 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kerryklari
Date: 2021-11-19 23:58
I know that the bores are slightly different, but I wonder if there is much/any difference between the key systems? I've seen an old Yamaha advert that says their Austrian 458 models have linked G#/A keys "like Austrian clarinets" but they now do that on their German ones too. Schreiber link the keys on their Austrian models but not the German ones; in addition, they say it has "adjusted positioning of the keys" but not what the adjustments are. The German fingering pages on this website say that the forked first space F works on Austrian clarinets, but Yamaha make no mention of this in their fingering chart, nor have I seen it anywhere else. Overall, I can't tell if there are any standard differences you would expect any Austrian model clarinet to have, or whether it's mainly small things that vary between makers, apart from the larger bore.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-11-20 00:23
Don't discount the larger bore. To my ears the Austrian sound is more diffused (hollow), but that's more what I remember from traditional players of the past. The Ottensamer with Berlin manages a rather forward and brittle sound (not sure if this is a trend).
Yes, the linked "A" and "G#" keys are more Austrian. I don't think Wurlitzer of Neusstadt even makes that available.....but it's really nice to have! Without it you have to release the "G#" when engaging "A" or you'll be too sharp. Same thing with the fork first space "F." Just like our 1 and 1 "Bb" fingering, it's too sharp to be a usable chalumeau "Eb." Just one of those weird glitches with the twelfths on the clarinet.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: kerryklari
Date: 2021-11-21 14:16
Thanks both for the information.
I've recently returned to clarinet after a long absence, and I wasn't ever better than "lower intermediate" anyway. In the meantime, I've been playing recorder. I found the fingerings on my old Selmer quite awkward, decided to try out German fingering, and find it works much better for me (much closer to recorder fingerings basically).
I'm still experimenting with instruments. I bought an old 2nd hand Adler but it really needs an overhaul and I'm not certain that it's worth spending much on, so considering buying something else - though I have acquired a few German mouthpieces now and it would be a pity if they wouldn't fit an Austrian clarinet.
The only fingering I find awkward on the Adler is the first space F using the side key. It's ok and no doubt one gets used to it, but the cross fingering of oxo|ooo that works on recorder is more natural, so I was interested to see it given as a fingering that works on Austrian model clarinets, though all other fingering is the same as on standard German instruments. I'm sure you'll have seen it, but the fingering chart I'm referring to is this one: https://www.wfg.woodwind.org/clarinet/ocl_alt_1.html
This gives 4 fingerings for F: the side key one as standard, trill key one for Oehler systems (my Adler doesn't have this key), cross fingering for Austrian systems and similar but with extra fingers down to reduce the sharpness on German systems. Only the first really works for me. oxo|ooo is sharp, oxx|ooo isn't bad pitch-wise but not a good note, quite muffled, and oxx|xoo is worse.
There are several "every possible fingering" guides around for Boehm clarinet - is there such a thing for "German family" clarinets? None of the charts I have seen list the xox|ooo Eb fingering for example.
Post Edited (2021-11-21 14:18)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-11-21 16:35
"I bought an old 2nd hand Adler but it really needs an overhaul and I'm not certain that it's worth spending much on"
If the clarinet is structurally sound and has potential, then there's no reason to deem it unworthy of an overhaul.
The xox|ooo fingering I mentioned for lower register Eb was an experiment to see if it was a viable one and a much better alternative to the keyed fingerings to make things easier (just as it does in Boehm systems fitted with the LH forked Eb/Bb mechanism), only it didn't work. It's just like using long Bb (xoo|xoo) on Boehm systems which is better tuned as an upper register Bb, but too sharp as a useful lower register Eb - except in some cases where it can be used in some fast passages if it makes things easier.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kerryklari
Date: 2021-11-21 18:24
>If the clarinet is structurally sound and has potential, then there's no reason to deem it unworthy of an overhaul.
Yes, you are right - thanks, I shouldn't, but I needed someone to point that out!
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Author: kehammel
Date: 2021-11-21 20:26
I sometimes think of getting a used German or Austrian system clarinet, but haven't done it because of this question- concert pitch tends to be higher over there (I'm in the US), so how hard is it to play one of these horns at A440?
And if it can be done, are there particular makes or periods of manufacture that would make it easier? For example, the German Wikipedia page on Kammerton says A443 is customary now, but 50 years ago A445 was common. That gives something like a 20 cent difference versus A440.
This could mean a vintage Adler, for example, might be tougher to get in tune than a newer one.
Ken
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Author: donald
Date: 2021-11-21 21:37
If you go further back you'll find the instruments were playing at 440 (1880s to 1920s). You'll often find instruments from this era that were "cut", shortened in the middle of the 20th c to allow them to play at higher pitch.
Our 1910s bass clarinet made by Oskar Oehler plays at 440 with the original neck and 445 with the "cut" neck (with obvious after market shortening).
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-11-22 00:23
So yes, still the pitch difference is rather extreme (about 5 cents globally ....... and that IS a LOT!).
The problem isn't just SHARP, because once you start pulling out to make up that much ground the consequence is a horn that becomes out of tune with itself (shorter tube notes flattened MORE than longer tube notes and you have a big mess.....usually). On my circa 1984 Wurlitzer 100Cs, I was able to pull out just enough and not destroy internal pitch enough to make it work. According to Gerold Klarinetten (of Austria), they bore their tone holes such that you can make the pitch change just by adding significant enough length to the barrel (not sure what he means by that but that was the claim just a few years ago).
The real solution it to buy (either a direct custom order or one that was custom ordered) a German or Austrian horn at A=440 pitch. Traveling soloist Karl Leister carried two sets of horns with him (one set at 445 and another at 440) on tour. Currently I believe the prices are around $12,000 US dollars per horn, but I haven't requested a price from Wurlitzer in a while so that's a bit of a guess. Their not cheap but are clearly the way to go for professional players of German horns.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-11-22 00:24
I bought a Richard Keilwerth Oehler system off eBay back in the early 2000s which was built to 444Hz, making it difficult to play down to 440Hz.
My Yamaha Oehler system is built to around 442Hz or maybe 443Hz and I made a longer barrel (59mm) to help bring it down to 440Hz.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kehammel
Date: 2021-11-22 04:49
Good reason to steer clear of those clarinets, then, if one wants to play with other musicians. Unless you know how to make your own barrels (as Chris P said) or have well over ten grand to blow (as Paul said).
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Author: kerryklari
Date: 2021-11-22 13:48
Chris: thanks for links to images; I've had a good look at them and really cannot see any visible difference other than the G#/A link. Presumably the differences really are down almost entirely to the bore - I don't have much experience with clarinets but have made a recorder (with an expert!) and seen how tiny differences to the bore can retune individual notes, which presumably accounts for the forked F being in tune with an Austrian bore and not in tune with a German bore.
WRT pitch at 445, my old clarinet teacher reckoned that plastic reeds (he was specifically referring to Legeres, though that was several years ago and there was less choice then) tended to make instruments play flat. So apologies if this is a completely daft suggestion, but it might be a simple/inexpensive way of dropping the pitch a little without making the whole instrument go out of tune with itself.
Separate question re Austrian clarinets: will they take German mouthpieces? I am still toying with the idea of trying an Austrian model, but have acquired several German mouthpieces and it would be really annoying if they were all rendered useless because of not fitting the barrel. (I'm not looking for "authenticity", just being lazy about fingering!)
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2021-11-22 20:31
A German mouthpiece tenon would probably fit the socket of an Austrian clarinet barrel, but the problem is the differing bore size and it's effect on intonation. A typical German mouthpiece bore is 15.0mm in diameter, while a typical Austrian mouthpiece bore is 15.4mm - to suit the larger bore of an Austrian clarinet. Thus a German mouthpiece on an Austrian clarinet would most probably make it very much out of tune with itself.
Some players experience a drop in pitch with synthetic reeds, but usually more so in the third register than in the first or second register. Anyway, the few cents it could be would be far from the 3-5 difference in hertz (the difference in cents between 440 and 443 Hz is about 12).
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