 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-05-12 22:53
Here's a question that came up recently in a union orchestra. If rehearsal letter D is placed at the beginning of measure 56, does "five bars after letter D" mean bar 60 or 61?
When I conduct, I always avoid this problem by calling out "fifth bar of D" (and, since I conduct students, I often have them count along with me - "starting at letter D, one, two...five bars.").
But sometimes I notice as a player that confusion results when a conductor asks us to start "5 bars after D." When this happened recently in our orchestra, it turned out the conductor actually was counting the bar with D over its left barline as a kind of zero bar - zero, 1, 2, 3, 4 , 5 after.
So 5 bars after = 6th bar of.
I'm wondering how much unanimity there will be here about this.
Karl
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Author: BobW
Date: 2015-05-12 23:04
Depends on how it is stated
I think
Five bars after D would be measure 60
(implied letter D is just a marker in the score not a measure)
five bars after measure D would be 61
(implied calling the measure D)
I have often wondered this myself
Post Edited (2015-05-12 23:04)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-05-12 23:17
If D is bar 56, then five bars after D or the fifth bar of D would be bar 60 - you include the bar itself (bar 56) and count that as bar one of D as D starts at the beginning of bar 56.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2015-05-12 23:30
I agree with Chris and Bob.
On the lighter side, watch what you say if there's a letter P in the score. I'll never forget a moment from my high school days when our director wanted us to start at this letter. Without thinking, he said, "One, two, ready P!" He immediately realized what he had said, and we all had a good laugh.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2015-05-12 23:47
Almost as good as telling the entire orchestra to "Go to L"
Yes, it's happened. Frequently.
...GBK
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Author: Chris_C ★2017
Date: 2015-05-13 00:11
"Fifth bar of D" is unambiguous so should be preferred!
I think the majority of conductors I have played for have used this form...
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Author: MSK
Date: 2015-05-13 02:48
Related question: If asked to number the measures on a piece that lacks measure numbers, how do you count first and second endings? If measure 49 and 50 are the first ending, are the first two measures of the second ending also 49 and 50, or are they 51 and 52? Does it matter if the endings have different numbers of measures? This has gotten even trickier in my orchestra a time or two when different sections of the orchestra have repeats vs written out parts.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-05-13 03:02
MSK wrote:
> Related question: If asked to number the measures on a piece
> that lacks measure numbers, how do you count first and second
> endings?
In the old pre-digital days, the endings would have begun with the bar same numbers.
In the computer-generated notation age, the programs generally continue the numbering sequentially regardless of the repeat signs, so the measure after the first ending would be the next number.
It is perfectly possible and not hard to fix this behavior in either Finale or Sibelius - I don't have any experience with older notation software - but it's just enough trouble that many Finale/Sibelius Rangers don't bother. It doesn't really matter if everyone is working from the same edition. But as MSK wrote, it's a nuisance when you're mixing older published parts and new software-generated ones.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-05-13 03:17
Most commonly, all bars are numbered from the first to the last irrespective of 1st time bars in repeated sections, so say the 1st time bars are bars 13 - 16, the 2nd time bars will be numbered 17 - 20 and the next section will start with bar number 21.
But if you do have instances where some repeated strains are written out in full but others have repeats, then you have to go by the rehearsal marks if they're marked which will make things easier if they are, or go through the parts and mark them in if not.
And if your conductor doesn't want any repeats, then that's where things get messy with the parts that are all written out in full, so the required cuts will have to be made in those parts. So they will have to specify which bars are cut, eg. (going back to the bar numbers in my first paragraph in this reply) - cut bars 13 to 20 inclusive or cut from the end of bar 12 to the start of bar 21.
If you're doing any theatre pit band work, expect loads of cuts or extra repeats - most musical directors will hand out a list of cuts/extra repeats in certain numbers for you to mark in your part, but still ask them if what they've said and what you've interpreted are both the same thing.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2015-05-13 06:53
Or as my former instructor used to love to say, "Ok. Start at letter D. As in your grade." Lol. Great clarinetist and fun guy!
US Army Japan Band
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2015-05-13 09:28
>> Here's a helpful list of rules <<
That goes against the fact that lists of rules aren't helpful.
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2015-05-13 17:24
Another one that's quite funny is if the conductor says "Are we all at C?"
Vanessa.
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Author: qualitycontrol
Date: 2015-05-14 01:04
To all of those saying 5 bars after D (D being 56) is 60, you actually think if someone says one bar after D that you play 56? One bar after D, and playing from D, cannot be the same thing.
The fifth bar of D is 60, I don't at all see how anyone can accept or encourage playing 60 after being instructed to play 5 bars after D, it's clear that it's 61.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-05-14 01:52
Attachment: fifth bar of d.jpg (104k)
See attachment.
Six bars after D is bar 61 as is the sixth bar of D.
Five bars after D is bar 60 as is the fifth bar of D.
One bar after D with D being bar 56 is bar 57.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2015-05-14 01:56)
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Author: qualitycontrol
Date: 2015-05-14 02:15
So...
One bar after D is 57 (as you say.)
So, two bars after D is 58 (makes sense.)
Three bars after D is 59 (ditto.)
Four bars after D is 60.
Five bars after D is also 60?
I don't get it.
It's fairly pedantic to discuss when the example is 5, 9, 13 (etc.) in 4 or 8 bar phrasing, where it's clear that the conductor is hoping to start from the beginning of a phrase or an entry, but I've wasted too much time at rehearsals with conductors asking for '19 after D' of a long section to troubleshoot something specific and half of the group starts on 75 and half starts on 76. People need to be more specific with their language and the difference between '5 bars after D' and 'the 5th bar of D' should be clear to everyone.
Post Edited (2015-05-14 02:26)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-05-14 03:49
I don't even recall anyone ever requesting to start one bar after a rehearsal mark in living memory - taking D as the rehearsal mark in this example, they'd most likely say:
- start at or go from (beat 1 of) D, or...
- go from the lead into D (which could be part way through bar 55, or the last few notes of bar 55, or the anacrusis to beat 1 of bar 56), or ...
- go from a/one bar before or the bar before D (right on beat 1 of bar 55), or...
- go from two bars before D (beat 1 of bar 54), or...
- go from the second bar of D (beat 1 of bar 57).
Saying one bar after D is a bit vague as it can easily be misinterpreted. Do they mean the first full bar after the rehearsal mark (which is bar 56 itself or the first bar of D) or the bar after bar 1 of D (which is 57 making it the second bar of D)?
I don't know anymore, it's too late for this and my brain going into meltdown. Time for bed I think.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2015-05-14 05:23)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-05-14 04:10
kdk wrote:
> I'm wondering how much unanimity there will be here about this.
:) I guess I have my answer.
It does seem as though with no ambiguity about "17th bar of Q" that conductors should be more careful to use "of" instead of "after" for the sake of saving time.
Karl
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