 The Oboe BBoard
|
Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2018-03-10 01:34
I know that Anthony Baines book Woodwind Instruments and Their History is kinda dated now but below one of his Oboe fingering charts he states this " The top two notes are included for completeness only; they are difficult and composers scarcely ever write for them" These are the top G# and A .Elsewhere (Page 95) he states that both the Germanic and French Oboes go equally well up to the top G.
It's been my practical experience that as far as the top G in concerned, this in not quite correct. In practice , the top G is NEVER an easy and practical not to sound compared to the high notes lower down. The top F# is reasonably easy enough to sound out but the G is a real 'tight' note. This was even so even on the S55c dual system Howarth that I had until recently.
So as far as I"m concerned, the practical range of the Oboe is up to F natural with F# also being reasonably easy but not as easy as F.
I'm heard some Oboists claim that they can get that top G easy without a third octave key, but if that's the case why this 'desperate' need for a third octave key? You'd think two octave keys would be enough.
Here are the fingerings that I use for the top G
< is half hole. - is no TP and Sp is the spatula.
8ve TP xox | xoo (Baines) 8ve -x (+Sp)oo | xoo C (Baines) 8ve - x(+ Sp) ox | xoo
For top F#
8ve - < xo | xoo C (C#) Baines) 8ve TP xxo | xoo C 8ve - xxo | xxFo and also the fingering for F natural plus the LH side key.
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2018-03-10 01:37)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: oboist2
Date: 2018-03-10 02:19
For myself, I have only had to go to top G# in written music, but some contemporary music goes a bit higher. My first oboe teacher regularly went up to the C above that, and Marcel Tabuteau could play a top C up until the time he died. I too find the G# a bit of a struggle. I t was easy enough on my Fossati that I used to play on, but much more difficult now I am playing on older instruments so generally I only practice scales up to the top G. This may increase. If you play a lot of contemporary music ( from memory, the Sarabande movement of Gordon Jacobs Divertimento for Wind Octet in E flat, goes up to top A in the first oboe ( however it is a long time since I have played the work and I was playing second oboe at the time so I may be mistaken).
As far as the third octave key is concerned, it can, if adjusted correctly, facilitate the higher notes and it also offers a few easier fingering combinations, and I do miss it even though my instruments work fine without it. Basically it depends what you are playing and with whom. Certainly composers these days, especially with avant garde so if you are playing this music, it makes sense to extend the range- and it is certainly possible.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2018-03-10 03:29
It is telling that the two great Oboe concertos by Mozart and Haydn only go up to D above the second leger line. Mozart's Sonata goes up to F above the second leger line. These works of course where written when the Oboe (Baroque) didn't actually have an octave key let alone two of them. The high register was attained by the embouchure on the reed. Must have been hard work.
It is also very interesting that the two tutor books that I have hardly ever go up to F#/G. Rubanks Selected Studies for Oboe (actually identical to the Saxophone book) has one solitary high F# in it (page 33) and even then an alternative F# is written one octave lower. This book is fairly heavy going as the studies are very advanced and go as far as 6 flats / 6 sharps.
Then there is the tutor for Oboe by Otto Langey which also has advanced studies in it including extracts from the classical era symphonies ect. It has only two solitary high Gs and they are on page 52 in the chromatic scale studies. On that same page there are four high F#s two of which appear in the Gb major study.
This tells me that even those two high notes are not really all that important in mastering the art of Oboe playing.
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2018-03-10 03:31)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: oboist2
Date: 2018-03-11 01:22
Barry, there are plenty of later oboe concertos that do go higher than the Haydn or Mozart, and the mechanism and construction of oboes has advanced to make these high notes easier. There are also quite a few pieces in the orchestral repertoire that go higher too. If you are faced in a professional orchestra with such a piece, or for that matter a piece that requires double or triple tonguing and you cant do it, you will not remain in your position very long. An oboist who wishes to remain gainfully employed, especially in today's very competitive professional music world, needs to equip himself with as many of these skills and techniques as he can. Whilst those tutor books can be useful, especially in the early days of oboe playing, ( personally I never used them or taught with them) there are a lot of studies that assist in the study of advanced fingerings, high notes, tonguing etc, eg Eugene Bozza Studies in Karnatic modes, the Silvestrini etc. Even The George Gillet ones reguarly use top F#s and G and even the occasional G#. I am now, after nearly 50 years of playing just coming to grips with double tonguing - I was fortunate, in the times where I was playing semi professionally, not to have works that required me to use it put in front of me. I used to possess a very fast single tongue, but that would not have got me out of the woods. My current teacher worked in a pit orchestra early on in his career, and had to learn to single tongue very quickly. For oldies like you and I, playing and practising the high notes probably would be a waste of time, unless we wanted to play some of the more modern works, but for an aspiring professional oboist, these tools are essential.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2018-03-11 03:29
Hi Geoff. Thank you for responding to my comments. We seem to be the only ones at this time that are using the Oboe Bulletin Board.
The one thing that I've never had any problem with is double and even triple tonguing on the Oboe. Just speaking for myself, compared to the Clarinet it's reasonable easy. Getting the extreme high notes however is not and I suspect that these notes (from high G upwards) are really not practical unless you add another (fiddly) octave key which only adds to an already over mechanised and weighty instrument. Therefore the practical written range (compass) of the Oboe is up to high F / F# The same written range of the Saxophone.
It's very telling to look at the scores of modern composers of the twentieth century when they wrote for Oboe. For example. Vaughan Williams Oboe Concerto (1944) and written for Leon Goossens. I haven't got the notation for this but by listening to it, seems to go no higher than the top F. It does ramble on a bit but enjoyable to listen to.
Then there's Richard Strauss. Oboe Concerto (1945) which only goes up to D and it's interesting when this piece modulates to D major that there's not even one high F#. Like the V. Williams work it rambles on a bit.
Carl Nielsen's Romanze for Oboe and Fantasy Pieces for Oboe (1889) No extreme high notes here either even though it's not in the twentieth century.
Samuel Barber. Canzonetta for Oboe and string orchestral. No extreme high notes which is surprising considering what he wrote for the Clarinet Concerto. And there is of course his beautiful Oboe solo in his Violin Concerto.
Saint Saens. His wonderful Oboe Sonata in D. The third movement (Molto Allegro) has high F#s and Gs that has two Ossias with those notes written an octave lower. And that movement can only be played by advanced Oboists.
But the real treasure is the Carillons for Oboe and Orchestra by Grace Mary Williams. (1965 r. 1973) A modern work that is actually very enjoyable to listen to. Check it out on Utube. I have it on a Lyrita CD. No extreme high F#s or Gs here either.
In my opinion the early 1900s where the last time composers wrote works for the Oboe that had real beauty and are very enjoyable to listen to. The same cannot be said for most Oboe pieces more recently than this, but there has been some lovely passengers in modern movie sound tracks which is where the better modern composers works are to be found these days.
Skyfacer
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-03-11 13:59
There's the practical range which should be the one composers/arrangers should adhere to, yet there's the full range which composers/arrangers shouldn't know about. Just because an oboe can play a full three 8ve range doesn't mean the extreme range should be written for.
So stick with a practical range and write in the range that suits the dynamics best, so no pp low notes like Dvorak did and use more of the lower register for solos as it's a nice register to play in with the least stress.
So for orchestral, band or chamber writing, a practical range of low B to altissimo F is sufficient, but avoiding pp low B-E and fff top C to altissimo F.
If you want to write squeaky gate music, then do what you like provided it can be played - seek advice from an oboist instead of just writing stuff out using a piano or music software as it may not always be practical or possible for a player.
Brahms didn't tend to write above high D and the Strauss concerto has a range from low C to altissimo F whch is the basic range of a Baroque oboe. Low Bb may not be possible for some players whose oboes are built to low B (eg. Vienese oboes).
A clarinet player asked me what the basic range of an oboe is. I told her it's two and a half 8ves (low Bb to high F). She then said 'That's not much', which I replied 'Saxes have that same basic range too'.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jhoyla
Date: 2018-03-11 14:55
"sqeaky gate music" - Love it!
I agree with Chris about differentiating between the "physical" range and the "musical" range of an oboe. I think that nowadays, with modern, well-adjusted instruments we should all be comfortable with anything between low Bb and altissimo F. Anything above altissimo F is asking for trouble - especially if you are attempting a unison with a flute or piccolo.
Flutter-tonguing, multiphonics etc. is purely for the noisemaker brigade and I doubt that music using these effects will survive into the next decade, while Mozart will still be played centuries from now.
J.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2018-03-11 22:08
Well from someone who is certainly not anything above a rank amateur in terms of physical technique, I think it must have to do with the oboe itself, the reed, and the player. I was told by my teacher that I had a natural high range (the opposite of brass playing, where I have a natural low range, go figure) and I could easily get that G once I learned the basics. Good instrument, good reed. All I can say is that I heard a clarinet teacher at one time telling someone in a community band that to reach the high notes it was necessary to position one's throat as if one were singing that note. That is what I did on the oboe, and the high range just came out. Not bragging. Just seeing if anyone else has noted this. Teacher could get A out of that oboe (he had to prove he could go higher than I could,) I don't think I ever tried, since at my level I simply did not need to and was just messing around.
And I agree about squeaky gate music, noise-maker brigade and other odd sounds that modern composers like to do at times (there are good modern composers, too, who write actual music!) and if it sounds ok on the computer, well it must BE ok.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: oboist2
Date: 2018-03-12 01:56
For amateurs like us, this approach is fine, but if one is wanting a position in a good professional orchestra, then you need to be much more adventurous. The problem is that very few professional oboe players use this board now.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2018-03-12 02:32
Continuing on from my last post concerning modern Oboe pieces. I have listened and watch an excellent composition on Utube entitled 'Legacy' Oboe Concerto with Orchestra by Oscar Navarro. The Oboist is Jose Antonio Masmano. It's magnificent, and I think quite possibly one of the finest modern works for Oboe. It doesn't sound atonal and the harmonies are wonderful There are no gimmicky sound effects such as multitonal notes and no weird rhythms ect. It's overall sound is like that of a 80s/90s movie score. And this is the point I'd like to make. The question is often asked. "Where have all the orchestral composers gone ? Well it's obvious. :They are earning a living composing film scores. Oscar Navarro is this kind of composer and from what I've found out, he's earning a good living with his compositions. Which is a lot more than can be said for most modern composers these days who are just writing for themselves, usually with government handouts in the form of 'cultural grants for the arts' ect. They couldn't care less if their imagined audience likes what they compose or not. Just so long as the money in the form of government grants keeps coming in.
Skyfacer
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2018-03-12 03:58
Hi EaubeanHorn. It's interesting that you say that a teacher once said the "positioning one's throat as if you were singing' sounds like good advice. Just speaking for myself I find that it's impossible to produce a good sound on the Oboe without doing that. As Anthony Baines commented in his book 'Woodwind Instruments and Their History', "The Oboe is the one woodwind instrument that's virtually impossible to sound well without felt expression' and by that I can safely assume he mean't 'singing' into it as it were. That's always been my own approach to Oboe playing and it gives wonderful results.
Still , there's that high G. I've had a good quality Howarth Oboe (S55c) dual system and have always used good quality reeds , even the ones I make myself and that G is still 'tight' I've had to let go of the S55c as, being heavily mechanised, it was getting too heavy for me. I now use a Howarth S2 thumb plate Oboe which is now 63 years old and still plays nicely.
If these extreme high notes 'just came out' as you say, it begs the question, why the desperate need for a 3rd octave key ?
Skyfacer
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2018-03-12 04:06
I mentioned the excellent modern work for Oboe by Oscar Navarro entitled "Legacy" I haven't seen the actual Oboe score for this but listening to it on Utube there is one spot in the last third of the work where Jose Antonio Masmano seems to go as high an A in some sort of chromatic run. It doesn't sound 'tidy' but it is an extreme note.
In a previous comment above I also mentioned Saint Saens Oboe Sonata in D where the Oboist hits several high F#s and Gs. They sound brilliant in a way that Trumpeters can only dream about. Check it out on Utube. One of the videos allows you to follow the score.
Skyfacer
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2018-03-13 07:17
I tend to have students practice up to high G as a regular extended scale. And I think that should be obtainable by most players, even without the third octave key (I don't have the third octave key on my instrument).
I will say that, I've had to become reacquainted with notes up to A with my Reed Quintet literature, and a few orchestral pieces (Here's looking at you, Jennifer Higdon!), but the orchestral parts above G are rare. Reed Quintet, with the lack of flute, often relies on the oboe and clarinet for this extended range.
As our instruments get more advanced, we have to grow with them. Flute players have to learn up to High D, for Prokofiev (Sonata and Symphony) and even Sondheim (Sweeney Todd, in the reed 3 book for flute/picc/clarinet/eb clarinet, ironically not in the flute/picc book!). And the same has gone for bassoon, clarinet and saxophone.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2018-03-13 07:36
Hi Concertmaster3 Thanks for the input. Have you heard Oscar Navarro's 'Legacy' for Oboe and Orchestra ? I'd love to know what the extreme high notes are. There's hardly any through most of this marvelous modern work but there seems to be several during the last section. I've posted on it my FaceBook page the performance by Jose Antonio Masmano.
Skyfacer
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2018-03-13 12:22
I sent a message to Oscar Navarro's FaceBook page asking him what is the highest note in the Oboe part of Legacy not really expecting him to respond but am delighted that he has. He informed me that the highest note is an F natural which is surprising.
Here's a major modern work for Oboe that can only be played by highly skilled Oboists and the composer considers the basic range (compass) good enough for everything he wants the Oboe to say in his composition.
The extreme notes are not essential. Another feature of this work is the magnificent writing for the French Horns. For anyone here who has not heard this work as yet, it can be found on Utube. Make sure it's being performed by the Oboists Jose Antonio Masmano. There is another Utube of this work that's being played by a concert band that often overwhelms the Oboe.
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2018-03-15 17:01)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2018-03-17 23:08
Skyfacer, on that oboe, which I had bought from my teacher, he had made the 3rd octave key inoperable. He said it was not needed and he was right, at least on that oboe. I'm currently completely out of commission due to a disabling illness and may never get back to playing instruments, but if I do, I always have liked playing 2nd parts or lower parts, so that high G will never be an issue. The most fun for me is tuba in both brass band (Eb) and orchestra. Kind of opposite use of air though.
PS I'm 68, not a sapling anymore either.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-03-18 03:04
I recently serviced an early '90s Marigaux 901 oboe which unusually didn't have a 3rd 8ve key fitted at all. The owner was getting his high notes above altissimo F no problem and asked if it was worth having one fitted.
I told him they can be fitted relatively easily if he wanted and with no other alterations needing doing as his oboe is dual system, so won't need the back 8ve touch altered for the 3rd 8ve touch to overlap (the 3rd 8ve touchpiece is set off to the left on thumbplate and dual systems). But as he can already get the high notes easily enough on it as it was, I told him there's no point if he's managed this long without it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2018-03-18 04:14
I can usually get the high F# easily enough including this fingering 8va -- XXO | XXFO (no thumb plate) with the RH C sometimes added but mostly not necessary. The other fingerings for this note are 8va -- <> XO | XOO C or (C#) and 8va Tp XXO | XOO C (the last one sometimes with 1st Finger half hole (<>) And then there is the one that is the high F natural with the RH side lever which is also fairly easy.
Skyfacer
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-03-18 14:11
On ring key conservatoire systems with two side keys, the side Ab-Bb trill key also gives a high F# (just as the side Bb key does on saxes) when used with the high F fingering.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2018-04-08 23:26
I had never heard of the Legacy concerto before...what a gorgeous piece (listening on Youtube now.) And being a horn player, I especially appreciate what I heard in the challenging horn parts. Wow.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2018-04-09 02:28
Hi EaubeauHorn. Yes it is magnificent. Unfortunately it's not available on CD as yet.
Skyfacer
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2018-04-19 18:41
It's funny that I've just stumbled upon this topic after spending my evening practising one of the Harry Potter suites (1st oboe). I play a 901 and find the short fingerings better on this oboe most of the time, and I am very glad that the short fingerings are familiar to me for the purpose of playing this work. I am most definitely relying on my 3rd octave key though!
I am having no dramas getting to F# and G, even at the end of slurred runs, though it seems a bit ridiculous as the 2nd oboe is 8vb and I wind up in unison with the flutes and Eb clarinet (thankfully all strong players with relatively good tuning). I agree with Chris's reference to 'squeaky gate' music...what exactly as a composer would one be achieving by writing anything higher? Sometimes I think it's more of a case of 'look what I can make these players do' than it is 'look at this aural picture I can create' (as a composition student in my uni days, I feel semi-qualified to make that judgement).
There is a top Ab in the Jacob Divertimento for wind octet (I know because I have to look up the fingering every time I play it each summer). The Ross Edwards oboe concerto written for Diana Doherty definitely goes up to a top Ab (I can't recall anything higher but I may stand corrected). I feel as though the functional range of the oboe for the majority is up to altissimo F, but if you are even having a sense of heading in the direction of playing professionally, I'd be heading to G, G# and A as well.
The other issue as well is that depending on the oboe, the reed setup and the player, past D the fingerings can be pretty variable, so you need to invest some quality time getting to know the best fingerings for your instrument.
Rachel
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2018-05-06 02:10
A publisher in Wales has sent me a photocopy of the original score of Grace Mary William's Oboe piece 'Carillons for Oboe & Orchestra' I've just finished typing out the Oboe part using Print Music (Finale)
I was hoping that it didn't go any higher than top F but this work has four high F#s, two high G s and one high G#.
The F#s I can handle but the G s and G#s I've moved down an octave. It is an excellent piece for solo Oboe though and has a unique sound typical of G M Williams melody writing. She even manages to get lovely melodies into the orchestral cadences of most of her compositions.
Skyfacer
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hotboy
Date: 2018-05-08 19:29
Great thread here, and thanks for turning me on to this concerto. It is wonderful.
Barry Vincent wrote:
> I sent a message to Oscar Navarro's FaceBook page asking him
> what is the highest note in the Oboe part of Legacy not really
> expecting him to respond but am delighted that he has. He
> informed me that the highest note is an F natural which is
> surprising.
Yes, it is quite surprising that he said "F," considering that it's pretty obvious that he's playing high Gs. All you have to do is look at his fingers at the 20:49 mark or check it with your tuner or any of the online keyboards available.
Dane
Bay Area, California
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
