 The Doublers BBoard
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Author: oboesax
Date: 2011-08-02 19:23
I was wondering if those of you who have had experience playing in a pit orchestra with high school age musicians might have some advice/answers for us.
Daughter just finished playing 1st pit for a musical where she was paid. (She's performed in eight musicals now). The other pit musicians were each paid $100 a service; she was paid less because she's a student (age 15). At what point will she get paid as much as the others? I can understand her being paid less than the others while she is still learning, but once she catches up and perhaps passes some of the adults, I think she should be paid the full amount, regardless of age.
She is getting calls from other musical directors now for more shows, presumably because she plays all the woodwinds and is an oboe soloist. I can understand that community theaters have limited budgets, but on the other hand she needs to earn money for college.
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Author: rcnelson
Date: 2011-08-03 17:32
I think $100 a service is a lot of money. I'm happy when I can get $25 a service including rehearsals, I am almost old enough to be your daughters grand father and have done 25 shows over the years.
If she can make enough money playing shows to pay for college, then I congratulate both you and her.
Ron
Selmer Mark VI tenor (1957), Selmer Mark VII alto (1975)
Buescher True Tone soprano (1924), Selmer CL210 Bb Clarinet, Gemeinhardt 3SHB Flute, Pearl PFP105 Piccolo
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Author: oboesax
Date: 2011-08-03 22:32
rnelson, if everyone in your pit is getting $25 a service, then everyone is being paid the same. I am learning that pay varies from city to city and even within the same region. My daughter played 7 musicals before this one, all in high schools and all without pay.
She wants to attend a conservatory, and they cost so much! If she could earn real pay doing these musicals she might be able to save a good amount toward her education. I'm just wondering what the justification behind either not paying or paying students less than adults is. Is it because they are not as experienced in their playing, or is it because it's assumed students don't need to earn as much as adults do?
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Author: oboeidaho
Date: 2011-08-04 00:19
I'd say if she is doing a professional job, she should get paid the same. I must say $100/service is a lot more than I have ever gotten in a pit, but we aren't in a big city. Is this a union pit? I'm not sure if there is an age requirement for joining the union, but that might be the next step; as they may be hiring her on some sort of special student deal. Good luck!
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Author: oboesax
Date: 2011-08-04 00:52
oboeidaho, that's what I was wondering, if she is getting hired on a special student deal. Our state is non-union, but I'm not sure how the nearby neighboring states that have unions affect it. We are in a large metropoliitan area, and there seem to be quite a number of community theaters as well as professional theaters. I had not thought about having her join the union, at least not yet; I thought she could get more experience playing community theater for now.
My daughter would also like to get $100 a service! the first MD told her musicians get 100, students get $25. The next MD just told her students get $20 a service. The others haven't said yet as they haven't sent the contracts over yet. I do know that $100 a service is pretty standard pay here for high school and community theater work. Many of the other musicians in the pits she's played in have been military band professionals, so I know they're in a union.
There are two problems I have with theaters paying her less--she gets paid less, and theaters might be more likely to hire her over a professional so they can save money, thereby reducing the number of real paying music jobs available.
I think, and my daughter thinks that she needs more experience before joining a union. But it might be a good idea to get informed in advance.
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Author: rcnelson
Date: 2011-08-04 12:35
It's very possible that the specific theater she did the show for does have 2 pay scales, 1 for "pros" and 1 for students and that is simply their policy. If she is really worth $100 a service and is as good as her fellow pit partners, then I wouldn't worry too much about the cost of a conservatory/high end music school education. Scholarships should be coming your way.
I do agree that if she plays her book as well as the rest, then she should get the same.
Ron
Selmer Mark VI tenor (1957), Selmer Mark VII alto (1975)
Buescher True Tone soprano (1924), Selmer CL210 Bb Clarinet, Gemeinhardt 3SHB Flute, Pearl PFP105 Piccolo
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Author: oboesax
Date: 2011-08-04 14:34
I called the local union. They said they do not cover any of the community theaters, and that $100 a service is far below the union musician's minimum wage. The professional musicians playing with my daughter are either not in the union, or they are violating union rules.
If she joins the union, she won't be able to play in any commmunity theaters.
Regarding scholarships for conservatories, those are few and far between. It is not like it was several decades ago, when my brother for example got a full music scholarship at Northwestern with only a 3.5 GPA. The New England Conservatory of Music, for example, gives no merit money out of its university Tufts to music majors. At most she'll get $10,000 to $15,000 a year scholarship, which will still leave us short about $20,000 a year.
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Author: rcnelson
Date: 2011-08-04 17:28
I know what I would do....I am not sure where you live but there are many good music programs in state schools that are affordable. If she is successful at the undergrad level, then grad school is next and maybe that is when she should go to one of the top schools with perhaps an assistantship. If she is talented, then where she goes for an undergrad degree really doesn't matter EXCEPT for the amount of competition she will face.
Just an idea. The best of everything to your daughter.
Ron
Selmer Mark VI tenor (1957), Selmer Mark VII alto (1975)
Buescher True Tone soprano (1924), Selmer CL210 Bb Clarinet, Gemeinhardt 3SHB Flute, Pearl PFP105 Piccolo
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Author: Jaysne
Date: 2011-08-10 03:27
This has nothing to do with how good she is. It has to do with how old she is.
It's all about experience. To pay a 15 year old the same amount as an adult professional is disrespectful to the adults. Someone her age should be happy to play for free! I was happy to play shows for free when I was in my early 20s, just to get the experience. From there, I started getting paying gigs.
I have played as a paid professional for many high schools that also used their student musicians. None of them got paid, nor should they have. It was just one of their school activities.
No way would an MD hire her over an adult professional "to save money." MDs feel more comfortable with fellow adults than with kids. MDs know that adults are going to be responsible and have no trouble getting to gigs. I would not feel the same way about someone who can't even drive yet. (And saving money for college by playing shows? No one does community theatre to make money. I'm happy if I'm able to pay a couple of bills with show pay.)
Yes, $100 per service for an adult is fairly standard for community theatre. I have never even heard of the union being involved in community theatre, and I've lived and played in three states. Unless you have a strong union (most places don't) then you generally don't want to join it because it will stunt the number of jobs you can play. That is, unless you are a full-time professional and are clearly head and shoulders above most people on your instrument. A 15 year old cannot be a full-time professional, no matter how good she is.
As far as when she will be paid the same, probably not until she's out of college. As I said, it's a respect thing. I've been practicing and playing for almost three times as long as she's been alive, and have experienced much more musically than a 15 year old could ever imagine or play on her horn. That counts for something.
Never fear, as long as she keeps up her practice and plays out as much as possible, and takes as many gigs (especially free ones) as possible, and keeps getting older, then eventually she will be paid just like the big boys.
Post Edited (2011-08-10 12:52)
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Author: oboesax
Date: 2011-08-11 19:05
Jaysne, I appreciate your viewpoint and I can understand why some people feel that way. Apparently people have different viewpoints on this. Thinking back now (way back) I recall getting gigs that paid $75- $100 per service around when I was 19-20, along with my brother who was three years younger than me. These were mostly church gigs and large services. I don't recall anyone having a problem with a 16-year old getting paid the same as everyone else. We'd already performed for free for years--my brother was 10 when we started performing flute and oboe duets publically--and everyone knew we could sight read whatever was put in front of us. My daughter is like that, only she can play more instruments than I could.
I agree that high school students should perform for free at their own high school. My daughter not only plays at every band, jazz band, orchestra, choral concert and musical, but she also plays whichever woodwind the directors need.
But reliability is not necessarily correlated with age. My daughter has frequently noted how a number of professionals will chat, walk around and more during a performance from the pit orchestra. She sees the musical director staring at them. during one of these performances, one of the pros was trying to see how well he could blow on two instruments at the same time. The MD stared at him, looked over at my obedient daughter and asked him "who's the kid here?".
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Author: Jaysne
Date: 2011-08-12 01:10
oboesax, thanks for the reply. As you probably know, I speak from my experience and what I've seen in the 30 or so years I've been playing shows. The high school kids, with very few exceptions, have been pretty bad musicians, and they were doing it just for the experience--or simply because the MD needed warm bodies. The adults I have played with, for the most part, have been superb and responsible musicians.
Based on this and other posts I've read about your daughter, she does sound like one of a kind for a 15 year old. I remember one HS show I did that had a sax player who could have played circles around me--and she was a HS junior! That was quite humbling. But she was also one of a kind.
If I heard or played with your daughter, I might feel differently. But in general, I feel that "kid" musicians should be treated differently than adults, simply out of respect for the elders.
Jim
Post Edited (2011-08-12 02:46)
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Author: HaynesMan
Date: 2011-08-21 01:57
I've worked shows all my career-- most notably clarinet for a production of
'Fiddler' when I was 14. We were paid for the service, and paid equally. If your daughter is a union musician, she legally shouldn't have these problems. I would highly recommend getting her union card.
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Author: oboesax
Date: 2011-08-21 16:52
HaynesMan, when I called the local union, they said they didn't cover any of the community theaters. They only cover some of the professional theaters. Plus, union wage here is around $300 a service on up. None of the community theaters would hire my daughter if she said she needed $300 a service instead of the $25 they were offering her. But like you, I started earning pay from music at age 14, and I got the same the adults did.. Have times changed that much?
There seems to be a big difference in pay between union pay and "right-to-work" area pay. Where can I learn more about this issue? I tried reading up on it on the union websites but they didn't really address this issue.
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Author: kimber
Date: 2011-08-31 17:25
Maybe she should adjust her opinion of the theatre jobs. Consider their value in terms on the non-fiscal rewards of resume-building and networking opportunities. To counter this...seek out the paying opportunities where she can set her price...hire out as church soloist during the holidays, weddings, anniversary parties, etc or start a reed-making business. Would she be willing to try teaching a few beginner students? Start well-rounding her business/entreprenourial skills.
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Author: oboesax
Date: 2011-09-01 14:38
kimber, I think you've got the right approach. My daughter has already played a few jobs where she was paid--art gallery receptions, and has been hired as a 2nd oboe several times for various orchestras. She has her first paying gig at a church next week, and can hopefully turn that into more regular work. I think it's not too early to work on business skills either. Thanks.
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Author: Wind, Woman, and Song
Date: 2011-11-13 06:06
Rent, mortgage, gas, auto insurance, health insurance , dental insurance, dues, business expenses, uncovered medical and dental bills, utility bills, clothing, groceries, instrument upkeep, children's expenses, (School, clothing, food,) etc.
The list of "adult" expenses goes on and on.
While I was also "that gifted young musician" that your daughter is, taking the bus downtown at 16 to play for a major Musical Theater group in town, I also, as an adult, understand why the pay scale is different. It may not seem fair at the time, but it is totally understandable. Like the other post said, build the resume! I have played with some very gifted high school students as well as some very difficult ones (And their parents!) Always be prepared. Learn your part. Be respectful and courteous. The cream will rise to the top. One of my favorite pit drummers is now getting paid same wage as adults and he's 17. He put 3 years into the "freebie" arena and it is paying off. He also has one of the top teachers in town, which really helps. Teach, play for all types of music and events, and build a strong reputation of excellence. You will then have your phone ringing non-stop. Good Luck!
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Author: Joseph Tomasso
Date: 2011-11-26 12:42
A few short comments (even though the post is way out of date now!)
I did only a few musical theatre/community performances when I was her age out of my high school. Most of the people playing were either adult amateurs (not bad musicians though) or advanced students like myself. I never thought to ask what the pay rates were for others, and I definitely would not these days either. Pay is private and unless someone brings it up, it is certainly none of my business. Respect for youth, elders, or peers, I just don't ask! When your daughter gets older, and if she feels she is getting treated poorly, I'm sure she is going to be responsible to handle her affairs. If she can play maturely, she must be mature after all.
I can say that playing more that one instrument has earned me a "doubling" fee both in the orchestral setting and in the pit settings. I did a musical last year where I was covering two books and had Alto/Tenor sax, Bb and Bass clarinet, oboe/Ehorn, Flute, and two numbers on bassoon. They gave me pay and a half (which was awesome) but I would not have expected it over the guy sitting next to me playing only clarinet (although it was extremely comical). Who is to say my playing is more valuable or my time is more valuable? Sure, I have more equipment, but it is also possible clarinet only guy put in 10,000 hours of practice on one instrument and I put in 8,000 on 5. (although this was not the case)
Finally, my comment is about the cost of school. A few performances here and there are likely to cover her costs in reed making equipment, but there is simply no way she would be able to gig enough to pay for her own college. Even if she was transplanted right to broadway on a permanent seat without having to take the years of national tours and subbing, the major conservatories simply charge too much money to generate that kind of cash in 3 years. The best bet is to get a solid, lower cost education (check out ASU/FSU/Indiana as three schools with excellent oboe programs with extremely qualified conservatory level teachers) and focus on the big name conservatory for a Masters program.
I studied at University of Illinois which has a world class saxophone program, but also had chicago symphony faculty for oboe. I was also able to take additional lessons with members of the lyric opera on clarinet when needed. I had friends at DePaul paying triple my tuition for the same teacher. Do some research before committing to NEC (where I have had two very strong musician friends of mine go only to drop out and return to school at another program after facing the high tuition bills).
And before anyone scoffs off going to a state school, check the US College Ranking of music schools. UIUC is #10 (ahead of a few big name conservatories with much higher costs!).
Although most important she gets along with her teacher, there are a lot of great lower cost options. Keep in mind, $100 a service isn't going to pay student loans very quickly.
If she's really serious about doubling, she should also try to find a teacher that doubles. I teach quite a few college students here that take clarinet/saxophone with their main professors, but also see me regularly to get some of the advice only a doubler can give about juggling both instruments. No oboe doublers outside of myself in this city though Well, unless you count my 7th grader who does lessons on both
Best of luck, your daughter will do well if you let her grow!
Bachelor of Music, Sax/Clarinet Performance (2005, 06)
Master of Music, Multiple Woodwind Performance (2008)
Master of Music, Oboe Performance (2013)
Gainesville Chamber Orchestra (Clarinet)
University of Florida 2010-2011(Visiting Lecturer in Woodwi
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Author: oboesax
Date: 2011-11-26 19:32
Thanks for the advice and comments.
My daughter is currently finishing up one musical and will do one in December. After that, she wants to focus on her concerto competitions, practicing and performances. These past two musicals she wasn't paid much, but was paid the same as the adults.
About college, yes it is sad it costs so much. I did pay for my own graduate school myself, half of which came from gigging and teaching flute lessons. But that was 30 years ago. We'll certainly consider a lot of schools when the time comes.
One of my daughter's sax teachers is a doubler. Also she took a lesson from the top oboe doubler in our area. But at this point, she doesn't plan on getting a degree in doubling.
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