 The Fingering Forum
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Author: TorusTubarius
Date: 2003-01-30 18:14
I just figured out what bothers me about when people say such and such an instrument is "in C". I left an extensive post about this earlier, but here's a clearer (and equally extensive) version... I think.
When you say an instrument is pitched in a certain key, what you're really saying is this:
Thanks to Theobald Boehm, there is a standard nomenclature for the fingerings on a woodwind instrument. You always call (except for clarinets in the chalemeau(sp?) register) 123|12- an E, 123|--- a G, 12-|--- and A, etc. However because you're playing on what are essentially pipes of different lengths, the names of actual notes that are being sounded are a certain interval away from the note names we assign each fingering. (Actual notes being pitches tuned to A=440Hz.)
So for example on an Eb alto sax, you may finger 123|--- which Boehm would call a "G", but your tuner which tunes exclusively to A=440 would call a "Bb". The Bb here that the alto is sounding is the Bb just below middle C on the piano, while the note being fingered is the G, second line in the staff. If you compare these two notes, you find they are a major sixth apart; this is that "certain interval" I mentioined above. Therefore you can say that since the alto sax plays notes that are written a major sixth above the actual pitch, the alto sax is pitched a major sixth lower than than the standard, given that the assigned fingering names are held constant. Similarly, in order to play that same Bb, a tenor sax plays a third space-C (a ninth above), and the bari sax plays a G on top of the staff (a thirteenth above).
My problem is this:
For convenience sake, we call again for example the alto sax an Eb alto sax. An Eb is a major sixth, that "certain interval" away from a C, and is the note an alto sax will sound when you finger a written C on that horn. In a sense what we're doing is electing this C-Eb relationship to represent the relationship between each fingered note on the alto sax (the C in that case) and the actual pitch being sounded (the Eb a major sixth below in that case). The choice of this relationship makes the most sense since we name our notes around the key of C, however it is still an arbitrary choice. For instance, why not relate the actual pitch to the alto sax's fingered F? When you finger an F on the alto, you get an Ab a major sixth below. Therefore you could say the alto sax is an Ab instrument relative to it's fingered F, in much the same way we call it an Eb instrument relative to it's fingered C. Similarly you could call it a Bb instrument relative to G, a B instrument relative to Ab, a <i>C instrument</i> relative to A.
Each choice is every bit as correct and descriptive as the other because what is being held constant is the <i>interval</i> between the notes. The <i>relationship</i> is always the same. However it would be unwieldy indeed to describe the alto sax as "the saxophone tuned a major sixth lower than actual pitch", and we instead choose one interval, the C-Eb, and name it the Eb alto saxophone. Perhaps a more apposite name would be "Eb alto saxophone relative to C", but again that's getting a bit cumbersome. (Can you imagine that written at the top left on your music?)
This is why I think it sounds so stupid to call an instrument "pitched in C". In this case, there is no interval which needs description, other than a unison. To me, calling an instrument pitched in C therefore sounds redundant. When a flute or oboe plays in C, it's playing in C; when it plays in Gb, it's playing in Gb. When you say it's "pitched in C", it almost sounds like you're saying C is the only key it can play in or something! This is because I always look for the relationship, that "certain interval", and with an instrument "pitched in C" there is none... "so what are you talking about?" says my brain.
Anyway those are my thoughts.
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2003-01-31 05:11
I think for convenience sake, we call them C instruments because that is the note that is produced when a C is played. It does sound redundant, but techincally a unison is an interval, so I suppose that would apply. I think if there were no transposing there wouldn't, (and shouldn't) be a need for Eb this Bb that. However, since Boehm came up with transposing instruments ( not a bad thing at that), I suppose calling non-transposing instruments " in c" is just a way of giving us a "place". We could also stem off into how tubas always play written pitches, but are "pitched" differently(BBb, Eb, F etc...) but that's for another post.
D-oboe
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Author: TorusTubarius
Date: 2003-01-31 05:22
Wait, the only way a tuba could play written pitches and be pitched in different keys is if the fingerings for a tuba in one pitch are not the same as those of another in a different pitch. I don't understand.
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Author: guest
Date: 2003-01-31 05:26
that's correct. ALMOST every instrument that uses the bass clef plays concert pitch. they ahve to learn new fingerings if they use an instruemtn that is in a different key. a tuba that is pitchted in C, for an orchestra maybe, would have to learn new fingerings if he switched to a Bb for a different band. this is true for trombones and euphoniums as well.
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Author: Gnomon
Date: 2003-01-31 06:51
I don't think it was Boehm who thought up transposing instruments. He worked almost exclusively on flutes which are non-transposing.
It is interesting, though, that recorders were invented before transposing had been thought up. Although they come in a number of pitches, they all play in concert pitch. This means that the same fingering is called by different names depending on which recorder you are playing. Recorders in C are called that because they play a C when all the holes are covered. It is the bottom note. Recorders in F play an F when all the holes are covered.
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Author: TorusTubarius
Date: 2003-01-31 07:38
No it wasn't Boehm who came up with transposing instruments, but it is his fingering system that we use now as the standard from which we transpose.
Also, I had no idea tuba players had to learn a whole new set of fingerings each time they wanted to switch to a tuba pitched in a different key. Seems like it makes things unnecessarily complicated to me.
That does remind me though of something else I thought of back when I used to play the sousaphone many moons ago. I noticed that the fingerings I was using were the same as trumpet fingerings if you consider the concert pitches produced by Bb trumpets. Like there's an open Bb on the sousaphone, which Bb trumpets call an open C but is really a concert Bb like the sousaphone, and first finger Eb, which the Bb trumpets call first finger F but is really a concert Eb like the sousaphone, etc. So in this case what I was wondering is why bother calling the trumpets Bb instruments at all? I mean after all I learned the fingerings as corresponding to concert pitch, so why couldn't the trumpet players just do the same?
Then it dawned on me the fingerings Bb trumpet players learn are actually the fingerings of the orchestral "C trumpet" which sets the standard for trumpets pitched any other way. If trumpet players learned the fingerings like they are played on the tuba (with open Bb's and so forth), then that would in fact make orchestral trumpets D instruments because the new fingering for C (first and third finger) now sounds as a D on that trumpet.
At least that's my theory--articulated as well as possible given how tired I am right now. Perhaps some trumpet player out there could confirm or deny this.
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2003-02-02 05:05
That is quite interesting actually. If you get the entire brass section of a concert band to play a Bb scale all their fingers will press the same keys.(not trombones obviously.) I find there nothing really sensible to say about transposing instruments, aside from the fact that you only have to learn one set of fingerings. I think that's what we should leave it at.
D-oboe
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