 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Scott S
Date: 2009-02-06 14:07
Colleagues on the Board:
I need your expertise. I play bass clarinet in an adult wind ensemble that is excellent. As a soprano clarinetist who owns a Buffet R-13 topped off with a Greg Smith mouthpiece and barrel, I am struggling to produce a quality sound on my bass clarinet.
Today what I need most is equipment advice. I am aware that lessons with an excellent teacher would help as well.
Here is my situation. I need to use a student line Yamaha Bass Clarinet. Financially I cannot afford a quality bass clarinet at this time. So the only equipment "tweek" I can make is the mouthpiece.
I've been online "researching" and also picked Greg Smith's brain about his recommended brand. I know that Clark Fobes, Walt Grabner, and even a Vandoren B-45 are possibilities to improve my situation.
Last night at rehearsal I "test drove" a Vandoren B-45. While my dynamic range improved from the stock mouthpiece, and intonation and articulation were greatly improved - I still have this issue of the clarion register being stuffy and the move from second space "A" to fourth space "E" didn't work smoothly at all unless I was slurring.
My question: Will a student stock line bass clarinet in working order (which this is - no leaks, pads have been checked) with a professional line or intermediate level mouthpiece play well? Or am I at the limit of this bass clarinet even with a high end mouthpiece?
Will a Clark Fobes or Walt Grabner be a huge step over this Vandoren? Do I need to have a pro line bass clarinet in order to have non-stuffy clarion register tone?
Thanks for any input you can offer!
Sincerely,
Scott S
Minnesota
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-02-06 14:46
A good mouthpiece will improve your sound and response on ANY grade of instrument. Definitely try some Fobes and Grabner mouthpieces, and Roger Garrett's mouthpieces as well. If the Yammie is not leaking it should play reasonably well in all registers.
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Author: William
Date: 2009-02-06 15:17
When I bought my Buffet Prestige, I was playing on an old Vandoran B45 picked out by my old college clarinet professor. Then I heard about Walter Grabner and made arrangements to visit his home "just to try" one of his mouthpiecies. I was literally blown away by how much better his CXBS mouthpiece performed--it was like night and day with respect to sound and upper register response. That model has since been discontinued and replaced with the CXLB model mouthpiece which Walter developed in collaboration with Lawrie Bloom, the Chicago Symphony Orchestra's long time bass clarinetist. I like my old CXBS (based on Selmer's C*) and I'm certain that you will like his new Zinner based CXLB just as well--at least, a whole lot better than your B45.
I think that the mouthpiece is the most important--or at least, most influential--piece of clarinet equipement that you will ever own. A good mouthpiece can make a mediocre clarinet sound (& play) golden.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-02-06 15:17
I believe a good mouthpiece will improve your playing but I doubt it will overcome the instruments problems. It sounds to me like that is the major problem. I know that different players sound good on different type mouthpieces which is why you have to try them to see what fits you best. I usually recommend the Selmer C*, that's what I use touched up by Dave McClune, I also like the
Forbes RR facing a lot as well as the Lomax#2, I don't particularly like the Vandoren B45 at all, I find that a bit harsh. I've heard good things about some mentioned by Dave but never tried them myself. I've been very lucky with my students using the C* but you have to try several since no two mouthpieces of any kind play alike, not matter who makes them. Dave McClune does a great job touching them up or you can get them directly from him. His web sight is www.mcclunemouthpiece.com. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2009-02-06 16:00)
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Author: Lynn
Date: 2009-02-06 15:21
Scott,
Let me add a recommendation to try a Richard Hawkins mouthpiece. I was making a similar choice just about a year ago and the nice folks at Muncy Winds furnished me with a Selmer C*, a Clark Fobes, and the Hawkins to try simultaneously. The Hawkins, for me at least, was by far the best of the three. I do concede and understand, however, that everyone's "mileage may vary." The point, though, is to try numerous mouthpieces and find the one that best works with your instrument, your reed, ligature, and most of all, YOU.
I hope you enjoy making the transition to the large instrument as I have. It's a gas.
Best wishes,
Lynn
Austin, TX
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Author: BYUone
Date: 2009-02-06 15:28
I too changed from a soprano to bass in an adult wind symphony. My bass is a Yamaha 211. Besides a well maintained insrtrument the two biggest jumps in my clarion and altissimo ability came from two sources. First was a refaced mouthpiece by Dave Spiegelthal. Significant leap in articulation. Second was from my instructor who worked on the way I played the mouthpiece. Tighter in the lower register, loosen it as you assend pass the break. Almost exaggerating dropping the jaw as you pass e to f and up into altissimo. Works for me. I can staccato the octive jumps reasonably well. Enjoy
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2009-02-06 16:12
I'm very pleased to read the above, well-informed, mp discussion in answer to Scott's question. I believe Ed P meant Selmer C*, not Vandoren, and I second it unless you wish to go the higher-priced "custom-made" bass mps. In my experience, playing on some 6-8 mps, the best I have found [for me, and a few others] are the Pomarico glass mps, with the #3 facing, or refaced by David S or other qualified B C techs. Presuming that your B C is the "single register vent" [lesser-expensive] model, you might have a B C knowledgable tech try difffent vent-pad clearances [pad-rise] and make sure the vent tube is clean and tightly situated, also an absolutely non-leaking/non-rising [in error] pad for sounding the "pinch" Bb is required for good performance. For nyself, I kept trying out B C's until I was satisfied with a double register vent" model [an older pro Selmer], more complex mechanically, but worth it IMHO. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-02-06 17:07
I know that different players perceive "stuffiness" differently, so I might be more - or less - tolerant than others.
I don't believe that notes around the break sound differently when being played on single or double register key instruments. Plus, the Yamaha is a fine instrument, so just stick with it.
Also, I don't really think that the mouthpiece is the culprit, unless you caught an exceptionally bad specimen; mid-staff notes certainly don't push the limits of either mouthpiece of instrument.
What has not been mentioned yet is the embouchure. I think it is differently enough from a soprano clarinet embouchure, and you may or may not have to adjust your embouchure between registers. Also, the strength of your reeds is not necessarily the same as the one you're using on soprano.
My hints: experiment with different reed and mouthpiece combinations. Long tones help, as does idle noodling.
(FWIW I play a humble Artley (Bundy clone) bass with Behn Ouverture and Spiegelthal Mouthpieces and Selmer Primo reeds. No stuffiness issues here.)
--
Ben
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Author: Scott S
Date: 2009-02-06 19:21
Thanks to each of you for your informative posts! I appreciate your wisdom and insights very much. It sounds like the majority of you at least recommend trying an outstanding level mouthpiece. I'm also haunted to get the bass clarinet checked over one more time....just in case.
The joy that several of you shared about playing the bass clarinet makes me happy. It is so easy to look at the B.CL as a sort of "demotion" from the soprano. And clearly, it is an adventure unfolding.
I just want to make this journey well stocked and prepared with the best equipment that I can afford.
Thanks again! And I will gladly welcome any additional posts!
Scott
Minnesota
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-02-06 20:20
Scott, you wrote: "It is so easy to look at the B.CL as a sort of "demotion" from the soprano."
Maybe things have changed, but back when I was in school (a few centuries ago) the band directors would always take the worst soprano clarinet players and "direct" them to play the lower clarinets. Needless to say the quality of bass clarinet playing on the average was horrendous. I was very rare in being one of the very few kids who WANTED to play bass clarinet, and switching to the big horn was one of the best musical moves I ever made.
Bass clarinet is a wonderful instrument and has many challenges and rewards ahead for you, don't let anyone tell you otherwise! By the same token, make sure to maintain your soprano clarinet 'chops' --- I made the mistake back then of dropping the little clarinet altogether but, once in college, found out that many gigs required me to be competent on soprano as well as bass clarinet, and it took me a few years of hard work on Bb clarinet to get comfortable again on it after focusing 100% on the bass clarinet for the previous few years. So by all means play the bass, but don't ignore the little guy.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2009-02-06 20:55
Ben adds some worthwhile comments and advice, YES embouchures are different and need be developed. I echo D S's comments, and have much enjoyed some 20 years of comm. band bass playing, shifting over to Alto cl , with competent bass players available, to demonstrate that there is "A Place For Us" in band music that alto sax and horns dont fill adequately, {Just my HO !] . I also try to maintain a sop. emb. , but the higher altiss. isn't V G. Just PM thots, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: William
Date: 2009-02-06 21:46
"B.CL as a sort of "demotion" from the soprano. "
Riduculous!!! I am proud to be the "one and only bass" clarinet in our Madison Area Wind Ensemble and during last Sunday's rehearsal, I was the only clarinetist to receive applause from the rest of the ensemble for my sight-reading of a bass clarinet cadenza in a piece by Aldo Rafael Forte called "Impressionist Prints"--mostly from the "little" clarinet players LOL. Definately not a demotion, but a position of responsibility. As Ben Franklin might have said (had he played clarinet), "Bass [paraphrased] Proudly!!"
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-02-06 21:59
> I was the only clarinetist to receive applause from the rest of the ensemble
> for my sight-reading of a bass clarinet cadenza
So did our Tenor saxophonist...
While I congratulate you for the applause, I don't think your sight-reading skills are the result of playing the bass clarinet. You may just be a gifted player, or sight reader, or both, and you would have deserved the the same applause if it had been on soprano.
I'm playing bass in winter, and mostly it's the same oom-pah-pha backing, the occasional bass line accompanying a solo, and when there is a true soloist riff, the bari player is asked to stand up during the applause while I am not. (we did the same lines - once he, once me).
Maybe I should get a metal bass...
--
Ben
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2009-02-06 22:05
".....bass clarinet as a demotion from the soprano"
Hogwash! Look at John Philip Sousa's payroll sheet:
http://www.clarinet.org/fests/2006/Krebs.asp
Bass clarinet is a solo position in symphony orchestras, and is considered a principal chair in many of them. The practice of assigning the bass clarinet to underachieving clarinetists is fast dying out, and the newaest generation of band compositions and transcriptions more and more have interesting and challenging roles for the bass clarinet. The emergence of world-class solo performers, starting with Josef Horak, and progressing with Harry Spaarnay and Henri Bok, and now so many others has given the instrument a new dignity. And instrument manufacturers are finally starting to make quality bass clarinets -- not just relegating us to "harmony"or "background" instruments.
Play with pride, Scott! And ditch the B45, IMO an awful mouthpiece.
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2009-02-08 14:55
William is correct: bass clarinet is a position of responsibility.
Regular band clarinetists are typically part of a group of people playing the same part. Other than the principal, no individual plays an exposed part (if one person does not play a passage, nobody notices), and no individual plays a solo.
The bass clarinetist has frequent solo passages and exposed parts. If the bass makes a mistake, people know it.
Music suggestion: get your band to play "Mary's Boy Child" by Philip Sparke. It is a catchy tune your audience will like, it is not a difficult piece, and it starts and ends with extended bass clarinet solos.
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Author: Scott S
Date: 2009-02-08 15:22
Again, thank you to each of you for your insightful and passionate posts! I completely agree with you on the bass clarinet having a respected and important role in the Wind Symphony and Orchestra! I shared that comment above in my post about "it is so easy to look at this as a demotion" not believing that to be true - but rather as a comment that I think perhaps many bass clarinetist believe - me NOT being one of them.
That is why I began this thread, because I DO care about my new role and want to be as excellent as I'm capable. And I know that the equipment and mouthpiece set-up is crucial to my accomplishing this.
So again, anyone who has feedback on:
Walt Grabner
Clark Fobes
Vandoren B45
Pomarico
ANY Bass Clarinet mouthpieces that you might recommend along with
Playing aspects
I appreciate your feedback and support very much!
FYI, an "Update":
I "test drove" the Vandoren B45 on Thursday night in rehearsal and found the following:
1. Increased articulation speed
2. Increased dynamic range
3. Better intonation
Yet....
Ongoing problems going from Chalumeau to Clarion, Tenuous Tone Problems from 4th space E on up.
So...I have an appointment to visit Midwest Musical Imports in Downtown Minneapolis on Tuesday to try a couple of Clark Fobes mouthpieces with my Yamaha Student Line Bass Clarinet!
I will update!
Thanks again for all of your help!
Scott S
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Author: DougR
Date: 2009-02-09 14:37
Just to add to the mouthpiece question:
If you're going for off-the-shelf inventory, in addition to trying the Fobeses on Tuesday you might throw in a couple of Selmer C85's with different tip openings.
I have a nice old Selmer Series 9 bass, and when I first got it I tried some Vandorens (B45 and B44), and they were nothing special. Tried some Selmer C*'s as well, and they were undistinguished and inconsistent. The Selmer C85's I tried were different enough to merit consideration and I ended up with a C85-115. It's been my "using" mouthpiece since then.
However, I applaud your search, never having gotten out of the mass-produced off-the-shelf niche myself. I'd love to try some of the high-end mouthpieces mentioned above, but that'll have to wait for...tax refund? lottery win?...something.
Please report back on what you found!
PS, embouchure and tone production are crucial as well, and if I were you I wouldn't spring huge bucks for a premium mouthpiece without first taking a check-ride or two with a professional bass clarinetist (one who plays PRINCIPALLY bass for a living, I mean). You might find (as I did, when I did the same) that just a couple of lessons with such a person can transform your approach, and your sound, AND (most important perhaps) your enjoyment of what is hands-down MY favorite instrument!
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Author: Scott S
Date: 2009-02-09 14:43
Thanks, Doug!
I will definitely get back to you after my "play test" tomorrow!
Scott
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Author: Scott S
Date: 2009-02-11 02:46
To Doug and All Who Contributed to this Thread:
I have good news! I just returned from a trial playing experience at Midwest Musical Imports in Minneapolis. They showed me a studio and let me "test drive" two Clark Fobes Mouthpiece Models: the CF and the RR.
I am smiling, because the 45 minutes I spent trying them on my Yamaha Student Line Bass Clarinet were absolutely delightful. They were amazing. Tone quality was clear and even from chalumeau to clarion to altissimo; the articulation was incredibly flexible; the intonation solid; dynamic range very free; and I feel like a new player!
Granted, I have a real "test" coming up with our Minnesota Music Educator's Conference on Thursday: the community band to which I belong is a featured performer at the first evening concert. And I'll have ample opportunity to truly test this mouthpiece during the Rolf Rudin, the Frank Ticheli, Karl King and others! But I must say: I am amazed at the Clark Fobes mouthpiece. I chose the RR on approval. I have two weeks to try it out, but I know that I am already extremely happy.
Thank you to EACH of you again for your valuable input and insights! And not only that, but the spirit of joy that you communicated with me about how much fun you have playing bass clarinet! I needed to hear that as well.
This board continues to be a terrific informational source.
All my best to you, Comrades!
Scott S
Minnesota
Post Edited (2009-02-11 10:44)
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Author: Scott S
Date: 2009-02-16 20:31
Colleagues on the Forum and Experts of this Thread:
The MMEA (Minnesota Music Educators Conference) performance of my group, The Grand Symphonic Winds of St. Paul, Minnesota went very well. And I still love my Clark Fobes RR mouthpiece.
Any of you who use this mouthpiece who could comment on reed strength and brand would be appreciated. I am experimenting with different tone factors through the chalumeau, clarion, and altissimo registers. The difference between 2.5 and 3.0 Vandorens is significant. I would welcome your expertise on your reed choices and why.
That being said, if you have had enough of this thread and don't care to comment, you have already been most helpful.
Thanks again!
Scott S
Minnesota
Post Edited (2009-02-18 10:55)
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