 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: oboist2
Date: 2019-04-23 01:44
I would be interested to hear of the experiences of anyone that plays old oboes by choice. I have an 1891 Loree, a 1910 Robert d'amore (Couesnon), a 1930s Louis Cor Anglais and a 3030s Louis oboe. They are all thumbplate instruments and open ring system. I play them because they are lighter than modern instruments ( I have rheumatoid arthritis) and I like the sould of open holed instruments - they seem a little brighter and vibrant. The wood on all the instruments is superb, and overall, the keywork is ergonomic - actually enabling sliding from one key to another, a little more than on some contemporary instruments that have more fingering options. I have used some of them in chamber orchestra settings, and dont have any issue with projection - but have not tried them playing in a full symphony orchestra.
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2019-04-24 20:35
I am no expert and have not played instruments of the vintage you are talking about. What I see is extreme difference of opinion out there about whether an oboe gets "blown out" or not. What I believe is that as long as the bore remains true, "blown out" is a myth. If the bore gets messed up, well, it's not "blown out" but damaged. Not being young either, I got a Bhob to take the weight and it helps a lot.
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Author: oboist2
Date: 2019-04-25 02:01
Personally, I am of the persuasion that instruments probably don't get blown out - but I am speaking from the perspective of having older instruments where the wood was aged much longer than it is today, and at that time, the makers could slect the very best wood. I did play on a Fossati for many years and that instrument was made in 1989. I played a lot on it, and was doing semi professional work at that time. When I sold the oboe a couple of years ago, I still believed it played as well as the day I bought it. Regular servicing and looking after the instrument well certainly does help.
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Author: fromsfca
Date: 2019-04-26 06:48
Oboes (and clarinets) played professionally by symphony players, say 5+ hours a day do get blown out, and are regularly replaced. Consider the constant change in the bore adjusting to breathe at 96 degrees and air at 68.
Players I know complain of subtle changes affecting intonation.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2019-04-26 21:31
My regular Oboe is now a Howarth S2 which is an open hole English Thumb Plate System. It was made in 1955 and is in excellent condition. Not only is the wood in good condition but it has solid sterling silver keywork.
Skyfacer
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-05-03 01:42
I have seen some old B&H Imperial, Louis and Howarth oboes doing excellent service by professional orchestral oboists well into the early 2000s.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: fromsfca
Date: 2019-05-03 02:06
Every older oboe is not blown out....however, there are oboes (and clarinets) played by professionals that are blown out.
My prior oboe was a 1986 Loree which had a lovely tone and had extremely very consistent intonation...better than the new Loree I replaced it with (due to improved keywork, not bore).
I know other players with 30 (or more) year old instruments that sound marvelous. However, I also know professional oboe and clarinet players who change instruments every few years, because the old gray mare ain't what it used to be.
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2019-05-03 18:36
...and that is great for amateurs, because even though they think the old grey mares aren't what they used to be, they're still plenty good for the amateurs to pick up used....
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: fromsfca
Date: 2019-05-03 18:47
Maybe....A star jockey may send a horse to pasture which is plenty fast enough for an amateur; or may have a broken leg. I would strongly advise double-checking intonation, which is what colleagues have reported as the biggest problem with blown instruments.
The local symphony oboe players just changed instruments (feeling theirs were blown out)...I should have reached out and tried them to confirm for myself how much life was left in them.
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Author: KJC
Date: 2019-05-20 00:37
I don't believe there is any significant change to the bore of an oboe over time--only if it's damaged through cracking, abuse or is a "lemon". What does wear out over time is the mechanisms: pads, keys, springs, rods, and screws. I think that rather than getting an overhaul to fix the mechanisms, oboes are often sold and and new ones bought because the mechanisms are starting to wear out with use and owners call it "blown" out. Also, when all professionals around you replace their oboes every 5 to 7 years, it probably also makes some insecure to still be using an old one and they may see differences they attribute to being "blown" out that just aren't there. Moreover, it keeps oboe companies in business to keep making new oboes, right? So, you're not going to get any voluble arguments from them against the "blown" out theory either which is why this argument will never go away.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-05-20 02:23
Only the other day I heard about someone who cut up a used Selmer USA wooden oboe and a relatively new one to compare the difference in the cellular structure of the wood on both new and 'blown out' ones under a microscope.
Only that's inconclusive as one piece of grenadilla is going to be different to another. And how can anyone tell if the cell structure changes when you can't exactly dissect the same oboe top joint when new and compare it to several years down the line when you've already destroyed it the first time round?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hotboy
Date: 2019-05-20 23:54
In my experience, "blown-out" refers to three things:
- Change in scale intonation
- Change in note stability
- Change in blowing resistance
I have experienced several Lorees whose scales changed over a period of 10+ years so that they weren't as dependable to play in tune as they were when younger than five years. Also, an older oboe can suffer from notes that are variable in pitch depending on how hard one blows. For a professional who needs to depend on consistency of intonation, these are unacceptable faults.
Due to visually imperceptable changes in the bore from heat, moisture, and swabbing, the blowing resistance changes over time. This is most noticeable between the time when an instrument is new and when it is broken in, about one to two years after manufacture. Then, over the following years, the resistance can change, which necessitates the player to adjust reeds to compensate, which is an unnecessary burden for a professional player.
Also, old oboes can be plagued by problems such as gathering water in vents due to microscopic bore wear and keywork shifting due to plating wear. I have not played on an oboe older than 20 years without one or more of these problems.
Amateurs who have difficulty playing in tune, getting good tone, and making reeds may not notice these subtle changes in an instrument, but advanced players certainly do.
I don't know about comparing the difference in the cellular structure of the wood...this seems like a red herring to me.
Dane
Bay Area, California
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2019-05-26 23:18
I need to learn how to make reeds from these pros. Their reeds must be amazingly consistent to sense the changes caused by plating wear!
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2019-06-01 02:54
This thread prodded me to do something I've been meaning to do for a while--try out a bunch of oboes, both new and used. I drove up to RDG Woodwinds in Hollywood yesterday and tried out 4 "just arrived this week" new Loree Royal model oboes and 6 used models. I had my tuner ready and watched it intensely on scale after scale, oboe after oboe. I couldn't make out a clear difference in the intonation of the used oboes vs. the new ones--the typical Loree problem notes (E & F on top of the treble clef) were pretty consistently troublesome on all the oboes. Some of the oboes were a little less stable in pitch with change in air pressure than others, but this did not seem to correlate with age. But then, age probably doesn't correlate strongly with hours played. One of the used oboes definitely was more resistant, but many others were not. The used oboes had serial numbers ranging from PGXX to TMXX. The new oboes were all U_XX.
One could certainly make a case for the idea that the new oboes would have played better after being broken in, but for me, there was no clear advantage for the new oboes, and the one I took home with me (after paying for it, of course) was a used one. It was one of the younger used ones, so maybe there is something to be said for oboes deteriorating with age. As a scientist, however, I do not feel as though I have sufficient empirical evidence to conclude that old oboes are to be avoided.
One additional data point--I took my old (NYXX) AK c+3 with me to compare. It was a little bit wilder in pitch and sagged a bit in pitch in some of the short-pipe notes, but it sounded to my ears as a rival to many of the Royals I compared it to. I'm used to compensating for the pitch problems on that instrument, and I might have a little more freedom in reedmaking with the more evenly-pitched Royal that I bought. I don't, however, anticipate any director or quartet-mate hearing me on my new instrument and saying--My Gosh! Did you get a new instrument? That sounds wonderful! (I am keeping the old AK because I still love it, flaws and all. Every oboe I played yesterday, including the one I bought, has some weaknesses.)
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2019-06-01 09:40
I have watched that Utube video and have typed in the comments "Putting the lie to the myth that all older wooden Oboes get or are 'blown out'
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2019-06-13 14:54)
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2019-06-11 08:27
I'm a Professional oboist and have probably played 200 oboes which are 50 years or older.
In my experience, maybe 30 or 40 of them were "blown out" to the point that were not usable at a high level. This would mean that the interior has lost it's resistance or the left hand notes are too high due to time, age, and warpage. I think blown out is a legitimate situation. This is not saying that they can't be played, but you don't have the confidence in the instrument that you would a newer instrument.
Of those 200, I'd say 80-100 of them have physical issues that could be fixed, but would require some serious work. For example the toneholes might not be level or chipped and therefore will never be able to seal properly unless recut (which could change the acoustics of the instrument if not properly done correctly.) Most commonly the silver is just worn to the point that the instrument doesn't want to stay in adjustment, or the wood doesn't want to hold the silver consistently.
Currently I play on a B series de Lancie model which is probably 60 years old by now. It's a solid instrument without the defects mentioned previously. i love it for it's responsiveness and focus in sound that I haven't found in any other instrument before.
My two cents.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: tgenns
Date: 2022-03-28 04:56
I used to be skeptical about oboes being “blown out”, until it happened to me. I had been playing for over 40 years on my old C series Loree and started to have problems with the stability in the low notes (e flat and lower). When I tried to play them soft I would get a very fast fluttering nanny-goat wobbling sound, a horrific sound! With great difficulty (and prayers in real time!) this could sometimes be avoided by opening up my embouchure / throat more, but basically the oboe had become unusable because of this. I took it to a repairman who measured the size of the top joint bore and said it had become large over the years and was the “classic blown out oboe”. He recommended that I get a liner put in the top joint, which I did. This corrected the wobbling problem in the low register. Also, certain intonation problems were fixed, for example the middle e, f#, and g which were previously sharp, were now in tune. It also fixed the fourth ledger line G above the staff, which before was almost impossible to get to speak without busting a gut, but it now plays easily. Also, the middle to high range notes are much more stable in pitch with the new liner. As for resistance, I mainly notice that there is more resistance in the lower range with the liner. I have been trying out other oboes over the last few years, but I still like my C series Loree the best and will probably keep using it as my primary oboe. For me it is just much easier to be expressive and play on than the other more modern professional oboes on the market today.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-03-29 00:43
The term 'blown out' should just be binned as there's no physical way that can happen as the air column isn't exerting any undue pressure within the bore and the airflow isn't going to cause any abrasion to the bore surface. It's an open-ended tube, not a sealed container and therefore can't retain any air pressure at all.
'Worn out' is a far better term if the bore has undergone physical changes and that can happen if you've used abrasive mops or pullthroughs and pull them through the bore with a lot of speed and force which will eventually damage the bore over time.
It makes me cringe seeing people whip their pullthroughts through the bore at breakneck speed and also allow their mops and pullthroughs to lie on the floor or stuff them in their case cover pockets once they're done with them where they'll pick up all manner of dust and grit.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tgenns
Date: 2022-03-29 01:07
Chris,
I agree, there is a terminology problem here, and "worn out" is a better description. When I looked at the repairman with a puzzled look on my face when he said "blown out", as how can air do this, he said "the feather."
Also, down with pull through swabs for the reason you mention! -- I quit using those many years ago.
Tom
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-03-29 15:55
I still use pullthroughs but don't leave them scrunched up in the case cover or let them touch the floor if I can help it as well as periodically washing them.
I store them in the bell after use and fold them up to maintain their full width once unfurled - fold them in half, then in half again, then roll them up, then fold the rolled up pullthrough over and wrap the cords around it to make it into a nice tight bundle that stores in the bell in the case.
Some billets of grenadilla do have hidden natural flaws in them and when they're in the bore bore, they can worsen with time and even resemble pot holes in the bore which will cause tone, tuning and response problems. I've also seen manufacturing errors when toneholes have been drilled too deep and into the opposite side of the bore leaving divots which aren't ideal. The worst I've seen was on a Markardt oboe where the 8ve vent holes had been cut into the bore right at the top of the top joint which probably accounts for some wild intonation and weakness in the top register, especially from high A to C.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hotboy
Date: 2022-03-30 01:36
Chris P wrote:
> I store them in the bell after use and fold them up to maintain
> their full width once unfurled - fold them in half, then in
> half again, then roll them up, then fold the rolled up
> pullthrough over and wrap the cords around it to make it into a
> nice tight bundle that stores in the bell in the case.
That's exACTly what I do, except I rather relaxedly wrap the cords, which makes for a quicker unfurling but the bundle still fits in the bell.
I often show this technique to my students and ask them to do the same...
Dane
Bay Area, California
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2022-06-20 01:51
That is fascinating because it brings up something when I had on trial, a C series Loree Cor. It had that "fluttering sound" on the low E. At the time I was taking lessons with the best teacher I have ever had for anything, and he was / is, IMO something of a genius with the mechanics of things. He instantly said, " I bet that's why they are selling it," and remarked that such fluttering was a function of something wrong in the upper joint, not the lower where the symptom was. He took a few minutes to adjust something in the upper joint and the fluttering went away. I kept the Cor, which was VERY nice. The person who has that Cor now plays it regularly, more than ten years later, and there is no fluttering. (I have a Laubin now, courtesy of extreme good luck.)
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