated correctly against a test tone generated from another electronic tuner that I have. I ruled out any possibility that my tuner was defective.
I tested the following mouthpieces and checked carefully the tuning characteristics for each one:
Viotto - I have two N1+2
Leitner & Kraus - F10
Leitner & Kraus - V100 (similar to N1 facing)
Wurlitzer - N1 rubber
Wurlitzer - P4 - one rubber and two acrylic
Reeds:
Pflammer-Sinus model D, strength # 3.
I first checked all of the above mouthpieces using a single barrel just to get a comparison and baseline. Once I had some tuning figures for this one barrel, I then compared that to the other two barrels that I have to see if I saw any similarities or patterns.
I think below will be an eye opener and confirm my statement that the mouthpiece appears to be the single biggest factor to affect the tuning characteristics of the Wurlitzer Reform Boehm clarinets.
Viotto - N1+2:
I love the sound that these mouthpieces make overall. Sound of the throat tones was very clear, focused and full. However, both of my N1+2 also produced flat throat tones which lead to the worst tuning characteristics over all. These two mouthpieces had flatness in the throat tones as much as 35 cents. They were equally as sharp in the upper register as you go up the scale.
Low C without register key showed to be in tune at A440. This varied by the same amount for each barrel which proved that the mouthpiece was consistently tuning the same, except that each barrel was tuned to A440, A442, and A 444.
Open G showed to be about 20-30 cents flat, depending on the strength of the reed used. The softer, the flatter.
Throat Bb was flat about 35 cents. Then B natural was back in tune.
Leitner & Kraus - F10:
The bore of this mouthpiece works very well with my L&K clarinets. The bore of my L&K clarinets should be very close to a Wurlitzer clarinet made up until 1990 when Herr Leitner and Herr Kraus left Wurlitzer. This mouthpiece may work well with the older bore design of Wurlitzer Reform Boehm because of this. Not sure what the tip opening on this mouthpiece is.
Sporadic tuning issues. Some groupings of notes played well in tune and some did not. The sound from one group to another changed enough that I would not use this mouthpiece with my Wurlitzer clarinets. This may an example of how each manufacturer's mouthpiece is really designed to be used with just their instruments for best results.
Leitner & Kraus V100:
Pretty much the same as above, but this did sound better overall. Still not ideal though the tuning anomalies were not as bad as with the Viotto mouthpieces. Same problem with some groups of notes sounding really good and some weak and not clear. Tuning was within 20 cents overall.
Wurlitzer N1 Rubber:
Excellent sound. Perhaps the best sounding mouthpiece of all that I tested with the Wurlitzer clarinets. I was not a big fan of this facing because it is so close at 1.00mm. It is more reed picky than the other mouthpieces, but played very well with the right reed.
Tuning was generally good with the throat tones only flat within a 10 cent range. With the right reed I could get this down to about 5 cents. Still sharp in the upper register left hand about 20 cents.
This mouthpiece alone began to convince me that the tuning issues I had were not really all the fault of the clarinet.
Wurlitzer P4, rubber & acrylic:
I think this has a tip opening of only .95mm, but it plays like it has a more open tip. This is probably because the facing is shorter than on the N1 and thus the reed has more vibration. This facing works very well with the Sinus model D # 3 reed. An ideal combination.
This was the best mouthpiece of all of them, regardless if it was made of rubber or acrylic. I was able to get the entire lower register to play within 5 cents from bottom to top. Low G to open G, I could peg the tuner to be perfectly in tune just using my embouchure alone.
Still had sharpness in the upper register starting at G. Clarion C was about 15 cents sharp, but I was able to get it close using fingerings and embouchure changes.
With this mouthpiece, all barrels played consistently the same way and I see no reason this instrument would not compare favorably to any French system for tuning. It may be possible to gain more improvement by having barrel work done to fine tune it which would put this clarinet in very good tuning.
Finally, I want to emphasize that the scale of my Bb clarinet is improved and now has a very even sound and volume wise. This will make it easier to blend with other clarinets in a section in my opinion. I would not hesitate to use this clarinet in either an ensemble or solo situation with this P4 mouthpiece.
My conclusion is that the mouthpiece appears to have the single biggest impact on the tuning of the Wurlitzer Reform Boehm clarinets. If you consider that the closer you get to the mouthpiece the greater the anomaly and the farther away you get the less problem you have. This appears to remain consistent which leads me to believe that the clarinet itself is not the problem now.
There is no doubt that my Bb did have some tuning issues that were corrected by the technician. But, I have to conclude that much of the problem resulted from a mouthpiece/reed mis-match to the bore. Someone else commented, wisely, that it is probably best to use the mouthpiece made by the manufacturer, but I do believe that an after market one could work equally as well, if the maker understands the uniqueness of the bore.
By the way, the Viotto mouthpieces do exhibit the same flatness problems on my Leitner & Krauss clarinets, but to a much less degree, being about 10 cents which can be controlled by barrel, reed, and embouchure.
I hope that this adds valid information to this important discussion, as I do sincerely love the sound that these Wurlitzer clarinets make.
Tom Henson
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-05-23 06:38
Tom- thanks for sharing your experiences with us. You wrote:
"I have to conclude that much of the problem resulted from a mouthpiece/reed mis-match to the bore"
Have you actually measured the bore diameter of the barrel and the Wurlitzer mouthpiece? I did this with some Wurlitzer mouthpieces a few months ago and found that the bore of the MP was wider that that of the barrel, and therefore didn't "match" at all. Viotto and french mouthpieces (eg. Vandoren) had a closer measurement match.
The question of course only has a theorectical interest, because if the results you are getting are good for both sound and intonation, then it doesn't really matter if the measurements "match".
I have to say that none of the mouthpieces I tried brought the instrument anywhere near the professional-level tuning that I am accustomed to on French instruments. The tuning issues were different depending on which mouthpiece I played with, but in every case the problems were big enough to prevent me from trying these instruments in a professional orchestra.
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Author: Menendez
Date: 2008-05-23 15:23
Hello,
Well, I am who started this post.
At the same time i posted here, i wrote to Charles Stier to comment him my intonation problems.
He recommended me to use Wurlitzer MPs. I orderered with my 185 RB clarinets the wiener model W4 mouthpiece.
After several months practicing with Wurlitzer mouthpiece i have less problems with intonation, but still some notes are sharp, and too much difficult to blend with Buffet clarinets. These notes are in the left hand upper register: G#, A# and C. This last note (C) is not only sharp... the big problem is this note is very erratic to tune... Very little changes in the embochure means to be sharp or flat... but to do the correct embochure to play this particular note in tune is a nightmare.
Also, I have to say i modified two capsules: register capsule is closer... it helps me to down lef hand sharpness in upper register. The problem is the Bb of throat tones is flat, and it is necessary to change the capsule and do it more wider to sharp Bb. The other problem is B of third line of pentagram is flat... impossible to blend with Buffets, because Buffet always are a little sharp in this note.
I must to go work now... Later i will comment another interesting things about this post.
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Author: Tom Henson
Date: 2008-05-24 05:20
Attachment: Ref.b.2_filtered.jpg (634k)
Hello all,
I do not have a bore gauge, so I have not measured the bore of the mouthpieces against the bore of the barrels. My test only were to see what the differences were between the various mouthpieces I own and I was surprised to see such a big difference. The results were valid in as much as I did test with a properly calibrated electronic tuner.
Another thing that must be taken into account is if the bore is the older design or the newer one. This will also affect the results from mouthpiece to mouthpiece. I do have some idea about the older bore as I have played on a set and my Leitner & Krauss clarinets are very similar to the bore as it existed around 1990 when Herr Leitner left Wurlitzer to start his own company. One improvement that L&K made to the upper bore is the tenon is now on the barrel and not the top of the upper body. This results in a barrel with a longer bore by as much as an inch. I was told this allows them to do more things in the barrel design regarding not only the tuning, but the sound character as well. I can only say that it works quite well, but you would not be able to use any aftermarket barrels on them unless they were custom made. I will attach a picture so you all can see what I am talking about.
I have some advice to give all of you which I have learned the hard way, and with the help of a close friend who knew a great deal about Wurlitzer clarinets. His name was Gordon Bobbett and he was the early teacher of Charles Stier. He recently passed away from kidney cancer, but he and I spent many hours talking shop about Wurlitzer clarinets. He had more Wurlitzer clarinets than anyone else in the US and I got to play on all of them.
My advice to you all is before you come to any conclusion and decision about the tuning on your Wurlitzer clarinets is that you much first learn the proper way to play on them. Because all of us came to the Wurlitzer system from playing on French clarinets we are at a big disadvantage. You must remember that the Reform Boehm clarinets have more in common with the German system than the French and you must approach playing them from that perspective. How many of you started out playing clarinet on a German system?
First, we have no teacher who plays on these clarinets and who already has the knowledge and wisdom gained from their experience. Second, Wurlitzer does not give us any information about what makes their clarinets special or different from anyone else’s. They consider all of the technical design of their instruments to be closely guarded trade secrets. What I know and learned, I learned on my own and from my friend.
Second, I strongly recommend that you do NOT go and modify these instruments unless you first learn how to properly play them. Once you have learned how to play on them, then you will be in a position to know what type of problems they may have. Until then, the only comparison that you can make is in regard to a French system clarinet and they are like night and day. You can't simply pick up a Reform Boehm clarinet and play it like a Buffet. Yes, you will make lovely sounds, but you will most likely be horribly out of tune.
A Wurlitzer clarinet is designed like no other clarinet in the world, and all of the other Reform Boehm clarinets that are made today are nothing but copies of the original Fritz Wurlitzer design. Herbert Wurlitzer, Fritz' son improved the design while he was alive, but he died about 1989. Ulrich, Herbert's son, has taken over the design of the clarinets now and is probably responsible for the change in the bore design starting around 2004-2005. Ulrich is also a professional clarinetist and his skill both as a player and a maker is the real secret behind the success of Wurlitzer today.
How many of you knew that the Wurlitzer bore design uses a double venting system? Are you aware that each note is vented and tuned to the sub-tone below it? This is what makes the sound of their clarinets so unique and why they have so much resonance. This also gives the clarion notes their bell like quality, almost like you are striking a bell when you sound the notes up high.
This is part of the reason that the tuning is very difficult to do well on these instruments. On the Ohler system, they get around this with all the many extra tuning holes next to the main tone hole. However, the Reform Boehm clarinet does not have all of these extra tuning holes. The only extra holes are on the side of the bottom joint and the second hole for the low F. If you have the low E/F improvement like I do, you also have a tuning hole just below the bottom of the lower joint and a large tone hole on the bell itself.
So this is part of the genius of this design, but like many things German, is very, very complex in design and execution. When done well it is outstanding, and when done poorly it is simply bad.
Wurlitzer clarinets also do funny things to electronic tuners sometimes. Because of this double venting and the extra partials that make up each note, the tuners can sometimes not get a lock on the main tone in order to decide what partial is the predominant one. You will see this when the needle goes all over the place trying to decide what note you are playing. Back away from the tuner and it will get a lock.
The Wurlitzer bore design is best for playing in large concert halls. What may sound out of tune up close may not sound so out of tune farther away as the sound travels. The sound of these clarinets was optimized for this type of environment and the partials were very carefully tuned for this. I know some of you may disagree on this point, but it all started with Fritz Wurlitzer back in the 60's. The original Wurlitzer clarinets were large bore clarinets and produced a very powerful and loud sound. As the Berlin orchestra's taste changed, some complained that they were too loud. So Fritz went back to the drawing board and completely redesigned the bore of their German system clarinets in an attempt to accommodate this change in taste. This resulted in a narrow or smaller bore clarinet. However, Fritz, being an acoustical genius, understood that volume alone does not make a clarinet heard above the orchestra. He set about to improve the resonance that the clarinet produced to make up for the smaller sound. It was his thinking that more resonance would allow the sound to carry farther in a concert hall. Double venting was developed and became the standard. The new Wurlitzer clarinets went on to set THE standard for sound and still do today, although other makers are getting very close to matching it, mainly from people who used to work for Wurlitzer like Herr Leitner.
Herbert Wurlitzer then applied this new resonance concept to the Reform Boehm clarinets and also made their bore narrower at the same time. Thus, the Wurlitzer sound was carried over.
Now, it is very important to pick the right mouthpiece for your particular clarinet to get the best tuning baseline that you can. However, if you don't know how to properly play on a German mouthpiece, you will never pick the right one. I suggest that you completely throw out the window everything you ever learned about embouchure on a French clarinet.
Also, do NOT use a French mouthpiece on the Wurlitzer clarinets unless you want to have a very expensive sounding Buffet.
On a French mouthpiece, you have a wider tip opening and a longer and wider reed. Typically, you take in as little mouthpiece as you can, but certainly not a lot. This is because of the mouthpiece facing design and how the French reed vibrates against this facing. Because a French mouthpiece and reed will allow a great deal of vibration, you have to minimize this or control it at some point or you will not be able to control the sound, much less the articulation as you slap tongue against the reed on the wide tip.
Playing on a German mouthpiece is completely the opposite. Because the design of the reed is made to vibrate fully against a closer facing, and one that is shorter, you must take in much more mouthpiece. If you don't believe me, go to YouTube and watch as many videos as you can of Sabine Meyer, Wenzel Fuchs, Karl Heinz-Steffens, and others who play on a German system clarinet. Note that they take in a great deal of mouthpiece and they typically do NOT use the flat chin of steel like we were taught on the French mouthpiece. Why, because their tuning will be all over the place and they will not be able to control the sound on the closer tip and harder reed.
When you take in this much mouthpiece, it will feel very strange and everything you were taught goes out the window. But, if you are doing it correctly, you will notice that your airflow is now closer to the back of your throat. As you learn to control the airflow and how this must interact with the back of the throat, you will suddenly discover that your tuning is much better than before. Especially when playing up high in the clarion because you will be using a looser, deeper embouchure.
Now that you are beginning to understand how to play on a German mouthpiece and reed, you must now learn to let go.
On a French clarinet, you are making constant, small and invisible changes in your embouchure and throat to compensate for the tuning characteristics of a French bore design. Jonathan Cohler posted on the Klarinet list a while back that he teaches his students that EACH note must be voiced individually in order to master playing on a French clarinet. This is ridiculous and unheard of in Germany.
What you do not realize is that when you pick up your Wurlitzer clarinet you are also doing the same thing. STOP!!!!! This will completely throw off the tuning.
Nodal Locking. What is nodal locking? Nodal locking is an acoustical term used to describe the way each note interacts with the note next to it. How precisely one note locks will determine the interval relationship between the note next to it and if there is any break in sound between it.
Acoustical lesson 101. French system vs. German system. A French bore is designed with a lot of flexibility in the nodal locking. This is a good thing because it allows you to play that wonderful glissando in Rhapsody in Blue. The French mouthpiece and reed is also designed to work with this flexibility. When playing on a French clarinet one must push between the notes to cover the resulting bend where the note you started on does not have a clear break in the transition to the next note. This is what allows you to bend notes so easily on a French bore. So this very impreciseness or lack of precise nodal locking is what make a French clarinet, well French.
Now comes the German bore design. If you want to hear a good example of precise nodal locking, go play a scale on a piano. There is no bending moment between the notes, is there? There is nothing but a precise ending of the first note, a clean break, and then the next new note at a different internal. This is nodal locking at its best.
This is how the bore of a German clarinet is designed and how the original clarinets were way back when they were first invented. Why is this important? Because you have to blow on a German clarinet differently. Your air flow must be constant with NO changes like you make when playing on a French system.
My friend said there is no secret to playing on a Wurlitzer clarinet, just blow, blow, blow, and then blow some more. Just a constant, steady stream of air.
But what about the tuning of each note? Won't I need to make all of those small, invisible changes like I did before. NO! To put it simply, just blow the damn thing and let the clarinet play itself. The nodal locking will take over and result in the most even scale you have ever heard, but with an incredible amount of resonance.
Now go back to YouTube or put on a CD of the Stamitz clarinet concertos played by Sabine Meyer. Nodal locking is most apparent on fast scales and arpeggios. Listen closely as you hear this nodal locking. The effect is that parts of her playing actually sound more like an organ than a clarinet. This is nodal locking at its best and is the reason you bought a Wurlitzer clarinet.
I can also tell you that Robert Marcellus discovered the wonders of nodal locking. He had Hans Moennig, a German (any coincidence?), keep working on his Buffet clarinets over and over because he was searching for that "German" sound. Gordon Bobbett, who studied under Marcellus for 6 years back in the 60's told me that Marcellus and he used to talk all the time about a German clarinet player (Heinrich Guesser-teacher of Karl Leister) that he had heard on a recording and became absolutely obsessed with his sound. This is what lead him to find Hans Moennig and then on to Kaspar. By the way, Marcellus played on German cut reeds called Moree. Do you begin to see a pattern here? If you listen to Marcellus play fast arpeggios, you will begin to hear this nodal locking that Hans Moenning put into his Buffet clarinets. This, combined with the Kaspar mouthpiece and Moree reeds were the secret to Marcellus' sound. Not Buffet. By the time Hans Moennig finished working on Marcellus' clarinets, they had more in common with a German system than a French, but it was a highly customized version requiring custom mouthpieces and reeds to make it all work.
The real genius of Hans Moennig is that he applied his knowledge about German bore instruments to the French system, and in the process improved them greatly. This is why when he died his knowledge died with him and no one has since been able to figure out what it was that he did to make the Buffet's play and sound the way they did. Keep in mind Hans was so good he would make each clarinet sound the way the owner wanted it to sound. There was no one mold or formula that he always used. That is why an original Moennig barrel will only work properly on the clarinet for which it was made. The same could be said about the Kaspar mouthpieces that were custom made for people like Marcellus.
Tom Henson
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-05-24 15:32
Tom, thank for your informative post. It did seem somewhat patronising in tone, but I'll just assume that I'm misunderstanding your tone in this written medium and that you are enthusiastically sharing your experiences!
The thing is, I have played with professional players who play Wurlitzer reform-Boehm, and while they do manage to get good results with these instruments, they do have to work much harder to get acceptable intonation than we French players do. The players themselves would be the first to admit that there are certain registers where the intonation is just way off. They say it is a real struggle to play these instruments in tune. (Something which, in your enthusiasm, you don't seem to be able to admit) The amount of embouchure adjustment and fingering shadings which they have to use is far more than I have to do on a Buffet.
I think that in clarinet playing there is sometimes a compromise between tone quality, dynamics and intonation. For example, on a typical Buffet clarinet it is impossible to play a low F in fortissimo with a wonderful rich tone, and still be in tune, unless one has time to quickly push in before that note comes. Intonation is usually of utmost importance (except perhaps in certain solo pieces) so the compromise would be to play a little softer and not with an overly open and relaxed embouchure. You get the note in tune but play a bit softer and less rich-sounding than you would like.
To me the Wurlitzer RB instruments are just too much of a compromise. The instrument may have a beautiful tone, but one loses that tone on too many notes when adjusting them for intonation.
If you're able to play your instrument in tune to your own satisfaction then congratulations!
You wrote: "What may sound out of tune up close may not sound so out of tune farther away as the sound travels"
I find this very hard to understand...
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Author: Tom Henson
Date: 2008-05-24 18:39
Hello Liquorice,
Let me try to clarify things a bit. It was late at night and my post only takes you through the learning how to properly play on a German mouthpiece before you make any decision about the tuning characteristics of your clarinet. I never said or made the claim that these clarinets have perfect intonation, and indeed we all have seen similar tuning issue up high with sharpness. It was my goal to educate those that do not know how to play on a German mouthpiece how much different they are and why they will fail if they approach it by comparison to playing on a French system.
If I am reading your last post correctly, you do not play on a Reform Boehm clarinet, but a French system. Hopefully you have had the opportunity to play on one to at least see some of the things we are discussing here. If I am incorrect is my assumption, then please forgive me.
Even the best matching mouthpiece that I have does not completely fix the sharpness up high, but it gets it down enough that I can get it close using various methods. Do I have to work harder to do this, yes. But that is all part of the learning curve to play on these instruments.
Those that choose to play on a Wurlitzer or another brand of Reform Boehm do so mainly because of the unique sound qualities that they have. If you looked at the photo that I attached, you saw how Leitner & Kraus has changed their barrel design in part to give them more options for tuning and sound character. These instruments do play better in tune out of the box, but they also have a different sound character than the Wurlitzer. Those that I have talked with in the Netherlands say that the average person cannot hear these differences, but I would think the person playing them would. I know because I have a set of both and they do sound a little different. I would not say that the Wurlitzer’s sound better than the L&K clarinets, only different. The L&K clarinets are based on the older bore design and have a more focused sound than the newer Wurlitzer bore. To some they may sound brighter. One of the main reasons I bought the L&K clarinets was because I wanted a clarinet set based on the older bore design and Wurlitzer no longer makes them. It had nothing to do with me being dis-satisfied with my Wurlitzer's. Yes, I have been frustrated with them at times. I was also intrigued with the new barrel design of the L&K clarinets.
However, even the L&K clarinets are extremely sensitive to the mouthpiece/reed that you use, so if you use one that does not match well the bore, then you have the same tuning issues you see on the Wurlitzer clarinets.
Also, take note of the statement that I made about "but like many things German, is very, very complex in design and execution. When done well it is outstanding, and when done poorly it is simply bad."
I don't see this statement as a claim that everyone else is having intonation issues and I am not because I know how to play them. Wurlitzer, like any other manufacturer, including Buffet can make outstanding clarinets and really bad ones. With Wurlitzer, the bad ones just cost more. I have played on many brands of clarinets and this is true for every brand made. The only advantage that you have when buying a French clarinet is that you can test play it before you buy it. With the German clarinets that are truly hand made, this is not so. You place your order and pray that they make you a good clarinet. If they don't, then you indeed have a problem.
Since you are from Europe, you should be aware that most of the clarinet students order a Wurlitzer through their teacher who has a relationship with the maker. This is how it is done in Germany for the most part.
If you speak or read German, do a search on Google.de for the phrase "Wurlitzer premium kunden". You should be able to find some posts on Klarinette 24 from several German professionals explaining about the best way to order a Wurlitzer clarinet. This may not be a system that is practiced or known outside of Germany, but if you read between the lines of this discussion, you will begin to see that, like any company that manufacturer things, some of the people that make them are better than others. They state in no misunderstood terms that if you order the clarinet directly from them and not through a premium kunden that the quality of the clarinet that you get may be quite different from one ordered through a respected professor. This discussion also goes on to say that the time it takes for them to make your clarinet is directly related to the level of quality that you will get. Surprisingly, they claim that the shorter time it takes for Wurlitzer to make it, the higher the quality will be. They also say that a professional level clarinet from them should only take 2 months to get, and the longer it takes the lower the quality generally will be. Very strange system.
Now I am simply referring you all to this discussion thread on Klarinette 24. I did not write this, nor can I confirm that this is true. I ordered my Bb clarinet directly from them and did not go through a professor. I did, however, have a close friend that has worked with Wurlitzer a lot, and as such, I would say he was a premium kunden. I can tell you that my Bb did have some problems that took 2 trips to Germany to fix most of them. One of the things that I did have looked at last month was tuning. I think they did improve the tuning and my scale is more even than it was before. Is it perfect, no. It still has sharpness up high. So this is why I went through all of my mouthpieces until I found the one that worked best.
My A clarinet was ordered by my friend for me and it was even shipped to his house. This clarinet is outstanding in every way. It still has sharpness up high, but not as bad as on the Bb. This clarinet could be a template for how the keywork should be set up. The keys were so perfectly made and adjusted that it just opened my eyes to what can be done regarding the set up of a clarinet. My friend, who had clarinets setup by Hans Moennig, said that my A clarinet was every bit the equal of the best work that Hans did on the Buffet keywork. It is simply an outstanding clarinet. Not perfect, but the sound is just incredible.
If you listen to the YouTube performance by Wenzel Fuchs on the Mozart Concerto (Rondo), this is exactly how my A clarinet sounds. You be the judge if you like this sound or not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLYokufORqk
It was then that I realized that the way a clarinet played is probably 50% manufacturing and 50% the skill of the person setting it up. I have another question to ask regarding the fact that French clarinets play better in tune. How much money do professional players spend to get their French clarinets set up properly? Morrie Backun and others have made an entire career from improving, fixing, and setting up French system clarinets. I know many people have easily spent the equivalent cost of the instrument itself just on accessories and customization work that needed to be done. Even Robert Marcellus would not have had his sound had it not been for Hans Moennig and all the customization that he did on his Buffet clarinets.
This is not necessarily so for a hand made German clarinet. You pay a high price to buy it, but all of this fine tuning and setup is included in this price. If you are not completely happy when you pick it up or get it for the first time, they will take it back and work with you to make adjustments as best they can and not charge you. Even my L&K clarinets made 2 trips back to Germany to get problems fixed when I first got them. Keep in mind that these are truly hand made in every respect, so there are always going to be some minor issues when brand new. You just have to work with them to get them adjusted and to your liking.
When I sent my set of Wurlitzer's back to them for overhaul, I had several keys on my A clarinet that were damaged from a stage door swinging back and hitting my clarinet. I was charged only for the overhaul. Everything else that needed to be repaired, fixed, replated, or replaced was simply included in this price. I do not think I would have received this kind of service if I had sent it back to Buffet or some other repair place. I would have been charged for every part, every minute of labor, the replating of the keys, and I would have paid much more for the repair. So I am very, very happy with their high level of service.
Learning how to play on a Wurlitzer, or any other Reform Boehm clarinet will take a complete dedication to learn all of the good things and bad things about them and try to master them. If a person that has bought one of these instruments does not realize that going into to it, and decides that they are not willing to make this effort, then my recommendation is go back to a Buffet or another French brand and you will probably be happier in the end.
When I made the decision to purchase my first Wurlitzer, it was the culmination of a year's worth of research. I had literally gone as far as I could go with my Buffet clarinets and yet still felt something was lacking. I was told by a highly respected repair tech that I had better clarinets than even some of the first chair players in major orchestras that he had worked with. And yet, I was still not happy with the sound and playing characteristics. Like Robert Marcellus, I was searching for something more and I found it in the sound of the German RB clarinet. Even as prepared as I was to make this radical change, it was still the most difficult thing I have ever done musically and I am still learning about them every day. Even with all of this work and frustration I have no doubt that I made the right decision, for me. It may not be right for someone else.
It looks like you are from Switzerland, have you had a chance to talk with Rene Oswald about the Wurlitzer clarinets? You probably have. He also makes his own line of mouthpieces and reeds. He would be a very good source to discuss the mouthpiece issues with and I am sure he is quite familiar with all the issues we are discussing.
My question to you is, if the professionals that you know are so frustrated with the tuning issues with these clarinets, why don't they simply change back to a Buffet or another French brand? Why do they continue to play on them if they have so many problems? If I were still a professional, I think at some point I would have to decide what is the better compromise, instrument wise, in order to perform at my best.
I have played my Wurlitzer’s on many occasions right alongside of Buffet and Selmer clarinets and have never had a problem matching intonation or blending in with them. Yes, some notes took effort to match pitch. Granted, I made an effort to blend and listen closely also. I never once had a single complaint from those I played with saying I was out of tune or my sound did not blend.
There are also other cases where the RB clarinets are played alongside French clarinets and I am not aware of any reported blending complaints. Steven Bates plays them in Washington, DC alongside French clarinets for the Opera there, so I know it can be done. There are many others I could also mention, but you can see some of them listed as artists on the Wurlitzer web site.
Regarding my statement about what may sound out of tune up close may not farther away. This has to do more with the way the human ear works and the partials that our ears can hear. As sound travels, some partials will carry farther than others and the character of the sound may indeed sound different from a distance than up close. This goes back to what I was told by those in the Netherlands playing on the L&K clarinets vs. the Wurlitzer’s. Even though they can hear the difference up close, the audience cannot from a distance so much.
Intonation is based upon the dominant partial being heard above all others. This is what makes a C a C. But when you start to add other partials to the mix, the sound character changes. If you start to emphasize the higher partials, then the note will begin to sound brighter or sharp to the human ear. If you emphasize the lower, then it will begin to sound dull and flat. It is the design of the Wurlitzer clarinets that the partials produced will result in the sound carrying farther in a concert hall as perceived by the human ear. What may sound bright and sharp up close, may lose some of this energy as the sound radiates out and thus it will have the effect on the human ear to sound less bright or sharp the farther away from the source. This also goes back to what I said about Wurlitzer tuning a clarinet based more upon the sound character of the notes than actual interval. As long as the scale is even, you should be able to find a mouthpiece and reed combination that should get you close.
Lastly, I was told that the Wurlitzer A clarinets tend to play better than the Bb's. I do think there is some truth in that. I think the bore of RB clarinets simply works better with a longer tube. This may explain why L&K decided to come up with their new barrel design. Because the mouthpiece and barrel can affect the upper tuning the most, they lengthened the barrel in order to have more influence on the upper bore design. This may indeed be why their Bb clarinets tend to play better in tune out of the box.
Tom Henson
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Author: pabstboy
Date: 2008-05-25 04:58
Blah Blah
Gordon Bobbett Blah blah
He was never a professional player. He never played in an orchestra for a salary. Never !!!! I have also played on his Wurlitzers Reform. Not impressed.
I also played his supposedly Cioffi Selmer Bb and A. Still not impressed. He could play Eb. Very loud!! You sound very much like him.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-05-25 14:35
Hi Tom- thanks again for your informative post.
You asked: "My question to you is, if the professionals that you know are so frustrated with the tuning issues with these clarinets, why don't they simply change back to a Buffet or another French brand? Why do they continue to play on them if they have so many problems?"
I think you answered your own question by your earlier statement:
"Those that choose to play on a Wurlitzer or another brand of Reform Boehm do so mainly because of the unique sound qualities that they have."
I see how much effort professionals have to put in to play these instruments with acceptable tuning, and I realise how much less effort I have to put in with a Buffet. (I haven't had extensive custom work done on my Buffet by the way- just one time with a technician to get my clarion F up to pitch) Personally I wouldn't have the patience to constantly struggle against these intonation issues, so I have done exactly what you recommended- "go back to a Buffet or another French brand and you will probably be happier in the end".
I listened to your YouTube link. While I was impressed with Wenzel Fuchs' beautiful tone and musicianship, I did find it telling that, even so fine a clarinetist as the principal of the Berlin Philharmonic also struggled with some of the exact intonation issues we've been discussing. OK, it was a live performance so I'm not trying to judge Mr Fuchs, but his high B in the 6th bar of the Rondo theme is sharp every time, and his high C is sometimes very sharp too. If even he can't get it right to play these notes in tune, then what chance do the rest of us have?!
Regarding the issue of blending German and French instruments, I personally think that it's not a problem, depending on who's blowing into the thing. I've played successfully in "mixed" groups. One time Karl Leister attended a performance of 'Siegfried' in which I was playing Buffet and my colleague played RB Wurlitzer. There are a lot of solos for 2 clarinets in this opera. In the break Mr Leister chatted to us in the canteen, and showed how "open minded" he is regarding French instruments, saying that he thinks they can also sound nice, but shouldn't be mixed with German instruments in the same section. We didn't tell him that we were doing that very thing, and we had a private chuckle when congratulated us afterwards on our excellent blending as a section!
(Mr Leister also asked why there were so many women in our orchestra, but let's not go there!)
I agree that the Wurlitzer A clarinets have better tuning than the B-flat instruments, and that has also been my experience when trying these instruments. I also like their C clarinet, which I find superior in sound and tuning to Buffet instruments, which are actually just short B-flat clarinets really.
Anyway, good luck on your RB instruments, and may your tuning machine register many notes in the green zone!
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Author: Tom Henson
Date: 2008-05-25 15:42
Dear Pabstboy,
Do I know you?
I do not understand why you would insult a respected teacher who is now dead. Yes, a teacher. Did I ever say he was a professional player? Obviously, he must have been a decent teacher having taught Charles Stiers who was quite a respected professional in his time. Insulting dead people is simply bad manners.
I never heard Gordon play, so I don't have any baseline of comparison since he was already too sick when I first met him.
By the way, it was Charles Stier who introduced Gordon to the Wurlitzer clarinets, not the other way around.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I have a feeling you did not even know this man. I don't know how you could have possibly compared my playing with his as the only place I have played on my Wurlitzer clarinets is in Houston. Since Gordon was from Knoxville and had not played from the day I met him, you comments appear to be less than genuine.
If you have anything constructive to add to this discussion, then by all means. But your unprovoked insults of a dead person does not present you well to this list and removes any validity of you having anything worth saying. Unless you have anything directly related to this discussion, I would ask that you refrain from posting insults.
Tom Henson
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Author: Tom Henson
Date: 2008-05-25 16:22
Dear Liquorice,
I have to completely agree with your comments about the Wurlitzer C clarinet being excellent. I have played on a C as well as an Eb and they were both outstanding. Definitely better than any Buffet or Selmer C or Eb I have played in recent years. Their Basset A clarinet is also to die for, but cost the equivalent of a small car.
I don't know why it is that Wurlitzer Bb clarinets seem to be the most problematic regarding intonation. You would think if they can make a C, Eb, and A pretty much in tune they would be able to figure out the Bb. Perhaps the formula that they are using to manufacture the Bb is flawed to some small degree, who knows.
I do know that for those with intonation problems that this can be corrected. My only advice is that you first have to understand how to blow on them in order to find the right mouthpiece and reed combination. Only then will you have a baseline of what needs to be fixed and how much.
If you send you clarinet back to them, not having done this, I have a feeling that the person working on it will know how to properly blow them and they will not find the same tuning problems that you thought you had. This make explain, in part, why some have had very mixed results when asking them to work on the tuning. Robert seemed to be very pleased with the work that they did on his Bb and I am about 90% pleased as I do see an improvement. I do still struggle with sharpness in the clarion like everyone else, but using the right mouthpiece and reed allows me to get close enough I can find work arounds.
One work around for the high B and C that works for me is to simply release the register key and close it. I know this sounds radical, but when playing these two notes there is no danger of releasing it and falling back down to the sub-tone. I find that by doing this, I can play these two notes and peg the tuner on the green. If I had to sustain a long B or C I could do this and play them perfectly in tune, no problem. It would be a little more difficult to use this method during a fast passage, but tuning is not as much a problem when you are playing fast scales, unless it is in unison.
Now, to compare my L&K clarinets to the Wurlitzer's would indeed be worth another discussion thread. This make of clarinets do not suffer the same tuning sharpness that the Wurlitzer's do. They play very well in tune out of the box. I am confident that anyone that can make a clarinet this close to being in tune can also fix any tuning issues I may later discover as the clarinet breaks in.
The one area where the L&K do have some consistent tuning issues is in the throat tones. Depending on the mouthpiece, they can be flat. This may be an indication that the way L&K approached the inherit problems with the RB bore is to lower the tuning a little toward the top of the upper body for the lower register, knowing this would also lower the tuning in the Clarion. I also note that all of the tone hole chimneys on the upper body of my L&K clarinets have a smaller opening than on the Wurlitzer's, which would lower the tuning. Smaller hole, lower; bigger hole, higher.
I also asked that L&K make me 6 barrels instead of the usual 4 (for the set). It turns out that I did not realize that with the L&K clarinets there are no separate Bb and A barrels. You use the same barrels for both clarinets, so I ended up getting 6 barrels that I can use on both. I have to say that I was a little skeptical at first, but in practice they do work just fine on both.
I also want to say that I do not hate French clarinets. If there was any way that I could play on both (well), I would be the first to do it. Sometimes a French clarinet is just right for the music that you are playing or the ensemble you are in. I cannot imagine playing the Rhapsody in Blue glissando on my Wurlitzer's, although I can do it. I also think that the RB clarinets blend better with strings and piano because of the unique sound quality. I don't see any advantage to play these instruments in a wind band though.
I have mentioned some of the reasons that I decided to go the route of playing on a RB clarinet. Each system has it good points and bad.
By the way, how many French clarinets does a professional test play before finding just the "right" one. The many manufacturing inconsistencies and inconsistent quality was another reason I looked at a German hand made clarinet. In spite of the problems that I have had, I have never had a problem with the quality of the keywork, the wood used, or anything of a purely material nature. By the way, the wood that Wurlitzer uses is part of their secret. Very heavy and dense. If only Buffet still used wood like this.
This brings up another point, Wurlitzer clarinets are quite a bit heavier than any French system. If you suffer from any wrist or hand problems do not consider buying them unless you plan to use a neck strap. They are just too heavy with the very dense wood and the heavy duty hand made keywork. They will last several lifetimes though, I must admit.
Tom Henson
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-05-25 17:15
> how many French clarinets
Is that "French" clarinet made in France, UK, Japan, Chille, USA, Canada, Italy, China... 
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Author: Tom Henson
Date: 2008-05-25 21:10
Hello Clarnibass,
Excellent point. I was referring to the big three makers from France which are Buffet, Selmer, and Leblanc.
There are now other smaller makers that do make good clarinets and I have had the pleasure of owning an Eaton and a Rossi. Both were well made, but still were no better intonation wise than a good clarinet made by any other brand I have tried. I also wasn't the biggest fan of the Rossi keys, but they did the job. I have played on the new Leblancs by Backun and felt they were very good, but that was only from a 5 minute test play.
The one thing that a smaller maker can do is produce a product that is much more consistent from one clarinet to another. This is where they are better than the big three in my opinion. However, when you get a really good Buffet, Selmer, or Leblanc, they are really good and every bit the equal of any of these smaller makers.
By the way, did you all know that Rossi spent one summer at the Wurlitzer shop. Some of the things he uses on his brand of clarinet were the result of that summer. Things like using Delrin tone hole chimney inserts. Wurlitzer has been using these for quite some time now and they do work very well. The big advantage is they can be replaced if needed since they are just glued in. He also uses a plastic or nylon insert in the end of the key rods for the pointed needle screws. This is also from Wurltizer.
My feeling is whatever brand you buy, when you get a good one, it is really good. It just comes down to what you are looking for in a clarinet. We are so blessed that today there are so many choices that did not exists just 30 years ago, and competition is always a good thing. This is true not only for clarinets, but there is a flood of good mouthpieces on the market now. Add barrels, bells and we have never had it so good.
The one thing, however, that will not improve with time is the cost. It is certain that the cost of well made clarients and accessories will continue to rise. In America, the weak dollar is really hurting those that import the Zinner blanks and anything else made in Europe today.
I could also start a thread just about comparing the current Buffet clarinets to the older ones made in the 60's during their "golden" age, whatever that is. I don't buy the saying that "they don't make them like they used to". I sold a Bb and A standard nickel plated set of R-13's that were hand picked by Francois Kloc for me when I finally made the decision to go completely with the Wurlitzer's. The A was sold to a professional in England who used it to immediately audition for an orchestra and made it to the finals. The Bb was snapped up on the spot by a university professor, commenting that it was the best R-13 he had ever played, including his own. Yes, I know we could go on and on about the difference in quality of the wood, key work, etc., but these clarinets played outstanding and they were made around 2006.
Tom Henson
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2008-05-25 22:14
Hello Menendez!
Since I don´t know your e-mail address, I ask you here on the list: In one of your earlier posts you said that your Wurlitzer mp has too much resistance, and lately you mentioned that it is a Wiener model W4. I don't know the specs of that mp, but I suppose you know that the Austrian school favors a really close tip opening - closer than the German school? Thus some other Wurlitzer mp of German style would probably be much less resistant. I myself don´t have any personal experience from Austrian style mp:s, versus German style, so please correct me if someone else has. But if I'm right, then a switching of mp may make life somewhat easier for you, Menendez.
By the way, thank you for opening this thread - it has been really enlightening to me in many respects.
Micke Isotalo
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Author: Menendez
Date: 2008-05-25 22:45
Well,
I listened video from Fuchs playing Rondo of Mozart Clarinet Concert and i not hear sharp B and C. And much less very sharp...
I want to say that when one clarinetist changes to Wurlitzer RB has two problems, apart of inherent issues in intonation of this instruments:
1) When you play with a French clarinet you do little changes in your embochure to correct picth and over all, control the sound. After a lot of years playing Buffets, you do those changes unconsciously while you are playing. When you change to Wurlitzer you play like if you were with a Buffet, and that affects negatively. You need a lot of years and hours of study to re-educate your embochure, and over all, your mind.
2) After a lot of years playing a Buffet, your ear is accustomed to his pitch.
Two weeks ago, i was with an expert Buffet repairman, because I want to overhaul my 15 years old Buffet Bb and to re-plate it, etc. We were talking about Wurlitzers RB and he said me he felt much respect for Wurlitzers. Also, he said me maybe the Buffets are not good in intonation, but our ears are too much accustomed to his intonation. He recommended me to play with Wurlitzer mouthpiece too; he compared Wurlitzers with a German car like Mercedes or Porsche, and Buffets with a Korean car like Daewoo. He said that while you have in a Wurlitzer all good components made by them (MP, barrel, the best pads, old high quality wood, one micron more of plate in the alloy than Buffets, etc...), in French clarinetes you have to choose mouthpieces from another manufacturers, barrels, pads, etc... to achieve a good result. You must to spend a lot of time too to find a good Buffet, Selmer, Yamaha, etc... If you can find it, because this repairman told me what currently Buffet, for example, works with wood dried for 6 months only. This last its the reason why i send my Buffet to do a good overhaul. My Buffet was made with several years old wood, and it sounds very good with a Vandoren M15 or Nagamatsu Wiener Model, and a Moennig R13 barrel.
In connection with the latter i said, all Mr Leister says about French clarinets is true. All you need is a singular Buffet well preset and worked correctly, a good MP, ligature, barrel and reeds, and you can sound similar to a German clarinet.
Thanks very much to Tom Henson for his very interesting posts. I am agree with him (now that i am several months working on Wurlitzers) that sound is very different in the origin than the audition is... and pitch too. I am agree that to be in center of the tuner does not mean to sound in tune. Do you know how a pianoforte is tuned? At center in medium register, little flat in low notes, more flat when more lower notes, and little sharp in high notes, more sharp when you go higher.
Maybe you can pay attention to the book "Praktische Intonationslehre
für Instrumentalisten und Sänger" from Doris Geller. This book comes with a CD with samples and you can check that the same note, played into
different chords, sounds flat or sharp. It is very curious!
Post Edited (2008-05-25 22:58)
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Author: Menendez
Date: 2008-05-25 23:28
>Hello Menendez!
>Since I don´t know your e-mail address, I ask you here on the list: In one >of your earlier posts you said that your Wurlitzer mp has too much >resistance, and lately you mentioned that it is a Wiener model W4. I don't >know the specs of that mp, but I suppose you know that the Austrian >school favors a really close tip opening - closer than the German school?
>Thus some other Wurlitzer mp of German style would probably be much >less resistant. I myself don´t have any personal experience from Austrian >style mp:s, versus German style, so please correct me if someone else >has. But if I'm right, then a switching of mp may make life somewhat >easier for you, Menendez.
>By the way, thank you for opening this thread - it has been really >enlightening to me in many respects.
>Micke Isotalo
Hello Micke!
Well, my first contact with wiener mouthpieces was with Nagamatsu 75-33, made exclusively to play with French clarinets and wiener reeds. This MP is 0.75 tip opening.
When i bought my set of Wurlitzers i started first with Willscher WF3000. But to solve intonation problems, and following Charles Stier recomendations, i started to play with Wurlitzer W4 mouthpiece that I ordered with my clarinets. W4 is 0.85... Why it is resistant? Because it is more open than Nagamatsu and much more open than Willscher WF3000, and i was using the same reeds. Then it was too hard to play with. Solution: to use softer reeds.
I tried Viotto N1+2 and i liked it, but pitch was sharp in all registers. And i like more wiener sound. Anyway, i want to buy a german mouthpiece in the future, because still i have not one.
Currently i use Wurlitzer W4 with my Wurlitzer clarinets and Xilema Reeds letter D but reduced, and Willscher WF3000 goes well with my Yamaha 457-22 German System, using Xilema reeds letter D.
Post Edited (2008-05-25 23:30)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-05-26 07:20
Dear Menendez,
If you can't hear that Mr Fuchs is wildly sharp on the B in bar 6 for example, then I suggest you spend a lot more time listening to the CD that came with the book that you recommended!
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Author: Menendez
Date: 2008-05-26 12:47
Liquorice wrote:
> Dear Menendez,
> If you can't hear that Mr Fuchs is wildly sharp on the B in bar
> 6 for example, then I suggest you spend a lot more time
> listening to the CD that came with the book that you
> recommended!
Well, Liquorice, i will do it, because i not appreciate that "wildly sharp" B  .
I attach two samples to compare: Fuchs (German clarinet) and Bliss (french clarinet). Let everyone draw their own conclusions, while the low quality sound from Youtube does not allow us to do a good comparison.
If anybody hear several times the two samples paying attention to the accompaniment, will see that Bliss gives a little sad character to the music... That not occurs with Fuchs... Maybe because certainly Bliss is a little flat (despite to be in the center of tuner) and Fuchs is not so "wildly sharp".
Post Edited (2008-05-26 13:09)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-05-26 15:36
Menendez- I tried clicking on your attachments but just got jumbled text.
I really don't understand what you are trying to prove with these samples?
"certainly Bliss is a little flat (despite to be in the center of tuner)"
So is he flat, or is he in the center of the tuner? (As I said, I haven't been able to listen to sample yet). Or are you trying to say that his tone colour makes him sound flat? And if this IS what you are trying to say, then how does that go to prove that Fuchs is actually not sharp?? The whole thing seems rather absurd to me.
Please don't think that I am in any way trying to put down Fuchs's playing. I think his playing is wonderful. The link was provided to demonstrate the beautiful character of his tone, and I can certainly appreciate that. (Although he plays German system and the discussion was actually about Reform-Boehm clarinets).
I just found it interesting that this sample also showed up some of the exact tuning problems which were being discussed. Clearly this is a tendency of the instruments, which unfortunately even comes out in a live performance of such a fine clarinetist, when he's presumably enjoying himself and not being extra-careful about his tuning. All clarinets are out of tune, and if we're not paying attention to these out-of-tune tendencies all the time, then we are likely to be out of tune some of the time.
Wenzel Fuchs displayed the sharpness in the right hand notes in this live performance, which were exactly the same notes that you were complaining about at the beginning of your thread.
So, I think the answer to your original question is: YES- these notes do tend to be sharp on Wurlitzer clarinets. After doing whatever work you can with the material to bring them in tune, you (like Wenzel Fuchs) will just have to learn to live with this tuning tendency.
Post Edited (2008-05-26 15:38)
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Author: Tom Henson
Date: 2008-05-26 16:21
Gentlemen,
I was also going to comment when Liquorice made that statement, but the quality of the recording would make such a judgment very difficult in my opinion.
The only real test I could do to try and get an objective baseline was to hold up a tuner to my speakers as he played. If this orchestra is tuned to A 444, then his B may be sharp by one or two cents at the most. Certainly not something anyone would notice in the audience.
While I wholeheartedly agree that it is the goal to have a clarinet that plays perfectly in tune, I have to say that this does not exists. Both the French and the German Systems, including the RB contain compromises in their design. While it will be possible to play in tune even 98% of the time, it would be a rare player that could play a clarinet perfectly in tune (with a tuner as you point out) 100% of the time.
As Menendez and I have tried to point out, tuning has it's subjective level and that it the human ear which is not going to hear a note the same way an electronic tuner will. It is my opinion that a good professional will understand this and realize that the ability to blend the character of the sound (read partials) is just as important as playing those notes in tune.
The basset clarinet that Bliss plays may be a Buffet (you can simply do a search on YouTube to find the videos using "bliss Mozart") and he is not necessarily playing out of tune, but this clarinet seems to favor the lower partials over the higher, thus it comes across with a duller sound which to the human ear may sound flat. I have a feeling that if you put his playing up to a tuner it would show to be in tune, but this is precisely what I have been trying to say. The way a maker designs the sound character of their clarinets affect whether they sound dull or bright depending on which partials they have designed into the bore, and thus flat or sharp. I personally do not like the way Bliss plays the Mozart and part of this has to do with his sound. It is dull and lifeless. He is very talented, no doubt.
While Fuchs may have some sharpness (debatable) on his German system Wurlitzer, I would sit at that concert and give him a standing ovation because it is so full of life and energy. The sound is so full of partials that the energy of it just radiates out, in spite of the poor recording. Imagine what this must have sounded like in person.
This is a perfect example of what I explained about how and why Fritz Wurlitzer redesigned the German clarinets back in the 60's and exactly why I prefer their sound over most French bore clarinets. As you go lower on a French bore, the sound gets very spread and sounds flat. On a German bore, the sound remains very tight and takes on tremendous, reedy vibration that just shakes you. Think of how a bass clarinet sounds. This is the sound character of German basset clarinet down low. This is very apparent on the German bore basset clarinets, although it appears that Wenzel is just playing on a regular A clarinet, but you still get that same sound character down low.
Another factor that must be considered is the difference in the two places that they played in. Bliss is playing in a very large auditorium in London and Fuchs in a smaller chruch or hall which quite a bit of echo. The clarient that Bliss plays does not sound well in such a large hall. Perhaps the mics were also not well placed. But the sound is just so dull and lifeless. To the human ear it comes across as flat.
Remember what I had mentioned about the human ear tolerating sharpness better than flatness. A little sharpness will not be disagreeable to the human ear so much as the same amount of flatness. I think this is an example of that.
I have had discussion with some directors about the effect of the size of the hall they are playing in. They all said it is better to tune sharp in a larger hall so that the "sound will carry" better and not sound dull. Again, this is a similar concept to what Fritz Wurlitzer did when he re-designed his clarinets. He chose to emphasize the higher partials so that the sound would carry farther in a large concert hall, like that used by Berlin at the time.
Trust me, unless you have perfect pitch, you are not going to care that Fuchs played a sharp B by a few cents. There is much more to performing than the goal of playing every note perfectly in tune according to a tuner. Being in the green does not always mean it sounds good.
Every professional I know will tell you that using an electronic tuner is good, but only up to a point. The concert is not played with each person having an electronic tuner on their stand trying to hit the green. Bleding of sound character is every bit as important as playing in tune and there is always a delicate balance between the two.
Tom Henson
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-05-26 21:37
Er... I'm not the one who held the electronic tuner up to my computer speakers here. It is my EARS that have been picking up the sharpness in the right hand upper register on Wenzel Fuchs's recording. These notes are often sharp in this recording, and the one that sticks out the most is the high B I've been referring to. I can't beleieve you guys can't hear this (or don't want to?)
It looks to me that it is an Italian orchestra accompanying Fuchs on this video, so they would be tuning at A=442 at the highest. I'm told that the Berlin Philharmonic tune to A=443 these days, so Mr Fuchs doesn't really have an excuse here (unless the hall was extremely hot that night).
I would have also enjoyed listening to Mr Fuchs live, and am certain that I would have enjoyed the performance a lot. I never said that intonation was the only important factor in music making. It's just that this discussion is about intonation problems of Wurlitzer instruments, and to me this recording highlighted how even a most excellent player like Wenzel Fuchs struggles to deal with the tuning issues that Wurlitzer clarinets have.
In the meantime, I'll try to get a more objective opinion about this, and will send the YouTube link to some of my non-clarinetist professional musicians, so see what they think of the intonation...
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2008-05-26 22:39
"I was also going to comment when Liquorice made that statement, but the quality of the recording would make such a judgment very difficult in my opinion."
Yes, but you presented the recording as evidence of how the clarinet supposedly sounds. Unfortunately, when people listened to it they were drawn back to the issue of the intonation of these models. You can't post a link to a recording for one reason and then dismiss the criticisms of it, especially when those criticisms are pertinent to the ongoing conversation.
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Author: Tom Henson
Date: 2008-05-27 01:16
I don't want to take this thread off on a tangent because I think it has been quite informative and helpful (it's not my thread anyway), but I did say he was sharp a few cents if tuned to A 444. If not, then it would have been more. So I don't see this as a dismissal of the known intonation issues at all which we have been discussing. I have already acknowledged that the Wurlitzer RB clarinets tend to play sharp in the left hand clarion notes. I don't see the need to repeat this, but I just have. What I did dismiss was that this sharpness would have detracted from his performance.
Personally, if I only had two clarinets I could pick from and one played sharp up high in the left hand clarion and the other sounded dull and flat down low, I would take the one that played sharp up high every time. Why, because the human ear will tolerate this better. Would I still try to improve the tuning, yes of course, given the opportunity.
If I only had a choice between two clarinets and one favored the lower partials and the other favored the higher ones, I would pick the one that favored the higher ones every time. The blend of using higher partials adds energy to the sound and this is the path that Fritz Wurlitzer took when he redesigned the bore to a smaller bore clarinet. What was taken away from the clarinet volume wise he added back in to the energy of the sound character with the blend of partials that he used to tune with.
And let’s not forget nodal locking. With a French bore clarinet, Jonathan Cohler explained on the Klarinet list that to master a French bore clarinet, you have to learn to voice each and every note. This is done by making many small, minute, and mostly invisible changes to your embouchure and mouth. Therefore, how much of the intonation on these instruments is actually flat response or the result of the manipulated sound? With nodal locking, you have very little bend to the note, so tuning of these instruments must be much more precise because they have so little flexibility of sound and this does make it harder to deal with intonation problems, granted. That is exactly why, for those that play on these clarinets, I have suggested to try as many mouthpieces as they can, try all the reeds they can find to first get what works well for them. Then they will be in a position to decide what types of intonation problems their particular clarinet has and know what needs to be fixed.
The only reason I posted the link was as an example of the sound character and how full of energy the sound was. I think it does that quite well. It is the sound that brings people to play on the Wurlitzer RB clarinets, along with some additional fingering possibilities like playing a forked Eb/Bb on the left hand. This can be very handy. Also the ability to trill a C#/G# using the right finger and the key extension is very helpful. Morrie Backun thought so much of the Wurlitzer key extension that he used it on his new clarinets by the way.
I was not trying to argue that it plays perfectly in tune. Yes, the thread did start out about intonation problems and I have offered some advice that I hope will help someone trying to learn how to play on these instruments. But if all you hear is a sharp B then you are missing the point of what I was trying to say. Perhaps that is my fault, and that is why I am trying to clarify again.
Also, as someone pointed out, Fuchs is not playing on a Wurlitzer RB clarinet, but on a full Ohler system. Thus, it is not really a valid point of comparison since our discussion is about Wurlitzer RB clarinets and not Ohler system. I have no knowledge of whether Ohler system by Wurlitzer tends to play sharp in the left hand clarion notes also. Perhaps someone that does have experience could comment. I would be quite interested to hear one way or the other.
But beyond that, it is the sound character of these clarinets that I find attractive. I have already acknowledged that they tend to play high in the left hand clarion register, so this is something that those that play on them learn to deal with. Struggle would not have been a word I would use to describe how I deal with it. You just learn new ways of fingering things. You try to find a mouthpiece and reed set up that works for you. That is what this thread is about. How do we, who play on these instruments, deal with the known intonation issues that appear to be common to them.
Finally, if you have tried different mouthpiece, reeds, and fingerings and still have intonation problems beyond what you can adjust, then by all means, send it back to Wurlitzer or some other competent firm like Leitner & Kraus to see if they can fix that. From this thread, Robert Taylor said that Wurlitzer was able to fix his tuning issues for the most part. Wurlitzer also worked on Micke's clarinet, but he was not happy with the result. They worked on mine and it is certainly better, but still sharp in the left hand clarion notes on my Bb. My scale is now more even than before, and that is certainly a step in the right direction.
We also have discussed that the A clarinets seem to have better intonation overall than their Bb's. I would also say their C and Eb has very good intonation as well, but I have only played on one example of a Wurlitzer RB C and Eb clarinet and thus this would not be conclusive.
I would use the word struggle to describe learning how to play on a German mouthpiece and reed coming from playing on a French system, no doubt. I did struggle, not having anyone who could show me and it was indeed difficult. As others have mentioned here before, it takes many hours working with this system to begin to master it coming from playing on a French bore system. If I was from Germany or some other country that played on these instruments and started on them in the beginning, I doubt I would consider it a struggle. But with the goal that I have to take full advantage of the unique sound qualities of the German RB bore, it has been worth all the work to me. It may not be worth the effort to others, and I have already suggested that unless you are completely dedicated to learn this system you would be better off just to stay with the French bore.
I also want to say that I do not feel that the German RB system is necessarily a better system than the French. Different, indeed, but I am not trying to say one is better than the other. Each system has its good things and bad. You learn to deal with them as best you can and repair what you can’t. I just happen to love the way they sound and I am willing to put in the hours to learn how to play them.
Lastly, I think the myth of the German RB clarinets not blending with French clarinets has been debunked by enough people here. If you still don’t agree, check out this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEPfqgV7K74
I have the CD and it is wonderful. Sabine Meyer playing on a 1970’s Herbert Wurlitzer full Ohler system and Julian Bliss playing on the new Leblanc/Backun clarinet. By the way, I think I hear some of Julian’s high notes a little sharp on this video.
Tom Henson
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-05-27 06:51
Tom wrote: "What I did dismiss was that this sharpness would have detracted from his performance"
I guess that's where we differ, because for me this sharpness did somewhat distract from an otherwise excellent performance.
This orchestra is playing at A=442. If Mr Fuchs was 2 cents sharp on your tuner at A=444, then I guess he must have been about 7 cents sharp at A=442. But, as you and Menedez have pointed out, being in tune on an electronic tuner doesn't mean you're in tune. In fact, as this B is the major third of a G major chord (E major at concert pitch) it should be tuned considerably LOWER than your electronic tuner. For a really pure major 3rd at A=442 I would say that Mr Fuchs would (based on your measurements) be about 20 cents too sharp. But perhaps he thinks it shoudn't be tuned that low, and sees it as a leading note which he feels should be tuned higher. Who knows? In any case, to my EAR this note is unnaceptably sharp. And as the other notes in that register are often sharp during the performance, I would conclude that it was the inherent intonation problems against which Mr Fuchs was struggling which account for this sharpness.
Tow wrote: "Also, as someone pointed out, Fuchs is not playing on a Wurlitzer RB clarinet, but on a full Ohler system. Thus, it is not really a valid point of comparison since our discussion is about Wurlitzer RB clarinets and not Ohler system."
Good point. It also means that your link was actually irrelevant to this thread, because it has been my experience that the Wurlitzer RB instruments sound quite different from their German system instruments. Although I must say that I have heard quite a lot of German system players who are also sharp in this register, so the German system Wurlitzers probably have a similar intonation problem here.
Tom- I agree that this thread has been interesting and informative, and I've found it especially interesting to read about your extensive experience with RB instruments. I do have the feeling that, because you love the sound of these instruments, you understate the intonation problems that they have. You've come up with all kinds of interesting theories about upper partials and you say that the human ear tolerates sharpness better than flatness, but I don't see these as valid reasons to play sharp!
I have spent some time trying to play Wurlitzer RB instruments and found these and other tuning issues to be prohibitive. And it's not because I voice every note like I'm playing a Buffet. I play many other kinds of clarinets in any case, and I see that other professionals who play Wurlitzer have these same intonation issues. If you're in love with the Wurlitzer RB sound then you're going to have to work extra hard to play these notes in tune. It is possible though, so good luck!
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Author: rtaylor
Date: 2008-05-27 15:26
Hello,
Tom has written a very good account of the RB experience. After playing on a set of Wurlitzer 187s and then switching to a set of 185s I had similar circumstances with the mouthpiece/reed combinations. I tried Viottos, Vandorens and finally many Wurlitzer models. What I found was that the relationship of mouthpiece to instrument was affected to a larger extent than on the Buffets I played for years. I finally settled on a Zeretzke faced mouthpiece that I choose from Wurlitzer and Whitemaster number 3s for reeds. It offers the most stable pitch and produces the tone model I have in mind. I've played in sections that mix with Buffets and found it to be easier to blend with them than others have stated here on this post. That's possibly because the American school of playing leans towards a german style tone overall. The RBs are not for everyone just as Buffets are not for everyone. Thankfully for me at least there is a choice out there other than French makers. They are all very good but just not for me.
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Author: Tom Henson
Date: 2008-05-27 19:30
I did find a link of a company in Germany called Clarissono that has published on their website intonation graphs of customer's clarinets. I don't claim to fully understand all that the intonation graphs means, but they are there to look at. The only possibly caveat I would state is that this link is from a firm in Germany who advertises that the can analyze and correct these types of intonation issues shown in the graphs. The graphs are then given as examples. I don't think these graphs represent that all German clarinets will have these tuning issues, but certainly some do.
Related to that, I believe that these intonation graphs were part of a before and after to show the customer the improvements that they were able to make to their instrument. It appears that some people were helped by a different barrel or mouthpiece than what they were using. You will need to paste this link into your browser to get to the website and I apologize for the long link.
Two Buffets Boehm clarinets were tested, an RC Prestige and an Elite along with many of the major German makers. Looking at these graphs, it is quite clear that the brand of clarinet alone is no guarantee that it will play well in tune. Some of the worst intonation shown looks to be from Yamaha, although these are German bore Yamaha's, not French. It is my understanding that Yamaha French bore clarinets have quite good intonation.
http://www.clarissono.de/CS_Archiv/Akustik/A3_Klarinetten/A3K1_Intonationskurven/AkustikKlarIntonaKurven.html#todt
Another link that may prove informative I found on the website of Foglietta, a reed manufacturer from Germany from whom I have bought several boxes of their well made reeds. This is a very small firm run by a professional clarinetist near Frankfurt. The link is in English, but it does lose some of the meaning in translation, no doubt. He talks about the effect of the mouthpiece and how the various parts of the design will affect the tuning of the clarinet. He specifically mentions problems that arise from a bore mismatch. Something we have talked about.
http://www.foglietta.com/Itip4_.htm
I think one of the biggest challenges about playing on a German RB clarinet is geographical in nature. Those of us outside of Europe are much farther away from where they are made and repaired, and thus even the accessories like mouthpieces and reeds become a challenge to find and buy. I have spent countless hours researching sources for mouthpieces and reeds, not to mention a lot of money trying things out. I have even visited with Hans Zinner at his workshop and also Alexander Willscher who makes reeds in Nurnberg. The best way to find the right mouthpiece would be to go to the person making it and work with them directly. They would be able to measure your barrels and upper bore. You would then be able to try things and they could make adjustments until you both felt the result was good. I would offer this same advice regardless if you play on a French or German clarinet, but few of us can do this.
This would be true of the clarinets themselves. I was able to travel to Germany to pick up my Bb at the Wurlitzer workshop, but I was so inexperienced that I was clueless of what to expect these clarinets to sound like. By the time I bought my Leitner and Kraus clarinets I knew enough of what to expect that I immediately sent them back to them for adjustment, twice, until they finally got it where I wanted it. Even then, I ended up finishing the setup by adjusting some of the pads myself until they worked just right for me.
In addition, given how these clarinets are made, you are probably best to wait until the first overhaul until you start to address any intonation issues that would involve altering the tone holes or bore. The reason for this is the Germans, at least Wurlitzer, does not make a clarinet to play it's best out of the box when brand new. You should take into account that Wurlitzer and others apply lacquer inside the bore and all the tone holes when it is new. They do this to make sure that the wood breaks in very slowly to the moisture. Over a period of time, say one to two years or more, depending on how much you play, the lacquer will mostly wear off from use. When the clarinet is then sent in for the first major overhaul, they will remove the last of this lacquer and then repolish the bore. I have been told that this can also result in them having to retune the clarinet to take into account the changes they make to the bore when removing this lacquer. That is why whatever tuning you have when new, will most likely change after the first overhaul anyway. It is only then, after this first overhaul that the clarinet will loose some of the playing resistance and begin to reveal what it's true sound will be.
This may come as a surprise to many of you, but Wurlitzer and other German makers simply do things the old fashioned way in some respects. At first I thought this was silly that I would have to wait until this first overhaul just to know how well my clarinet would play, but I can't argue with the results. Only those of you that have bought new Wurlitzer's and been through that first major overhaul will understand what I am talking about. The sound is clearer, the response better and with less resistance. Yes, there are still some tuning issues with the sharpness in the left hand clarion on my Bb, but not as bad as before the overhaul. The clarinet seems to play more evenly also from note to note, register to register. I do see the fruit of their work.
I don't think this method would work well in as mass produced market like the big three French makers. Can you imagine buying a new Buffet and being told it would take one to two years to break in before you would know how good it will sound and play, and by the way, the clarinet will play with quite a bit of resistance until then. Yes, it is true that French clarinets also need to be broken in and I have broken in many, but nothing like this.
So my advice is to at least have the first major overhaul done by Wurlitzer before deciding to seek tuning help somewhere else. It just may be possible that your clarinet will come back from that overhaul with better tuning simply from the work that is performed to remove the lacquer in the bore and tone holes. If it still is not to your liking, then send it back or consult another specialist at that point. At least you will know the problem is not the result of all that lacquer in the tone holes and bore and you are finally down to the real wood.
Tom Henson
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Author: rtaylor
Date: 2008-05-27 19:59
One additional recording to note is Karl Leister playing on Wurlitzer 100s and Hans Rudolph Stalder from Switzerland playing on Buffets doing Mozart arranged duets. It's a Jecko Disco recording from the late 1970's.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2008-05-28 13:10
I really enjoyed reading this post however feel that the Buffet R13 has just as many intonation quirks as any of the Wurlitzer clarinets on the market. I think most clarinet players settle on a model for it's timbral quality.
The German and Austrian system clarinets have a unique tone all on their own..it is a very specail sound and like any acoustical set up will have many draw backs. Most orchestral players in German speaking countries are careful to have their orchestral section matched in terms of models and even mouthpieces.
The Berlin Phil still has a complet set of matched Wurlitzers from the 70s which Herbert von Karajan bought for them. So when one note is not great on one clarinet it is the same on the other instruments in the section.
Harold Wright always expressed frustation with the tuning of the clarinet in general but I never heard him play out of tune..he always said alot of tuning issues begin in the brain.
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Author: kenb
Date: 2008-05-28 21:18
Hi Robert,
You mentioned that you're playing a Zeretzke-faced Wurlitzer mp. I've seen 'Zeretske bahn' mentioned a number of times on German sites, can you give us a little more info?
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Author: rtaylor
Date: 2008-05-28 21:31
Hi Kenb,
From what I know about Zeretzke, he is a maker and player in Berlin, located in the Potsdam suburb. He takes Wurlitzer mouthpieces and puts his own facing on them. I don't know the numbers as to length or tip opening. My guess is that they are in the neighborhood of about 0.97mm tip and around a 25mm or 26mm in length. Typically they are setup for use with Vandoren Whitemaster 2 1/2 reeds. I use size 3. I think the sound is a little fuller. Like any hand finished mouthpiece, they are somewhat different from each other. Zeretzke uses the Wurlitzer k 4 *, which starts out as a 0.90mm tip and 25.6mm length, as a blank and then refaces them. He does nothing to the chamber that I'm aware of. Wurlitzer will send out some of these for trial but the demand is high so often you can only choose from one or two.
I was lucky in that I was at Wurlitzer in Neustadt back in 2005 and Franz-Ulrich Wurlitzer was there to help me. I was able to try 10 mouthpieces! A staggering amount so I consider myself lucky in that regard.
Hope this helps.
Robert
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Author: Menendez
Date: 2008-12-31 13:32
Hi again, after a lot of months...
I rescue the topic because yesterday I had the opportunity to try some Seggelke clarinets, during a presentation by Jochen Seggelke in Xátiva (Valencia - Spain).
I tried the Seggelke Reform Boehm Model 3000 Bb, and sounded like a dream, with an excellent pitch, except two notes (G# left hand in upper register and G throat tone, were a little sharp), but nothing that could not be solved easily with fingers or a little changes in the embochure.
I checked the intonation with a tuner, and the most of notes were in the center. In the left hand, upper register, all right, and little changes in the mouth did not produce drastic changes in pitch as the Wurlitzer RB clarinets. The mouthpiece I played with was the Willscher WF3000, and sound flowed very easily, with a rich tune and excellent intonation in all registers. I have now in mind to sell my set of Wurlitzers xD...
I also tried the Seggelke Model 1000 (french bore and fingering), and it sounded great (but not so much as the Reform Boehm or German Seggelke). I not saw appreciable differences in sound comparing with a Tosca, for example... but it is much more expensive, so I think this clarinet will not have much acceptance.
Finally I asked Jochen Seggelke if it is possible to solve the intonation problems in the Wurlitzer RB. He said me that it is possible to help much to improve the intonation, but not solve them at all. He invited me to go to his workshop in Bamberg to improve the intonation in my Wurlitzers. He said that in Wurlitzer are not worry about pitch work... they simply make the clarinets and say to the client: "Work them".
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-12-31 14:29
I think from what I've heard and so on that intonation issues on reform Boehm has lot to do with the fact that it's very different to play on it than the standard French instruments. I mean it took my clarinet teacher who plays professionally over a summertime to change from Yamaha CX instrument to Selmer Signature. When the clarinetist in the Icelandic symphony orchestra who all play Buffet clarinets need a new instrument they just schedule a time in the Buffet firm and choose a instrument which they then buy from a retailer in Paris. I mean It takes time to change from R-13 to Signature which not all people want to spend their time on. Although it might be the instrument it's most likely that it's just another instrument(I use different fingerings for the high notes on my A than on my Bb for example) and it's a new mouthpiece and reed combination. I was once told that to change from Buffet to Würlitzer Reform Boehm takes about 2 years and to change from Buffet to German system Würlitzer would take much longer time.
When I tried out some Buffet clarinets in 2005 along with Selmer St Louis and Leblanc Opus II I thought that the Selmer blew much like Buffet and somewhere between R-13 and Festival but lacked resonance. Then I tried the Opus II and it greatly lacked projection for my setup. And I thought that I would rather get a instrument with focused sound and projection(fairly free blowing) and then maybe later in life set on new mouthpiece/reed combination if I would desire so(adjust the resistance there and not having it in the instrument).
My point is just that for me chancing mouthpiece/reed combination takes me longer time to adjust to in most cases than changing instrument type/brand
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Author: Lam
Date: 2009-01-04 12:42
Hi Menendez,
Would you mind telling me where did you buy the Wenzel Fuchs 3000 mouthpiece? I am very interested in A.Willscher mouthpiece, but I do not know where to buy it.
Thank you very much in advance for the info!
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Author: Lam
Date: 2009-01-05 12:26
Thanks a lot skygardener.
But I could not find the model Wenzel fuchs 3000 in this page, they only list a few AW model mouthpieces, is there any way that I can get a catalogue of all the Willscher mouthpieces?
Thanks !
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Author: Menendez
Date: 2009-01-05 13:55
Hello Lam,
You have to order this model directly to Willscher, because it is a special facing from Wenzel Fuchs.
When i ordered this mouthpiece I wrote to this mail:
info@aw-reeds.de
All you have to do is to say him you want the Willscher WF 3000 mouthpiece to play with (your clarinet: Wurlitzer, Kraus, Yamaha... etc.).
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Author: Tom Henson
Date: 2009-01-07 16:51
Hello Menedez,
I have been so busy lately that I have not had time to follow up with you on your tuning issues.
Last I heard was you were sending them back to Wurlitzer to work on them. Did you do this and did Wurlitzer make any improvements to the tuning?
I have talked with a couple of people about the Segelke Reform Boehm clarinets and generally heard good things about them. Their single biggest drawback, and one that I can not overlook, is that they do not have a connected bridge key between the upper and lower joints like the French clarinets, and all other Reform Boehm systems. This means it is not possible to use a forked finger for Eb & Bb, although you can use the alternate fingering with just the left hand.
In general, I have acknowledged that Wurlitzer clarinets can play high in the left hand in the clarion register, mainly the A, B, and C. Both my Bb and A have this tendency, but the A less so. Wurlitzer was able to improve my Bb, but next time I send it in for an overhaul I will have them do a little more work on this. Better to make tuning adjustments a little at a time than all at once. Once you go too far, it is ruined.
I also believe that every clarinet made, regardless of the type of system has some tuning issues simply because of the compromises that must be made when designing them. There is no doubt that some clarinets play in tune better than others and Wurlitzer is no exception to this statement. That is why you have to play 50 R13's to find a really good one. But when you do, it is very good.
Of all the professional players that I have talked to who do play on the Wurlitzer Reform Boehm clarinets, all have told me they choose it in spite of the tuning issues simply because of the sound. I choose this system for the same reason and would do it again, even knowing more now than I did when I first bought them.
I will say again, that changing from a French clarinet (R13) to the Wurlitzer Reform Boehm has been the single hardest thing I have ever had to do clarinet wise in my life. Especially given that there are few people who are qualified to help someone with this difficult task.
Also, I have never played a clarinet system that is so incredibly sensitive to the mouthpiece/reed that is used. Both from a tuning standpoint as well as the character of the sound itself in different registers.
I believe that one of the biggest things that make the French system so popular (and easier to play) is the way the bore and tone holes are designed. There is so much flexibility in the bore characteristics on a French system that it makes it the perfect choice for Jazz especially. I also believe that a French bore clarinet is much more forgiving in how you play it and the reed and mouthpiece that you use. It is amazing just how a French clarinet can be a little out of adjustment and yet still quite playable.
This is not true for the Reform Boehm clarinets. Especially the Wurlitzer model 185 with it's very complex key system. In my personal experience of working on many R13 clarinets and now my Wurlitzer model 185's, it is completely different in how you work on them. Yes, replacing a pad is still the same along with certain other things, but that is where it ends. The keywork on these clarinets is so complex as to boggle the mind. On the bottom joint there are several adjusting screws that affect as many as 9 different tone holes with a single adjustment screw. I would caution anyone that has these clarinets from just getting out a screwdriver and making changes from the factory settings. I can say that once you make changes in the adjustment screws then you can start to have all kinds of tuning issues as well as voicing problems. I learned this the hard way, believe me.
Following up on this, this is the other problem with owning these clarinets. There are very few people outside of the factories where they are made who really understand and know how to properly setup and adjust these clarinets. Like I said, there are several adjustment screws on the bottom joint that affect many different tone holes. Once you change one, you find that it throws off the others and then you adjust more and more and more. Finally, you end up with a clarinet that does not want to play.
I would compare working on the Wurlitzer 185 Reform Boehm clarinets to working on an Oboe for the complexity of the keywork if not even more.
Getting back to the tuning issues that have been discussed here, I do agree that Wurlitzer has some issues. I have stated that before. I also have said that other makers do make good Reform Boehm clarinets that play generally better in tune. I have a set from Leitner & Kraus that have excellent intonation. Segelke is another maker that is very well respected. However, I have played on Wurlitzer Reform Boehm clarinets that did play very well in tune, so to make a general statement that they don't spend enough time on the tuning when they make them is simply not true in my experience. This sounds more like a sales pitch than someone who has first hand knowledge.
There could be many reasons why Wurlitzer Reform Boehm clarinets play sharp in the left hand vs. other brands, but I doubt it has anything to do with the quality of workmanship in general. In my first hand experience, Wurlitzer clarinets are still made to a higher finish level than the other German makers of these clarinets. That is another reason they are still considered by most people in the know to be the best. If anyone has every gone to their workshop and seen how these clarinets are made they would probably agree that Wurlitzer is passionate about making high quality clarinets, and they hold fast to their own concept of how a clarinet should play and sound. Wurlitzer clarinets are not made for the masses.
My Leitner & Kraus set cost less money, but it is also made to a lower fit and finish standard because of the lower cost. To be honest, my Bb from them was not even playable when I first got it because some of the keys were fitted so tight they would not even move. Granted, this could have been the wood adjusting to a new climate, but I had to send my Bb back to them 3 times before it was usable on the level that I wanted. This was certainly not so with my Wurlitzer clarinets whose keywork was setup to the highest level I have ever seen with the exception of Morrie Backun.
My Wurlitzer A clarinet keywork setup is the best I have ever seen of any clarinet I have held in my hands. It would be the equivalent of the best Morrie Backun or even Hans Moennig could do given their skill and knowledge. The quality of the keys, how they are made, shaped, feel, spring tension and reaction, and key location, tells me that whoever made this clarinet was indeed a "master" craftsman. It is simply a joy to play and the sound is just amazing. Yes, it plays a little sharp in the left hand clarion register, but I can adjust enough to get it well in tune.
I had earlier compared the sound to that of Wenzel Fuchs' A clarinet and I stand by that remark. Yes, he plays on an Ohler system, so you could say you are comparing apples and oranges, but the sound is the same and this is another goal of Wurlitzer, to make Reform Boehm clarinets that sound close to what the Ohler sound like, but with a French key system. I would say they are very close in that respect.
Tom Henson
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Author: rtaylor
Date: 2009-01-07 17:39
Just want to echo what Tom Henson has said. Without exception, his descriptions and experiences with using the Wurlitzer RB clarinets and switching to RB from traditional french clarinets is right on the money. I have gone through this cycle myself and have found it frustrating at times, but end result is just glorious in my opinion. My instrument situation was helped by Karl Leister selecting the instrumnets for me from a group of three sets and play tested in the Berlin Philharmonie. I had final say of course but they were a great starting point for this RB adventure...
If anyone is reading this for the first time and contemplating the purchase of an RB clarinet, Wurlitzer or otherwise, this thread will give you a great deal of insight.
The Wurlitzer family has always treated me with a great deal
of respect and professionalism in their work. For anyone to suggest that they compromise their instruments is simply misinformed. Herr Segelke's statement "Wurlitzer are not worry about pitch work... they simply make the clarinets and say to the client: "Work them".".. is unfortunatley in error.
Rob Taylor
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2009-01-07 20:11
Thank you Menendez for sharing your impressions about Seggelke´s clarinets, which was very interesting.
I would also like to fulfill my previous post here on the list, about the outcome of the re-repair of my Wurlitzer 187-set (see my previous posts).
THE RESULTS OF MY LAST REPAIR
When receiving the instruments for the last time, I could immediately see with a naked eye that several of the tone-holes had been treated with a black, shiny coating. The main problem I had was sharp left hand notes in the upper register on my A-clarinet, with C3 being the sharpest one (at most about 5-6 Hz or 20 cent). At the same time the corresponding F1 in the low register was good in tune.
After this last treatment all the left hand notes in the upper register was in very good tune, except that C3 – which now was about 2 Hz/8 cent flat! Had I joined the tuning process personally, also that C3 would without a doubt have been properly tuned (Robert here above who got his instruments in very good tune was joining the process personally). Nevertheless, I chose a suitable file, gathered some courage and just widened that C3 tone hole a little bit by myself until it also came in level with the other notes.
Thus so far so good – but all the corresponding left hand notes in the low register had now turned more or less flat. Actually they had been flattened quite exactly as much as the notes in the upper register, note by note. This shouldn't of course come as a surprise, but shows just that there are hardly any miraculous solutions to these problems. However, as I also told Wurlitzer, if I have to choose, then I would prefer a well tuned upper register since those notes are both more frequent and more audible than those in the low register. Anyway, the statement of the low register is of course far from satisfying, but probably it's just not possible to get both registers in good tune on this instrument. However, I think that those of you that have sharp notes in both registers should be able to get your instruments adjusted to full satisfaction at your next repair by Wurlitzer.
As told before, I have no problems with the C3/F1-notes on my Bb-clarinet (OK, the F1 is slightly flat but within an acceptable range), and also the rest of the left hand upper notes has all the time been in good tune –– so it still puzzles me why the A-clarinet is so different. By the way, these instruments from 2002 has the older bore-design measuring 14,8 mm at the top of the upper joint, and 14,5 mm at the bottom (on both the Bb- and A-clarinets).
MOUTHPIECES
Wurlitzer kindly arranged three mouthpieces for trial for me, which had been recommended by others here on the list: The Wurlitzer N1 for its sound (Tom wrote: "Perhaps the best sounding mouthpiece of all that I tested with the Wurlitzer clarinets"), and the Wurlitzer P4 for its tuning properties. The third one was the Zeretzke K4*. Thus I now have personal experience from Wurlitzer M4, M5, N1, P4, Zeretzke K4* and Viotto N1+2.
My conclusion is that I agree 100% with Tom, concerning the Wurlitzer N1: Excellent sound, and clearly the best-sounding one of those that I have tested (I'm grateful to you Tom, for your recommendation)! Tuning-wise I found the M4 as probably the best one, but the differences compared with the N1 aren't significant (the differences are more pronounced in the highest register, above c3, but not all of those differences are actually bad). Thus the Wurlitzer N1 is now the mp I play on, together with my Bb-clarinet.
However, the picture concerning my A-clarinet is quite different: Here I actually prefer the Viotto N1+2, mainly sound-wise. Compared with the Wurlitzer N1, the Viotto produces less "hissing-noise" (the kind of sound typical to a bad Bb1), as can be heard especially on the B1- and Bb1-notes. Also concerning the overall sound on the A-clarinet, I prefer the Viotto. Tuning-wise the M4 is the best one also together with the A-clarinet (after this last repair), but not with any remarkable advantages over the Viotto.
For me the Zeretzke K4* was quite disappointing: Overall a lot of "hissing-noise", and even more so on the A-clarinet than the B-clarinet. But of course, this concerns my mouth and my setup – which may differ a lot from someone else's.
FINGERINGS
Here comes also an extended list of special fingerings I'm using or have used (including those mentioned earlier), from low to high, and this time up to C#4:
D#1, sharpening it: Normal D#1 fingering + c#1-key.
E1, sharpening it: E1 fingering + lh3 + d#1-side key + c#1-key.
F1, sharpening it: F1 fingering + d#1-key (right or left).
E2, sharpening it: E2 fingering + d#2-key + c2-key
F2, sharpening it: F2 fingering + d#2-key
A2, flattening it: A2 fingering + g#2-key + rh1 + rh3
B2, flattening it: B2 fingering + g#2-key + a#2-key + rh3 + d#2-key (a really complicated one!)
Bb2, flattening it: Bb2 fingering + rh2 and/or rh3 (perhaps also the d#2-key, for more brightness)
Bb2, forked fingering, flattening it: Forked Bb2 + rh3 + d#2-key
C3, flattening it: C3 fingering + lh3 + g#2-key
Hereafter, I use the following system of notating the fingerings: RT 123/123, where R stands for register key, T for thumb, first 123 means lh fingers, and last 123 means rh fingers. - = open hole.
F#3, sharpening the normal RT -2-/---d#2 fingering: Add the key for rh3 (the chromatic b/f#2-key). If needed, the rh trill-key for Bb1 can be added.
F#3, an excellent substitute for the RT 12-/123d#2 fingering (which goes all too sharp): Substitute the d#2-key with the g#2-key (and all the qualities of the the first fingering remains, but now in tune!)
G3, for flattening the normal RT -2-/12-d#2 fingering: As above, substitute the d#2-key with the g#2-key (also a very reliable fingering, really easy to hit also in ppp).
G3, another alternative: RT -23/12-d#2 (may still be sharp, and not at all as reliable as the former)
G#3: RT g#1 -2-/1--d#2 (in good tune, but clumsy in certain passages)
G#3: RT ---a#2/---d#2 (may be flat, but it's a smooth one)
G#3: RT ---/1--d#2 (probably sharp, but also a smooth one)
A3: RT 123/---d#2
A#3: RT -2-g#2/---d#2
A#3: RT g#1 -2-/---d#2 (equivalent of the former, but suites certain passages better)
B3: RT -2-g#2/12-d#2
B3: RT g#1 -2-/12-d#2 (equivalent of the former, but suites certain passages better)
C4: RT ---g#2/1--d#2 (I'm not fully satisfied with this, but I have no better alternative for now. If flat, releasing the d#2-key will sharpen it)
C4: RT g#1 ---/1--d#2 (equivalent of the former)
C#4: RT ---/---d#2 (I'm not fully satisfied with this either, but I have no better alternative)
Comments: The sharpening of the F1 is needed only on my A-clarinet, and the sharpening of E2 and F2 is no longer needed after my last repair. On the A-clarinet, I omit the d#2-key on all the notes above C3, which otherwise goes sharp.
As I have told before, it may be that these suggestions doesn't work as well on the 185 model, than on my 187.
Micke Isotalo
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Author: rtaylor
Date: 2009-01-07 20:54
Great write-up Micke on the issues you had with your instrumnets.
The Zeretzkes are very inconsistent. I was able to try about ten and found a good one for me. As everybody probably knows on this BB, any hand finished item, mouthpiece etc can vary widely.
RT
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Author: Menendez
Date: 2009-01-07 21:34
Well,
I did not want to generate controversy by mentioning the statements of Herr Seggelke. Perhaps he was too explicit, but what he meant is that Wurlitzer makes the clarinets, and is the clarinetist who must adapt to them 100%.
Above all, I must say that I have not yet sent my clarinets to Wurlitzer, because the recommendations of those who played with Wurlitzer and repairmans are that I have to take enough time to adapt to my clarinets. After that, I will see if it is necessary to do some little modifications.
After a year playing them, I find that LH C is very erratic and difficult to pitch. However, strangely, I have heard in several recordings and the intonation is right. The other two notes I find sharp are G/G#, (G# is a nightmare, even using the fingers of the right hand to low pitch and modifying a lot my embochure, is still sharp). It is curious, but hearing my recordings I've found a new note that is sharp: D in right hand.
The most important problems I have is with Bb clarinet, not so much with my A clarinet, but I improve gradually.
Finally, I would like to say that in that presentation of Seggelke clarinets there were some clarinetists who were very happy with his Wurlitzer, despite having to go looking for pitch in some notes. One of them said: "Wurlitzer are the clarinets of my life". :-D
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Author: Tom Henson
Date: 2009-01-07 21:57
Hello Micke,
I am happy to hear that there is some improvement, but understand and agree with you that lowering the pitch in the upper register will also have a corresponding effect on the 12th below it.
This is, in fact, the same issue many clarinets have, regardless if it is French, German, or whatever.
Tuning the 12th is problematic for everyone. Wurlitzer clarinets have what is called "Wide 12th's" in the left hand. Low or just right on the bottom 12th but high on the top. Some clarinets (not Wurlitzer) can be just the opposite. Low on the top and high on the bottom. That would be narrow 12th's. Wide 12th's is more common though.
I believe that Wurlitzer should also consider the barrel as well when working on the tuning. Perhaps they do. I know for a fact that those that make custom barrels on this list have successfully address wide 12ths with just the barrel, or a combination of barrel, mouthpiece, and clarinet work when it is really bad.
Another observation is that Wurlitzer uses shorter barrels on their Reform Boehm clarinets because the upper joint is longer than on a French clarinet. Other RB clarinets also have the short barrels as well as Ohler clarinets. However, that means that there is less bore length in the barrel to work with. I would have to ask someone that makes barrels whether this makes it harder to tune or not.
I know that Morrie Backun does make barrels for these clarinets and I had the opportunity to try some out for a while. However, I was new to them at that time, so I am can not say if they helped or not. I was only ask to try them out, so it was not a case where I had asked to have them made in order to fix an intonation issue. Regardless, it would not be wise to order these unless you had the chance to see him in person. He does not stock these and the chances that he gets it right the first time without having the clarinet in his hands is slim.
Another thing to keep in mind with the Reform Boehm clarinets is that the top of the upper joint is critical in how it works together with the shorter barrel, more so than on the French clarinets. This would explain, in my mind, why they are so sensitive to different mouthpiece/reed combinations.
As an example of what can be done with this issue, Leitner & Kraus found a way around this very problem by putting the tenon from the top of the upper joint onto the bottom of the barrel, which makes the bore of the barrels longer. The top of the upper joint simply has a socket now. This is the set that I have from them and the intonation on these is excellent. The barrel that I use with both L&K clarinets is 65.5 mm in length, almost the same length as a standard French barrel.
Leitner & Kraus also told me this allows them to change the voicing of the clarinets as well by changing the bore in the barrel. I can't wait to visit their workshops and try different barrels out to see if this is true. I'm pretty happy with the ones I have, but they may have some I will like even better.
I would be happy to e-mail a picture of this to anyone that wants by contacting me directly.
One last thing. Micke also said that he found it better to use a differnt mouthpeice for the Bb and A. I can confirm this is true of me also. I use the N1 on my Bb. There are several mouthpieces I like with my A. I like my Viotto N1+2, Wurlitzer P4, Leitner & Kraus T1 and a Leitner & Kraus F10.
Tom Henson
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Author: Lam
Date: 2009-01-08 13:17
Hi Menendez,
Thanks so much for the info, I will send them an email to buy the Wenzel fuchs 3000.
By the way, do you know approximately the tip opening and length of the facing of it
and which reed you would recommend to use with it ? Thanks a lot !.
To Tom,
I am playing an oehler clarinet, its only a R.keilwerth clarinet. But I agree with you that changing the barrel does affect the 12th. When I am using a 59 barrel which has an inverted cone (15mm upper and 14.85 under), the 12th is nightmare, d1 and a3 is about 30 cents different.
After I change a barrel with a wider bore (another stock barrel, I don't understand why they make 2 barrels with so different bore, this one is
15.2 or 15.3 bore straight cone throughout) and the wide
12th is reduced a little bit (about 6 to 10 cents)
Anyway its just a case for oehler, but it leads me to believe that the shape of bore of the barrel affect the 12th to some extent.
I have seen in the upper thread your photo of Soloist L&K V-model, it is a really a great invention. I saw in the website of L&K said that by
only changing the barrel , that sound will be different, and would you mind telling me how the sound changes? Thanks !
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Author: Menendez
Date: 2009-01-09 13:54
Hello Lam,
Now I have no tools at hand to measure the length of the table, but the tip opening is about 0.75.
With this mouthpiece I use Xilema Reeds, Viena model, and C or C+ strength, but there are a lot of players using D or E (retouched) with this mouthpiece. But you can try with AW Reeds or PL too.
Post Edited (2009-01-09 13:57)
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Author: Tom Henson
Date: 2009-01-10 01:45
Hello Lam,
Sorry for the delayed response as I have been quite busy at work.
Regarding the sound or voicing changes that can be done with different barrels on the Leitner & Kraus V-420 system I have little experience to make any conclusions.
The reason is I did not have the opportunity to go to their workshop to pick the clarinets up and thus have not tried any other barrels than was shipped with them. I do have 6 barrels that they shipped because I wanted to make sure that I had a wide range of tuning possible. So I have short barrels for A444 down to longer ones for A440. It is my belief that they tried to match the sound on these barrels to make them similar and that would make sense to me.
I have read several posts on a German forum that allude to the different sounds depending on the barrel used. I have asked them what changes can be expected from using different barrels, but I think something got lost in the translation in their English. They simply said they can make different sounds. I hope to visit their workshop in the next year so I can see for myself.
On another note (no pun intended), I want to follow up on the comment that Herr Segelke made regarding Wurlitzer clarinets because I think I understand what he was trying to say.
As I had said before regarding the quality of workmanship, Wurlitzer is passionate about making the best clarinets that they can. They do, however, hold fast to their own idea of sound and how a clarinet should play.
It is entirely true that when Wurlitzer hands you your new clarinet that you have to find the soul of that instrument. You have to learn to play it, not the other way around. Bernd Wurlitzer once told me that I needed to make my clarinet my own. This was very early on when I first got my Bb. At the time, I did not understand what he meant.
If you consider that every single Reform Boehm clarinet made today is based upon the one that Fritz Wurlitzer designed over 50 years ago, then you understand that Wurlitzer is the source while all the others are derivatives. This is not meant to say that they others are not good, but if you want one that holds to the original design concept then you go to Wurlitzer.
Some may see the attitude of Wurlitzer as being arrogant or aloof, but I see it as a tremendous sense of pride in their workmanship. They hand you the instrument with pride, but then you have to find the soul of it on your own. They make it, but you have to learn how to play it. This is what Herr Segelke meant. This is a tradition that Wurlitzer still holds today.
Some of the newer German makers have a desire to make a product that can be marketed to the masses and have a wider acceptance, so they can not afford to make a clarinet that is too unique for lack of a better word. I would make the comparison of Porsche who some say still understands how to make a pure sports car, even as more modern manufacturing techniques have come. They still find a way to build in that special something that holds fast to the tradition of their heritage. Some who own them say they have a soul that is unique compared to other car brands.
This is exactly what Wurlitzer gives you. They take the wood and make each clarinet to the best they can and then give it to you. It is then up to you to find that soul and make it your own. Learn how to get the most from it.
This may sound silly, but think about the fact that every high end clarinet made, French included, is unique in some way or another. Clarinets that are mass produced on an assembly line are made by computers to the same specs day in and day out. This is a good thing, but it does not take into account the living nature of the wood. That is why you can play 20 R-13's in a row and every single one will play and sound a little different. This is even true of German clarinets as well, but to a much, much lesser degree. There is so much more consistency sound wise.
That is why on a mass produced clarinet one will only bring out the best when it is properly set up by hand. It takes a highly skilled master craftsman to work the wood, and all systems into a finely balanced harmony of a musical machine.
This is why no professional today would buy a new mass produced clarinet without having their favorite technician work their magic on it.
In my opinion, it takes someone with manufacturing & design knowledge to understand enough about what they have in their hands to bring out the absolute best in a clarinet. Morrie Backun is certainly one of those and there are more like him out there today. In the past, Hans Moennig was the absolute recognized best at working on R-13's. Buffet even came to him when they needed help in fixing design issues on the R-13. But you must remember that Hans was first a woodwind maker from Germany. I can tell you that the R-13's that Hans worked on had more in common with German clarinets than French. Robert Marcellus is one example, in particular. But that is another story.
So there is a very big difference in someone that replaces pads and someone that manufactures and designs them for a living in what they can bring out. Sometimes they are both. Most technicians would probably fall somewhere in between.
These are the people who are sought out and who have a waiting list a mile long to have clarinets worked on, and for good reason. I call these types of technicians "finishers". They take over where the factory left off and finish the clarinet to the best it will play. Of course, they can only do so much given what has been given to them to work with. Sometimes the result is amazing, and sometimes it is just so so. It all depends on the clarinet itself.
The only problem with this formula is that you first manufacture the clarinet to the same exacting standards blank after blank after blank and then after the clarinet is sold you find out that one piece of wood did not react the same way as another and the end result is a clarinet that may be mis-matched in some way. This type of manufacturing process does not take the living nature of wood into account to a very great degree. Wouldn't it be better if the person making the clarinet was also the one that "finished" it?
Now were are talking about the smaller custom makers like Rossi, Eaton, and a few more that exist today. The thing that amazed me in doing research on custom clarinet makers is that, while there are now more custom makers of French clarinets than ever before, there are still 5 times that amount just in Germany alone that make both the Ohler and Reform Boehm systems. This does not even take into account more in Austria.
These workshops are run by families that go back generations and some of them have been in business over 100 years. The depth of skill and knowledge that has been passed down from one generation to another through the apprentice concept is second to none. There is nothing that they do by accident, and someone picking up a Wurlitzer clarinet for the first time simply would not understand everything that went into it. I know I still don't, but every day I learn more.
Example, I learned that Wurlitzer is so precise in the setup of the pads that they have a way of allowing a small amount of air leaks in order to balance the bore resistance. This results in more resonance and a subtle difference in sound. I have experimented with using the absolute bottle stopper approach on my Bb Wurlitzer and it simply did not work. It then sounded just like a French clarinet and with a bright, edgy sound. It had lost the resonance to a degree. When I realized what had been lost, I had to pay Wurlitzer to put it back to they way it was. Lesson learned.
In Germany, there are actually technical schools where you can get a degree in woodwind design and manufacturing. I am not aware of any here in the US, but they may exist. There are also different skill levels taught and the highest is to become a "master" maker which takes some years. It would easily be the equivalent of a full university degree and can take years to get.
Keep in mind at places like Wurlitzer, that you don't even get in the door as a finisher unless you first have a master maker's degree or the equivalent in long years at the job from another highly respected maker. Yes, they still use apprentices to shape and cut the blanks and any other job that is done on a CNC type machine where the chance of mistakes is very slim. But only the masters are allowed to do the actual setups and the tuning of the clarinet.
How many of you have see the TV series called American Chopper? This is a reality TV program that takes you through the design and building of a custom made motorcycle. Every single piece of metal that goes into the making is custom made and hand fit. They first manufacture all the parts and then do a test fitting. This is called a mock up. Once all of the parts have been perfectly fitted, then they take the whole thing apart again and they are sent out for plating or painting. Only then is the final assembly done. This is exactly how a Wurlitzer clarinet is made to a very great degree. The master makes the keys or finishes them and then hand fits them to the clarinet. Once all keys have been perfectly fitted, they are then sent out to be plated. Wurlitzer, like most of the German makers, uses silver plating that is easily 2-3 times as thick as what you would find on any mass manufactured clarinet. The keys then have to be refitted to the clarinet to take the plating into account because it is so thick.
The wood is shaped and bored using CNC machines for their accuracy, but every other single piece is hand made. Even the keys are made from blank stampings of German silver. The blanks are simply flat bars that are then bent, formed, soldered, and shaped using hand tools to make each and every key. Even the screws start out as simply a long steel rod. They are cut, hand threaded, and hand ground to fit exactly each key. Each spring is cut from steel wire and then hand shaped, fitted, and then hand blued to obtain just the right spring action and resistance.
Each clarinet that Wurlitzer makes is so unique, that all the keys have a number hand scribed into them so that when the clarinet goes back to the workshop for an overhaul they do not mix up the keys with another one. They are fitted that exact. When you order a set of clarinets from one of these makers, they make sure that the same person does the finishing on both so that they are as identical as possible. No wonder these clarinets cost a small fortune. Wurlitzer told me that each model 185 clarinet takes a little over 100 man hours to make. How many hours does it take to make an R-13. Twenty maybe?
In the end, regardless of the maker's stamp on the clarinet, it is still a unique piece of work that came from the hands on the one person finishing it. How well it plays and sounds will be dependent on many things like quality of materials and such, but it will still be unique.
Tom Henson
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2009-06-12 21:30
As this is such a long thread about intonation problems I would like to add a small positive contribution about the Wurlitzer RB clarinets.
Like Menendez I used to play Buffet RC. Since last week I play Wurlitzer RB.
The first time I tested the Wurlitzers I was really surprised that people can actually play these instruments in tune! Indeed, very high pitch in the left hand clarion. On that moment, it seemed impossible to correct this.
But now, after a week of playing I can play in tune without thinking about making corrections. Of course it would take some more time than a week to really stabilize everything.
What problably helps is that I play the Viotto N1 +2 mouthpiece already on the RC for years. So, I am really used to the german mouthpiece and reeds.
Furthermore you have to play softer reeds. On RC I used Vandoren White Master 3 - 3.5 reeds, on RB I use 2.5 - 3. Of course this means you have to play with a more relaxed embouchure. Any way of 'biting' or pinching will have a negative effect on pitch. For me this embouchure feels more 'natural' than on the buffet.
I am really impressed by the sound of the RB, it is so colourful and with lots of power. I now realize how hard I have worked on the RC to get a beautiful tone with enough power. With the RB I've got plenty of both.
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Author: Fraeulein Klarinette
Date: 2009-06-13 17:47
Lam: Wenzel plays Peter Leuthner Weiner Professional on the Willscher mouthpiece. This model is not sorted into strengths and is very hard but it works very well with the Viennese facing. Keilwerth clarinet may have a different bore from AW mouthpiece. Don't you have problems playing German clarinets (A=446Hz) in HK where the standard pitch is A=440Hz? Well, I do.
Oh FYI, Wenzel now plays Legere German cut on a mouthpiece designed especially for Legere reeds. The whole clarinet of Berlin Phil is playing plastic reeds now.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-06-13 18:11
Lam-"By the way, do you know approximately the tip opening and length of the facing of it and which reed you would recommend to use with it ?"
Fraeulein Klarinette- "Oh FYI, Wenzel now plays Legere German cut on a mouthpiece designed especially for Legere reeds. The whole clarinet of Berlin Phil is playing plastic reeds now."
-
I don't know about now, but two years ago at a festival I recall Wenzel was using an AW mouthpiece and AW reeds. Maybe I misremember.
Post Edited (2009-06-14 11:42)
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-06-13 21:07
Oh FYI, Wenzel now plays Legere German cut on a mouthpiece designed especially for Legere reeds. The whole clarinet of Berlin Phil is playing plastic reeds now.
You have GOT to be joking.
You are joking, aren't you?
____________________________
EDIT - excuse my French but OMFG:
http://www.legere.com/index.php?page=21
Post Edited (2009-06-13 21:13)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-06-14 01:01
The Legere website does not list any BPO clarinetists as one of there players. Now, I understand that Guy Legere does not list each and every person that plays his reeds, but BPO is kind of one of those name you wouldn't want to leave off the list.
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Author: Fraeulein Klarinette
Date: 2009-06-14 06:07
Yeah I was shocked when I heard about this, but when I saw the hard proof.....
For Wenzel + Legere:
http://www.legere.com/index.php?page=21
Wenzel's mouthpiece + Legere combination:
http://www.playnick.com/index.php?lang=de&id=12&cmd=s1
Scroll down and you will see the rest of the BPO group using Legere+NICK: http://www.playnick.com/index.php?id=5&lang=de&cmd=s
As for the pre-plastic era, Wenzel showed me his set up at the backstage of the Philharmonie during a rehearsal intermission (that was in 2007). He was then using an AW mouthpiece + PL Wiener Professional..... and he has been using that combination for quite awhile..... but then he might play around with the different brands every now and then.
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-06-14 09:07
So these are the same Berlin Philharmonic clarinettists who wrote an open letter against French-system players being employed in the German Hochschulen.
Playing plastic reeds.
Post Edited (2009-06-14 09:15)
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2009-06-14 10:02
Nothing wrong with plastic reeds. The german cut Legere is not that bad at all.
It is quite common to use Legeres for practicing but also as backup in concerts.
And when a mouthpiece maker decides to adapt mouthpieces for them the result may be superb indeed.
And as the Legeres are not of French origin (like natural cane) I think the BP players just want to exclude the last French part out of their German system ;-)
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-06-14 10:25
Ollie said: **So these are the same Berlin Philharmonic clarinettists who wrote an open letter against French-system players being employed in the German Hochschulen.**
Okay that does it. Because of that statement, I will never ever show any respect to the clarinet section of the BPO!
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-06-14 13:28
The grump I'm experiencing just now has nothing to do with their (stupendous) musical accomplishments of course.
The thing is, I'm fine with the idea of wanting to stick up for playing traditions. (That's the main thrust of the BPO clarinettists' open letter.) And it's clear that the German system is under a certain amount of threat, and it would be a great pity if it went under.
But then there are moments when one asks oneself if what's really happening is actually sticking up for the Spieltradition, or if it's partly also a matter of just keeping outsiders out, not just out of the major orchestras but the Hochschulen. (In other words - out of the nice jobs.) For me this has been one of those moments.
So now we know, anyway, that they don't mind plastic reeds. On the other hand they wouldn't accept a reform-Boehm instrument in the major orchestras so it's not the German bore they're sticking up for either. Is the playing tradition they're defending really all just about a couple of cross-fingerings and all that ridiculous left little finger sliding? ![[right]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie8.gif)
(No, of course it isn't. I'll cool down in a little while. But frankly this has got my goat a bit.)
Post Edited (2009-06-14 13:30)
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-06-14 13:45
I personally couldn’t care less if they play on the old Alberts or Stadler clarinets in the Hochschulen. The German system may be under a threat, but why does it matter?
The French system is a better (or should we say ”faster, easier”) system. I’m fine with Germans and Austrians playing Klosé systems with a German bore and their sound, but them denying young people from other EU countries into the Hochschulen with French bore instruments be utterly dumb. Not only is it dumb but if IIRC, ther is an EU law that forbids racist discrimination. This case is that really!
You ask yourself if they’re sticking up for the Spieltradition or keeping outsiders out; as bad as it sounds, I personally think it’s the latter. I’ve met quite a bunch of Germans and mentioned me playing Selmer and discussed with them and they didn’t show any sign of unhappiness (can we say it like that?). It seems that there are only some black sheep that don’t want loud and ugly playing clarinetists to study or play in their orchestras (j/k!). Others are fine with that.
You mentioned they won’t accept reform-Böhms in the major orchestras: That is even more amazing in my opinion! There are a few places in pieces I’ve heard from recordings where the Müller-playing clarinetist(s) in the BPO have been playing some things that involved a flip to or from the high C [ -x|oxo|ooo ] where a reform-Böhm would have done the trick of making the ”plump” disappear.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-06-14 14:38
Jeroen wrote:
> I think the BP players just want to exclude the last French
> part out of their German system ;-)
Then they should have found a reed made by a company other than Legérè
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-06-14 15:34
Thing is, though, there are certainly French-system students in the Hochschulen - at least so Ralph Manno in Köln tells me. (I was still under the opposite impression until he told me the HS in Köln were wanting to buy a French-system Eb clarinet. I was a little surprised.)
Some of the orchestras have reform-'Boehm' players, or even French-system players - I'm told there's a French-system player in the Dresden Staatskapelle, French-system players even guest in the BPO.
And a heck of a lot of German non-clarinet orchestral musicians don't even like the Oehler (reasons I've heard - it sounds really dodgy blown too hard, and they're so often terribly sharp - to get back somewhere near the thread topic). No wonder some of the Oehler-chauvinists get narky. ![[happy]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley12.gif)
Post Edited (2009-06-14 15:37)
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Author: Lam
Date: 2009-06-14 15:58
Fraulein Klarinette: Its amazing to see someone in Hong Kong playing the German system.
You are no joking, as I saw Wenzel Fuchs is playing a Plastic reed ( I saw that from the Digital concert hall of BPO, so Wenzel is using it now in the BPO concert, with great sound).
Post Edited (2009-06-14 21:09)
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Author: Lam
Date: 2009-06-14 16:15
And there are a lot of Clarinet students in Germany playing French system now. there are a number of students in Sabine Meyer class playing it. Shirly Brill is one of them, playing the RC prestige, with great technique and sound.
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Author: Fraeulein Klarinette
Date: 2009-06-14 16:48
I have never seen that open letter against French-system players... can someone pls post a link or something? I am eager to read the article because from what I saw in Berlin, they players at BPO and the Hochschule are pretty open-minded about Boehm-system. Yes, it's true that the BPO still requires German system for a spot in their orchestra but I have also seen Hollander orchestra (Concertgebouw, if I am not mistaken... but not sure) asking for reform-boehm players only.
In fact, a large portion of students at UdK Berlin and UdK Hanns Eisler Berlin are using Boehm (from my observation). The professor at UdK Berlin Francois Brenda also plays Boehm system. (Although he switched to Vienesse system temporarily when he studied in Austria, he preferred Boehm system.) Last but not least, Bliss, Sabine Mayer's student, also plays Boehm but Sabine likes his playing a lot!
Someone asked Karl Leister during a master class, what he thinks about the difference between the two systems and why he uses this mouthpiece and that. He said, "material is very personal. You cannot copy my sound, I cannot copy yours. I like this system, I like my sound but this is my own personal preference." For what it's worth, Leister himself plays a special wide-facing mouthpiece with Vandoren Rue Lepic and V12.
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-06-14 17:05
Ollie: That’s good to hear, and hopefully the numbers will rise in the future.
I think someone plays a Reform-Klosé in the Oper of Hagen but that’s of course a German-bore instrument, so it doesn’t change much. I’d really like to see a big German (or Austrian, even better!) orchestra with a French-bore instrument played on. The only thing I have seen is a video from 16 years ago with the Junge Philharmonie Köln where the 1st clarinet and the bass clarinet were French. And the JPK isn’t a ”big German orchestra” anways. ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
Fräulein Klarinette: Doesn’t the Bliss play Reform-Böhms now? At least IIRC I saw a picture of Bliss playing a Reform-Böhm, may be wrong though.
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Author: Fraeulein Klarinette
Date: 2009-06-14 17:11
aero145: Bliss may be playing Reform-Boehm..... i am not so sure either!
I have forgotten to mention the fact that Ricardo Morales was invited to sub for a concert of the BPO last year..... For what it's worth (again) he could play Weber Concerto No. 1 on a Wurlitzer (German).... so I heard.
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Author: Lam
Date: 2009-06-14 17:40
Wow, Ricardo rocks !
He will be my idol from now on !
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Author: Menendez
Date: 2009-06-14 18:01
Well guys, I do not want to annoy, but this thread that I started is focused on the Wurlitzer RB clarinets :-).
Jeroen, I must to say that I have problems only with the Bb clarinet, but not with the A clarinet. Actually the problem is that the pitch is very erratic in alto C. Very very very little changes of the embochure results in very important variations in the pitch of this note.
Besides there are several notes in te LH upper register that are high:
- B is sharp, but the down 12th, E note is right.
- B# is sharp (playing with number 7 and 7 bis keys), but the down 12th Eb note is a little flat.
- G is a little sharp, and G# much more sharp. The respectives down 12th notes (C/C#) are sharp and very sharp too, respectively.
After two years with them I have learned to play with them but I have these problems with the Bb clarinet. Maybe the Bb clarinet needs some changes. I will write to Wurlitzer to tell them about this problem.
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-06-14 18:22
Menendez: I’m sorry chap, it’s just so difficult to start this discussion in a new thread as this is not completely a discussion - in a way. Thanks for the tolerance though!
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2009-06-14 19:26
Mark, I thought Legere is based in Canada? But the name is very French indeed.
Menendez, my Bb clarinet is also more flexible in pitch than the A.
The A is clearly more forgiving.
It seems to me that your Bb clarinet has indeed an erratic C''' that may (or may not) be improved by the builder.
It is however no surprise that C''', B'' and Bb'' are high.
I think most Wurlitzer RB clarinets have a rather high pitched LH upper register.
With a proper embouchure this doesn't have to be a problem and you can live with it. If you cannot adapt to the instruments or like to play with a different embouchure than you certainly have a problem. In that case the instruments of Leitner & Kraus and Swenk & Seggelke are problably better options.
For the G/C and G#/C#: does it help when you pull a little at the middle joint or will the RH notes become too low then?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-06-14 20:24
Jeroen wrote:
> Mark, I thought Legere is based in Canada? But the name is very
> French indeed.
In Québec ... more French than France!
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Author: Menendez
Date: 2009-06-14 20:40
Well, i dont have problems to be in tune in general with other clarinets or instruments.
B, Bb and A in general I can be in tune with others. With G too, cause it is a little sharp only.
The high C is the real problem (because its particular difficulty to center in tuner). And G# too, because is very sharp. In the low 12th (C#) it is not a problem... In low notes i think is not a big problem the differences in the pitch like in the high registers.
Other problematic note is B (third line of pentagram). In my Bb is a little flat, but doing more pression i can get it in tune... But RCs for example are sharp in this note.
Playing with piano, or as soloist in an orchestra, i have not problems. But i have them with an amateur wind band.
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2009-06-14 21:07
> Other problematic note is B (third line of pentagram). In my Bb is a little flat, > but doing more pression i can get it in tune... But RCs for example are sharp > in this note.
Yes, my RC Bb was sharp indeed on the B', I always pulled the bell one or two mm. On my Wurlitzer RB's the B' is spot on, the whole 2 octaves from low g up to G'' are spot on by the way :-)
As I don't have the "tief e/f verbesserung" the low f and e are low. Clearly Wurlitzer favoured the upper register above the lower register to be in tune.
The same counts for the 'long' Bb/Eb: xoo|xoo. The Bb in the upper register is in tune, the Eb in the lower register is unusable as it is too sharp.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-06-14 22:57
Menendez-
I am not sure how far out of tune these notes are (10 cents?? 15??) but the way you describe it seems beyond reasonable.
Also, these are some of the most expensive clarinets on the market!
I would send the instrument back and request that the problems be looked at.
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-06-15 17:52
aero:
I think someone plays a Reform-Klosé in the Oper of Hagen
That's a Scottish chap by the name of John Corbett. A very dear friend and a regular guest in my ensemble. In fact he has my contra at the moment. His "reform" instruments are by Jochen Seggelke in Bamberg. John helped design a couple of things on the instrument, including for example a little mechanism which puts the 'beginner' fingering for high f'''# in tune.
As it happens I just got back from Jochen's workshop. A friend of mine has a pair of Jochen's French-system instruments and was trying out barrels, bells and mouthpieces, and having a tonehole enlarged a bit. I tagged along to get Jochen to have a look at a 7-key classical C of his I bought second-hand - it needed repadding and a couple of other tweaks, and I'll get a wooden mouthpiece for it.
Which all sounds like a bit of an off-topic excursion so I have to contrast it with the stories we've read here on the topic itself: neither I nor the friend I mentioned had the slightest difficulty making contact with Jochen, getting the instruments tweaked, getting advice on why things are set up as they are. The stories we've read here about Another Maker do really make me wonder why anyone would bother! Especially the bit about having to go through a "Premium-Kunde" to get a reasonable waiting time and a quality instrument, if I've understood the above discussion correctly...
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Author: aero145
Date: 2009-06-15 18:31
Well that’s interesting to hear! Sad he isn’t playing a French Klosé though. :-þ
Nice to hear about the other things too.
B.r.,
DAE
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Author: Nitram
Date: 2011-08-17 04:15
I have only now read about all the info exchanged about intonation problems on the Wurlitzer Reforn Boehm clarinets, specialy on the high B and C, both on the Bb an A models.
I have played these instruments for the past 15 years , I own a pair made in 1994 and have retired 6 years ago as principal of the Buenos Aires Philarmonic Orch.My name is Martin Tow.
I agree there is a problem there but the solution , at least for me, was to have the speaker key open minimaly, opening less than a milimiter, and changing the Bb hole correction to a slightly bigger hole, so as to rise the intonation of throat Bb properly, since the key that covers it will also rise minimaly to the height of the direct speaker key and if the hole is the same as usual intonation will go flat there.This "solution" made all the high register speak much more precisely, without any "shadow harmonics" creeping in and correcting these 2 important notes and bettering all the altissimo. Also,very important, in my opinion , if you realy want to master these fine instruments it is very advisable NOT to mix, or try out "normal" Boehm clarinets, at least on the begining of adapting to these Reforms. Also the use of a german type mpce and reed is paramount. I know that there is now a Reform Boehm mpce made by Wurlitzer on which you can use Vandorens V.12s, but I havent tried them yet...Would love to receive info about these, as I am from Argentina, and quite far away from where all the action is.By the way, I love these clarinets, they have a great sound and are a pleasure to play. Only that one must study and master them well before, and this requires a GREAT deal of patience. Regards to all.
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Author: rtaylor
Date: 2011-08-17 18:32
I've played the Wurlitzer's for ten years now in various orchestral and chamber situations and they really are a marvelous instruments. I played Buffet and Selmer previous to that time and for my personal taste I prefer the Wurlitzer's. In the end it's just a tool for one's personal expression and it's never "one size fits all"
For anyone playing the Wurlitzer RBs, there are now new barrells and bells I that I got from Frank-Ulrich in Neustadt back in March that make some really great improvements all around on the clarinets.
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Author: Nitram
Date: 2011-08-18 02:33
"introducing the low E/B extension and now this retro-Bb mechanism.
We hope to have some pictures of the newest Artist Model 185s on our site soon."
Txs for your comments Eric & David.The tendency for the high register to go sharp, is a tendency that(also) comes from playing for so many years on a normal Boehm, but with a relaxed embouchure + the proper set up of mpce and reed the problem is no longer there.Closing up slightly the speaker pad/hole relationship has also helped me with this, but the best solution is on adquiring the correct embouchure and air flow.
I plan to add on to my set of Wurlitzers the low E/B extension, and I've already written to Brndt Wurlitzer about sending them soon for an overhaul + having these add-ons made and also the C#/G# extension to play with the RH index finger.
The wrap around retro-Bb mechanism seems also a good idea,I am not sure what the "change" would be, but I should perhaps ask you(or anyone reading this) , I know the Oehlers have this, and I have a Yamaha Oehler, that I fool around with sometimes I also had some years ago set of Yamaha RBs that had this wrap around, but the 185s are very superior, I sold my Yamahas in Holland 15 or 16 years ago.
Would it be possible to change the actual Bb mechanism on my set of 185's to the wrap around version ? .
All this beeing said, and just for the record, my interest in the Wurlitzers goes many years back,a colleague and good friend here in Argentina, Atilio Cascone, had an early set of H Wurlitzer RBs and they were the starting point of my interest in these instruments.The first time I met Herbert Wurlitzer was in 1968 and I bought my first set from him in the early 1970's. Being very busy at that time in my orchestra, I did play on them for some time, even performed the Weber N° 2 with the Bb, but without the proper mouthpiece,and did not have the time then to commit entirely , plus that I didn't know then as much as I do now about the German mpces and reeds. Now being retired and with more time free from professional duties I am having big time fun playing chamber music, practising, experimenting and trying to get the most out of these wonderful instruments. Best to all, Martin
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Author: Nitram
Date: 2011-12-05 08:56
Received back from overhaul my set of RB´s 185's with the addition of new bells with correction keys for low F and E + new extended touchpiece on middle csharp/gsharp key. Also received 2 new ringless barrels for the Bb and A clarinets respectively + some WZ1,WZ2 and WZ3 mpcs.
I must say that the work done was done in the superb fashion that only Wurlitzer can provide and the end result is so exceptional that I am finding it hard to beleive these were my clarinets, and not some new better and different instruments. Going into details, the addition of the new bells have made an astounding difference, not only in beeing able to fine tune the usualy quite flat F and E, but improving considerably the sound of the instruments, taking away the slightly harsh brightness, that these instruments had, and replacing it with a much mellower and darker quality, whilst at the same time, keeping(and improving)the centered, dense substance of the marvelous Wurltizer"sound".To say that I very satistfied is an understatement.
The bore of the ringless barrells received slightly larger than my originals, I supose this has also helped in creating a darker sound. The wood of these barrels was so close grained, that at first and for 2 weeks or so, I thought they were made of hard rubber, until my repairman pointed out they were made of grenadilla. Also am very nicely surprised with the WZ3 mpce which plays very well with V12 reeds and seems to bring the pitch slightly down.
I, nevertheless, at this time tend to prefer the more compact and dense sound of the WZ2 mpces and the Viottos I use, but will certainly give the WZ3 a good and fair try, when I have the time to do so.
All in all, a great experience and a big congratulations to H Wurlizer and many thanks to Bernd Wurlitzer for his kindness and help.
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Author: Menendez
Date: 2011-12-06 01:06
I didn't come in BBoard over a year ago, and I am glad to see this thread is still alive.
Well, after 3 years playing on RB Wurlitzers I can say many things.
It's true all you say about embochure. But to achieve this you need to find a reed that matchs perfectly with the mouthpiece and works also perfectly in all registers of the clarinet in all kind of situations (piano, forte, legato, stacatto, register changes). If not, probably you will do unconsciously some little changes in the embochure that definitively will affect the intonation. And it is very difficult to find the good reed. This problem is common in all kind of clarinets, but in my opinion, the changes in the intonation are much more appreciable in the RB clarinets than in french bore clarinets.
I agree with Martin about the "register hole" solution. In fact, I changed the capsule of this hole for closer one, and consequently I changed the throat Bb capsule for wider one. Despite this, Bb is still flat, but I remember the first day I played my set of Wurlitzer the Bb was flat, overall if I play a fast passage with Bb. It is because it is very difficult for me to separate completely the left thumb finger from the F note ring, so the pad goes down and tuning low (I don't know if you understand what I want say, because I don't know how to say correctly in english). In long notes I can sharp the Bb with more lip pressure.
I must say that is more problematic my Bb clarinet than A (in fact, A clarinet doesn't give me any problem, only the commented throat Bb).
I am the owner of a pair of 3WZ mouthpieces and I play much more confortable than with vienna mouthpieces (Wurlitzer W4, Alexander Wilscher or Viotto). The intonation is better and sound is powerful, not so dark as in vienna mouthpieces, and not so brilliant as a french clarinet.
Finally, I find a great improvement the new position for the register hole, because it avoids condensation problems (I have always condensation in the register hole after few minutes playing).
Regards.
P.D.: you can enjoy the Herbert Wurlitzer clarinets group that I created on Facebook.
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Author: Menendez
Date: 2011-12-06 01:50
DavidBlumberg wrote:
>The Berliners are still performing on the Legere Reeds. I was watching a >broadcast, and a player had his reed visible - for sure was not cane.
Not exactly... The last information I have it's that they are playing with a mouthpiece and reed combination from Nick Kückmeier:
http://www.playnick.at/
Who play with this combination say that it is the definitive solution for German/Vienna players. I know many players that left traditional reeds after try Nick mouthpieces and plastic reeds. Even most of them sold their Uhl Technik Reed Profiling Machine.
Legere are more specialized on french mouthpieces, but still they haven't the definitive solution. At least that says Pascal Moragues... Also there are Legere vienna cut reeds for Gleichweit mouthpieces. In Vienna Symphonic and Philharmonic they play with these mouthpieces.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2011-12-06 02:26
Is that a synthetic reed that's the same color as the Legere?
Legere told me this Summer that the section plays his reeds. And I have a picture of one the players who turned his mouthpiece during a concert which made the synthetic reed clearly visible.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Menendez
Date: 2011-12-06 12:08
DavidBlumberg wrote:
>Is that a synthetic reed that's the same color as the Legere?
>Legere told me this Summer that the section plays his reeds. And I have a >picture of one the players who turned his mouthpiece during a concert >which made the synthetic reed clearly visible.
> I do see the Fuchs model reed on that site you listed which is
> in German.
> Wish they had an English version of the site. My iPad doesn't
> do google translation for the page easily.
>
Yes, is a synthetic reed like Legere. But Nick has his own patent.
Some clarinetists played with Legere at first, but now most of them play with Nick mouthpiece+reed combination.
In Vienna in general they play with Legere reeds in combination with Gleichweit mouthpieces.
There is a very interesting video about Nick, but I dont find it :(
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Author: Menendez
Date: 2011-12-06 13:13
Well, reading and listening better in my poor german, I think I know now better the question. That is, Nick has improved the "system". Starting from Legere synthetic reeds he has designed a new mouthpiece to creat the PlayEasy System, it means, a Nick mouthpiece + German cut Legere reed, improved both to give the best response in all registers, dinamics and articulations.
Here is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJH08po23uo
At 2:40 you can see and hear the difference between a traditional reed (he says "holz blatt") and the synthetic reed (he says "mein PlayNick System"). The main advantage of the synthetic reed is you don't need to moisten the reed. You put it and play. And it doesn't change its response along the concert. There only little changes between summer and winter (the synthetic reed is a little more soft with high temperature).
I think there is nothing like a good traditional reed, but it's hard to find the good one, and synthetic reeds always give you the same response.
Post Edited (2011-12-06 13:34)
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Author: Lam
Date: 2011-12-29 10:04
Hello, I would like to ask owners of the RB instruments (Wurlitzer or L+K), what is the basic tuning of your instrument (A=44?, regardless of longer or shorter barrel) or did you ask for the specific tuning that you want when you order them ?
and also is it okay not to have the low e/f for reform bohem, would it be too flat like in the German clarinet ? Thanks !
by the way, i have given up playing Viennese facing too, its too hard to find a good reed ! hope that I could try some Playeasy in the future too.
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2011-12-29 10:40
I have 2 sets RB H.Wurlitzers on the moment, both without the e/f compensation mechanism. Don't know the 'basic' tuning (if there is any) but both sets can be played from A=440 up to 442 Hz without any problem. On the newer set (2004) the low e/f notes are too low and it is difficult to lip them up enough. On the older set (1982) the low e/f are almost in tune or easy to compensate by embouchure. So, I think the need for the e/f compensation mechanism depends on the particular instrument.
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Author: Lam
Date: 2011-12-29 11:43
Thanks so much Jeroen for the information ! by the way, what is the common tuning in Netherlands, is it A=442 Hz ? Thanks again !
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2011-12-29 13:36
Don't know every orchestra but A=442Hz is quite common yes.
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Author: Menendez
Date: 2012-01-02 11:18
Hello Lam,
When I ordered my set of Wurlitzer clarinets I asked for A=442 (here in Spain we play at 442). That means you will be at 442 with the short barrel when clarinet is warmed up, in warm ambient temperature. If the ambience is very hot (summer), you will have to use the long barrel, because to out the short barrel maybe is not enough.
About low e/f improvement I agree with Jeroen. In my set low e/f are little sharp if I use the mechanism, and a little flat if I don't use it. So in pianissimo I dont use the mechanism, and I do it when I play in fortissimo.
In Netherlands they play at 442 (generally in all Europe). In Deutschland and Österreich they play at 445.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2012-01-02 14:37
Menendez is not correct regarding pitch in north European orchestras. All of the professional modern orchestras in the Netherlands play at A=442. Many of the top orchestras in Germany play today at only A=443. I don't know about Austria, but I highly doubt that any orchestras play today higher than A=444.
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Author: Lam
Date: 2012-01-05 14:53
Thanks Jeroen and Menedez for the information and also thanks Liquorice for the amendment
Therefore, could I say that having a clarinet tune to A=442 is enough to play in tune in most part of Europe? (I suppose with a shorter barrel it is enough for 443 too, is it correct ?)
Thanks again !
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Author: Menendez
Date: 2012-01-08 14:42
I think Liquorice knows better than me about the pitch in Central Europe Orchestras, because in the headline of his posts it says he is from Switzerland.
But I read in some violinist forums that in Berlin they tune at 445. In fact I am the owner of a Yamaha 457-22 (deutsche system) with pitch at 445 with the short barrel.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-01-08 23:05
I must point out that we in the UK play at A=440. I do believe we are still part of Europe even if we didn't agree with the Franco-German fiscal agreement ;-)
Peter Cigleris
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Author: pkluttik
Date: 2014-08-22 01:41
Hi Tom,
I've been looking at some old posts and have noticed this interesting discussion on Wurlitzers and mouthpieces. I am a Boston area freelancer and play on Wurliter reformed boehm clarinets with a Vioto N1+2 mouthpiece. I love it!
I am currently working with Vermont Virtuosi and need a Bass clarinet and would like to find either a Wurlitzer or Hammerschmidt since my A and Bb, and Eb and basset extension are all Wurlitzers.
Maybe you have heard of one for sale i(2nd hand) n the States?
Thanks very much for any info or contacts you might have,
Karen Luttik
www.karenluttik.com
Musicaleren
(603) 438 6362
pkluttik@gmail.com
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-08-23 02:15
Hi, there's a Schwenk und Seggelke Bass clarinet for sale in USA at the moment, but you are probably not interested in that. And there's a young man on this BB raving about various German bass clarinets very enthusiastically, but I've only once in the last 15 years ever seen a Wurlitzer bass clarinet for sale 2nd hand (and that wasn't in USA)
dn
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Author: Geten
Date: 2023-04-12 14:11
Hello all!
I have read all these interesting posts here about the tuning problems on the Wurlitzers. I allso have them.
I own a pair of Fritz W - from around 1960 with large bore. Wonderfull clarinets indeed- but there are tuning problems. The high left g a b c are a bit high but this is easy to adjust with correct emboushyre and reeds etc . The bigger problem is the throat Bb with the Barrel that tunes the whole instrument best this note low. Very anoying.
Then I can get a bit high in piano on the low G and G# which is frustrating.
All these problems are when I play i 440. In 442 all gone .. tuning ok.
My conclusion is they are simply made to play high / German pitch is often 442-44. I don’t know is 440 just will be like this.
Best
Joachim Åkerlind
Modern and historical clarinetist
Joachim in Sweden
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