 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: Jim22
Date: 2015-09-22 06:41
I think I'm flunking reed making. I can tie blanks fine, thin the tip, clip, slip, scrape bark off the channels, measure and lay out the tip and back, but I have no idea how to get from there to a reed that peeps, crows, and plays. I have a teacher that got me this far, but the next step alludes me, and the lessons aren't really providing a consistent method forward. Can anyone recommend a good systematic guide that details the process from blank to playing reed that I could try? The Shalita ebook maybe? Any others? Thanks!
Jim C.
CT, USA
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2015-09-22 16:39
The Reed Maker's Manual by David Webber and Ferald Capps would be my recommendation for you. I believe it is still available directly from him at webreeds.com.
I think this book will be best for you because Mr. Webber puts the emphasis on getting the reed vibrating first, and then refining the sound.
J.
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Author: Oboelips
Date: 2015-09-23 00:10
There are some good tutorials on YouTube as well..get your reed blank and follow along! Pierre Roy is easy to follow, as is Kerry of the Reedmaker Reed Shop. And there are many that I've not perused. Everyone does it a little bit different--and this makes it easy to find a way that works for you. Plus..it's free. In the quest for making better reeds, and occasionally trying something new, these are quite handy. Then, if you have any technique problem, search for that, too. There are master classes and lessons galore.
Oboefully,
Deb
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2015-09-24 12:58
Yeah, I like the vids too. I find Pierre Roy's vids are particularly good. He is SO fast, ends up with reeds that look crappy but sound gorgeous ... you have to listen carefully to everything he says as he's chopping away at the reeds - everything is important. Getting the reed up to pitch, the crow, refining the rattle until it crows cleanly. Watch and listen. Note how often he sharpens his knife ..
Watch how he clips the tip, rotating the knife through. That little trick is worth learning!
For European scrape, the reed-making DVD by Linda Walsh is excellent. The scrapes are not that different in principle - European scrapes still have the same basic ingredients as the US long-scrape (tip, blend, heart, spine, back - the proportions and lengths are different, but the function and techniques remain the same).
J.
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Author: OboePrince
Date: 2015-09-24 15:16
see below
American Oboist. I currently play on a Rigoutat Riec. She is beautiful.
Post Edited (2015-09-24 15:23)
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Author: OboePrince
Date: 2015-09-24 15:22
It sounds like your panels aren't deep enough and your tip is probably too short. Cut a little bit more of the heart away and make it become the tip (NOT the whole thing, be cautious and go for little bits at a time) and aim toward the sides of the reed, making the slop between heart and tip have like a treetop shape. That sounds like where your problem is, the slope between heart an tip. Play with the depth and length of that.
I am really good at making for how long I've been doing it. And I throw away less cane than my teacher. The only thing is with me, I sometimes can make a reed that sings like God blessed it personally and they sometimes I make something that sounds like a dying weasel (All still in tune though, so I don't know how I manage that) but damn near everything I make will at least play, even if I wouldn't WANNA play on it.
Some people are too wimpy with their knife and too aprehensive and others are too agressive like myself, and I have the stiches to prove it. And because of my approach I can make it happen quicker than most (I don't rush the final stages of tip refinery, but I don't spend much of my life gently shaping the windows) but when I tear a corner I TEAR it, and I ruin it. But again, I make more piece of cane into functioning reeds (Now he plays a Loree, and those bitches require damn near flawless reeds if you're using American Reeds, which I am sure we all do, though I have used french scrape at Concert Fest to play the solo in "Mock Morris" and just anything by Grainger or such composers) than my teacher, much less any other student I have ever seen.
The unfortunate thing is without watching you scrape I don't know how specifically to help you, because one cannot explain in text how to make an oboe reed. It's done on such a sub-atomic level. 1/8 of a milimeter is a huge measurment. So I can't really explain anything more than I THINK what your problems sound like to me in words, but again, I need to see the reed and your approach.
I play a Rigoutat. Not such a fickle horn when it comes to reeds, so I don't have it as bad as Loree players. But people with Markigauxs could play on a plastic reed and still get a forgiving sound. Screw that brand for being so close to perfect.
I don't like the way Mariguax colors at the top. It's too pretty.
Anyway, good luck with your reeds and if you want my email is rmills@murraystate.edu and we could set up a skype call and I can see if I can help you.
I had a hand injury (I used to double flute pretty fiercely before that) so tying is so hard for me, and most of my reeds get taped (like the entire eastern world) but the scraping part doesn't elude me as much. I'd be happy to help.
American Oboist. I currently play on a Rigoutat Riec. She is beautiful.
Post Edited (2015-09-24 15:26)
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Author: Oboehotty
Date: 2015-09-26 16:44
There is a fantastic Reed making book by Joe Shalita, both print and e-format. If you have an iPad and access to the iBooks store, Nancy Ambrose King has a wonderful,Ebola on Reed making.....fantastic.
The Weber book is great as well. I don't find much help in the Jay Light book. Not very straight forward with step-by-step instructions like it seems you are looking for.
Good luck!
Shawn
Professor of Oboe - Youngstown State University
Howland Local Schools - MS Dir. Of Bands/HS Asst. Dir (Marching, Symphonic)
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2015-09-28 22:22
A very helpful post, OboePrince. But you do have a gift for exaggeration: "It's done on such a sub-atomic level." As a chemistry professor, I have to object to that characterization; sure, there are subatomic consequences of severing covalent and hydrogen bonds in the scraping of cane, but I don't think you can map, let alone scrape, individual cellulose molecules in a piece of cane. ;-)
Also, I'm a Lorée player who doesn't make near flawless reeds, and people still seem to like my sound ok...
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: OboePrince
Date: 2015-09-29 06:37
HAHA! I do have a way with colorful language. I just mean very minor changes can make a huge difference. I turned a reed from just a hair stiff to brassy with two swipes of my knife the other day. I just meant so little means so much.
Loree's are fickle. I am not saying I would never own one, I'm sure if I owned 3, one would be a Loree, but it would not be my choice for one that is consistent. But we are all different. I like Rigoutat and some oboists think those are increbily bright. I think they are a little, but not overly so, and I love the flexibility. I would either go all the way to that end when I upgrade this January or to the other extreme of very stable and stiff and dark Marigaux. I'll leave the in between stuff for when I get my 3rd or 4th horn. :D
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2015-10-02 00:06
Back to Jim22's original question - how to make the reed peep?
You asked for a book - which I suggested. I think that any and all of the varied resources suggested in this thread will help you including the youtube videos.
My suggestion is that you go beyond "peeping" your reed. Waste a few reeds by making them really rattle - make the reed sound like a buzz-saw and then start to clip it up to pitch, but keep it rattling freely by working the paper-thin tip evenly, all four quadrants, between each clip. As you progress you will be taking progressively less and less cane off the reed.
[KEEP YOUR KNIFE SHARP!
There are two ways to take less cane - use a blunt knife, or use a sharp knife and a feather-touch. The blunt knife will "massage" your tip slowly turning it to putty, and you will also tend to rip the tip corners. The sharp knife will be able to lift an infinitesimally thin layer of cane, without disturbing the layers underneath.]
Once you get a reed up to pitch but still sounding a bit raucous - that is a great place to be!
Put the reed away and come back to it the next day with a freshly sharpened knife, a feather touch and loads of patience, and you'll get a fine working reed.
J.
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Author: OboePrince
Date: 2015-10-02 02:30
Actually you are describing everything I currently have been doing at this point. i mean, the reeds I make are currently not usually absolutely shrill and they are playable but they are all a 6-8 in brightness. I can't seem to go the next step and make a dark reed, and when I manage, malking it into something that is actually playable takes nearly all that depth out, because it kills me to play on a reed that thick.
Is there a way to free it up WITHOUT making it raucous? I have sometimes even made them so raucous I won't play on them. most are just moderately bright. But when I leave them thicker they tire the hell out of me. And it just take about 4 swipes of my knife to turn something to turn it from stiff to way too free.
I in no way came at this advising him as an expert-I was advising him as an amauer that is farther along. Sometimes amatuers can help other amatuers learn things.
I also scrap my tips at 17 1/2 mm from the tip of the string, which makes me able to render a very playable reed very quickly. But again, the problem is the timbre. It just gets so crass in the freeing process.
American Oboist. I currently play on a Rigoutat Riec. She is beautiful.
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2015-10-02 06:25
The balance within the tip and the balance/proportion of the tip to the heart as well as the balance of all the elements ,,, windows ... is what makes a great reed~!
Then of course the particular piece of cane must cooperate too.
Mark
Post Edited (2015-10-02 06:26)
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Author: Jim22
Date: 2015-10-03 04:42
Thanks for the suggestions, I'm still here, reading and digesting them.
From my perspective, it appears to take _experience_ to get a reed close to balanced, and then from there it can be adjusted to get the best from it. Unfortunately, experience is one thing that no new reedmakers have!
My earlier reeds tended to be flimsy, closed, and close up when played. My teacher suggested I had removed too much material from them.
For my latest batch of reeds, I may have over-compensated, and they apparently still have too much cane left on the heart and back. I can pretty much judge the thickness of the tips, since "as thin as you can get without destroying it" seems about right, especially on corners and sides. It's harder to judge the back, and really hard for me to judge the heart.
I'm an engineer, and I want to see reed-making as a process, with dimensions and measurements that can be repeated. I can measure lengths, but thicknesses are tougher, and strength is even more of a challenge. Maybe reeds just don't lend themselves to "process".
Anyway, I'm going to persevere and try to find a happy middle-ground. Lately, not all of my teacher's reeds have been successful either, so I know it's not just me.
Jim C.
CT, USA
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Author: oboi
Date: 2015-10-03 04:59
No matter whether you are a pro or an amateur, reedmaking is a bit of witchcraft. When I first learned, basically all my reeds were not fit for consumption, and I would beg for a reed from my teacher for a performance. It was probably about 3 years by the time I felt like I wasn't spending 90% of my time making reeds (that's like 5+ hours a day doing oboe-related stuff). I still have many duds, but eventually I accumulated enough that I have been very lax in reedmaking and still have playable reeds.
It is also a relief to get across the skill barrier to be able to play "bad" reeds. I am much more tolerant of bad reeds compared to when I first started making reeds.
Good luck!
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Author: OboePrince
Date: 2015-10-03 07:33
Reedmaking is a "process" with guidelines, but you have to ultimately realize it is a nuanced thing. Every piece of cane has a different personality almost. I have only even owned a knife for like 5 months but I am totally on all my own reeds and have been for a while. So, not everyone here is an expert but I can still make reeds to play and perform on. The pitch is always solid, but I always end up with something that is warm but way too stiff or way too free and bright. I can't find a balance there. But as far as making reeds that play, I'm there.
Maybe just try making your tip a bit longer.
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Author: OboePrince
Date: 2015-10-03 07:41
It also depends what you are playing too. Mozart and Rossini reeds aren't interchangable with Brahams or Tchiakovsky reeds. A lot of what I make now I can deal with a little bit of edge on the reed because I am playing Mozart, and the reed needs to be light as a feather.
Then in Orchestra, where we are playing Peer Gynt, I have to use a reed to me that is almost uncomfortable, because I am second, so I can't be playing on a freely singing reed, and I am also not setting the timbre, the principal is. I usually play English Horn, so am usually in the spotlight anyway, but on that piece I am playing 2nd oboe, and it's really hard when I can't make a reed that is of medium temperment. I can only make something pretty to play but hard or something way too wild but easy to flex my muscles on.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2015-10-04 17:09
As a beginner, you should probably count your strokes as you scrape (and make sure that your knife is sharp, which is the number one mistake every beginner makes).
Scrape the same number of strokes in each quadrant, always. Count the strokes you went too deep as one stroke. Count the strokes you jittered across the surface as one stroke. It all evens out in the end.
Balance comes down to this; four quadrants, mirror images of each other. Nobody achieves this (though superstars like Cooper come awfully close) but it is the perfection we all strive for.
Remember that a reed is a three-dimensional surface, and that your blade's angle of attack should follow that contour so that it always lifts, never digs or skates. How? Two techniques: Short (< 1mm) strokes, and using your left (non-knife) hand to adjust the angle of attack in pitch, roll and yaw. Evelyn Rothwell advised moving your left elbow up, down, forward, backward etc. to achieve the ideal angle BEFORE the knife touches the cane.
As an example; you want to steepen the blend from the back of the tip to the heart. How to achieve this? If it was 30 yards long and you had a back-hoe, where would you dig :-) .
I align my knife in "yaw" with the "roof" of the blend, tip up the tip in "pitch" and "roll" so that my knife is scraping at the correct angle, and ..... tickle the blend with delicate little scrapes of less than 1/2 mm.
Hope this helps!
J.
[postscript] Okay - there is MUCH more to it than this. There are times - especially at the beginning - where you need to use long strokes. I use my left (non-knife) thumb to push the blade and keep it (mostly) at the correct angle. There is also a need to balance forward and back - the tip with the heart with the back, if you see what I mean.
Nevertheless, you should ALWAYS count your strokes, and perform the same action in each of the four quadrants. The only exception to this rule is when you are deliberately trying to even out an unevenness, either in thickness or in length.
Post Edited (2015-10-04 17:14)
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Author: Oboelips
Date: 2015-10-05 21:59
I too, come from a drafting/engineering background, and while you can apply static concepts to reeds for some things (sharp knife, dimensions & etc.) you cannot control if that piece of cane is truly suitable for a reed, and the weather. Often, a reed that won't play in summer, WILL play beautifully the next spring. Un-handy at times, but it keeps it really interesting...
Deb
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Author: Jim22
Date: 2015-10-24 03:44
I may be making progress, my latest reeds actually play. They are, unfortunately, a bit sharp, and that's before I have clipped them. They are a little on the closed side too, but not bad.
Jim C.
CT, USA
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The Clarinet Pages
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