 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: OperaOboe
Date: 2015-05-23 05:25
Hello all,
This is my inaugural post to this board. I'm hoping to seek the advice of other reed makers on a problem I've been having lately with some Ross gouged oboe cane. Although I've had favorable memories of it from the past, all of the reeds I've made on this gouge lately end up with kind of a buzzy/spread sound and are flat in the high register.
The measurements of the cane seem normal, but I'm wondering if there's some specific issue with the machine that could be causing this? Gouge is the only variable I've changed recently, but I'm sure there are other factors that could be contributing to the problem.
Any advice? I'd appreciate it greatly!
Post Edited (2022-01-04 00:07)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2015-05-23 08:45
To raise the pitch, one can normally:
Clip the tip shorter
Sand the edges to narrow the shape
Use a narrower shaper
Taper the tip sides with a razor blade
While some players do not do this, I would make sure that the crow of the reed is a C with the lips on the cane by the thread and at the very tip. Good luck!
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2015-05-23 18:46
Hi,
I recommend contacting Dan and explaining the situation with him. I believe he can adjust the curve of the blade for you .... to adjust for pitch and other attributes. When I switched from my Loree to my Marigaux Dan adjusted my blade curve for me.
Also check the gouge with a micrometer ... Dan sets his at .58 in the center ... you might prefer a different center thickness..... .60?
At one time I thought about buying a Ferrillo gouger; however, when I told him I played a Marigaux he discouraged me from doing so. Also When I switched Oboes I changed/adjusted my scrape and staples. Different strokes for different folks ..... there are so many different variables and preferences in tone production.
Sometimes ... I think the heck with the tone just give me the response and flexibility I need to play expressively~!
Mark
Post Edited (2015-05-23 18:49)
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Author: Oboehotty
Date: 2015-06-22 23:28
Don't forget that a Ross gouge is not set up,to be a double radius gouge (gouges off-center thus creating a sling in the Reed built into the gouge). Not sure whether the Ferillo is a single or double radius gouge, but this may have something to do with your pitch.
Scrape the tip and hence entire Reed with the thought of building a larger spine and see if the flatness issues get better.
Professor of Oboe - Youngstown State University
Howland Local Schools - MS Dir. Of Bands/HS Asst. Dir (Marching, Symphonic)
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Author: Oboehotty
Date: 2015-06-25 05:08
Regarding my last post- my apologies for the horrible autocorrect that is happening with my iPad!
<<Ross gouge is set up for a center gouge, as opposed to an offset gouge (opus1 gouger and some others) which inherently creates a "spine" in the gouge" is what I meant.
Professor of Oboe - Youngstown State University
Howland Local Schools - MS Dir. Of Bands/HS Asst. Dir (Marching, Symphonic)
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2015-06-25 14:02
I've always wondered about double-radius gouging. Is there not an inherent problem?
Cane is hardest at the bark, softest closer to the hollow center. From a scraping perspective the cane gets softer, less rigid/more flexible the deeper you scrape. We always aim to get the extreme tip to be even thickness and extremely thin - thinner than paper.
I would imagine that (paradoxically) using a double-radius gouger would mean that the very middle of the extreme tip would be weaker, not stronger.
Thoughts?
J.
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Author: Oboehotty
Date: 2015-06-25 22:33
The double radius gouge, to my understanding, does the opposite. Because it is off center, each time one flips the cane when gouging, you are able to leave a thin strip of cane that is thicker all the way through, thus a "built in" spine all the way to the center.
Shawn
Professor of Oboe - Youngstown State University
Howland Local Schools - MS Dir. Of Bands/HS Asst. Dir (Marching, Symphonic)
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2015-07-04 08:34
Shawn is correct. This spine is not nearly as pronounced as the outside of the reed, but it is real.
For a graphic example, use a quarter as a template to draw a half circle, then take a dime and draw most of a half circle from each side of the larger half circle until they intersect in the center. This is highly exaggerated, but you can see how the interior 'spine' mirrors the exterior spine and also how the double radius interior accentuates the flat 'channels' that flank the spine on the outside.
On string instruments, as you change the length of the string, the vibrating portion of the string vibrates in a similar manner, giving a consistent timbre to the instrument.
Each note on a wind instrument is a different length of bore, in effect a different instrument. To produce the same timbre on each note of the instrument, each note will have a different set of frequencies to match the overtones of the fundamental of that note.
For a reed to be a 'good reed', it must be, in effect, a white noise generator, able to produce any set of frequencies the instrument asks for. A different set for each note. This is the difficulty in reed making, balancing the scrape to produce all frequencies evenly from high to low.
Smooth, even strokes and a smooth transition in the blend from thick to thin promote this. short, choppy strokes, scoops, cliffy transitions, particularly in the blend work against this.
I'm on vacation this month, but when I get back into the office again I will finish a project I've been intending to do for a long time and use a cad program to draw some real scale drawings of single and double radius gouge profiles. I'll post them here when I'm done with them...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2015-07-05 10:41
I understand that.
You are all referring to the area under the bark, back and heart which are parts of the scrape I did not mention in my post, but I'd still like to see those scale CAD drawings!!
The point I was trying to make was, when you get to the extreme tip (the last 1mm or so) the cane is thinner than paper and of a precisely even thickness all the way across. Every reed-maker I know uses a flat plaque for this part of the scrape, at least!
So our scrape MUST have flattened out that "inner-spine" somehow, no? And the extreme center of the tip (widthways) will therefore be formed from cane that is ever-so-slightly softer than the rest of the 1mm of extreme tip. Possibly, even probably, the difference is infinitesimal.
When "finishing" a reed, I often end up dusting (literally) the tip to the corners, but straightening up off the end to prevent ripping the corner off. Perhaps this does impart extra strength (relatively) to the center of the extreme tip.
J.
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2015-07-25 02:56
Hi, Jeremy -
I see what you are driving at, but the reeds I make (which, coincidentally, have the same dimensions Martin Shuring presents so well on his web page http://www.public.asu.edu/~schuring/main.html) end up at .07mm center and .004 - .005 on the corners, so the internal 'spine' actually makes this a wee bit easier.
When I get back from vacation I will get together with my CAD guy and make those scale drawings...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2015-07-26 18:13
Thanks, Robert!
I'm very impressed you can be that exact, keeping a tiny spine all the way to the tip. I find mine disappears about .5 -.8 mm from the extreme edge of the tip.
Best,
J.
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Author: Oboeshawn
Date: 2015-08-01 04:14
Hi Operaoboe,
What you're describing is why I quit using the Ross gouge. But I can really relate to your "favorable memories" of past reeds with it. I think that is why it took me so long to give it up. The Ross gouge is the first machine I owned and I used it for the first 10 years or so of my career. It makes reeds fast--they vibrate quickly as you've noticed. My percentage of useable reeds however was super low--something like 1 in 10 (or 1 in 30 during particularly dark times). So, in retrospect, there really wasn't anything time saving about it. My problems were exactly as you said: spreading and flatness. With biting the reed you can somewhat cope with both of those issues together--but I found I tended to play with a small, metallic sound and actually sharp (or "flarp") because I was biting to contain the spread tone and to raise the pitch of the high register. I was also closing down my throat and mouth considerably to get the pitch up which contributed to a small, pressured sound. I tried many things to try and fix the problem, but basically I gave up and moved on to something else entirely. The benefits--active/resonant/warm sound--went away when I tried to solve the spreading/pitch problems. I suppose I could've switched to a more contained brand of oboe, but I've never strayed long from Loree oboes which feel the most like my voice.
I personally prefer working from a blank that causes me to draw out the vibration in an ordered way rather than doing damage control, desperately trying to calm it down from the get-go. At no point during the finishing process do I want to feel like I can't scrape the reed for fear of it going flat or the sound breaking apart. Scraping should always make the reed sound and function *better*. In other words, the more I reveal the gouge through scraping, the better it should feel, sound, and function. I don't want to have to manufacture structures in the scrape of the reed that should be there already from the gouge (extra spine or rails, too much from windows, etc.). My best reeds should have tip, transition, heart, and back that are all simple reductions of the existing gouge proportions--nothing fancy. I didn't find I could do that with the Ross and get the sort of results I'm after.
That said however, here are some things to try:
-a narrower shape: narrower shapes vibrate more reluctantly and therefore tolerate more scraping before spreading. The closer to parallel the sides of the shape, the more "up" the second octave will sit. Larger staples will also help with this as well, but you can go too far with that and lose your middle C and low G. Narrow shapes require more scraping, so they can actually play flat if the gouge isn't well suited. The scraping must be spot on, and a well sharpened knife is essential to get it vibrating well without over scraping it.
-thicker walled and/or larger bore staples: thicker walls vibrate less readily and can help calm down and mellow an overactive gouge. A staple with less differential between the size of the top and the bottom will help stabilize pitch and tonal core. Think of it like the difference between an oboe (conical bore) and a clarinet (cylindrical). The more cylindrical the bore of the staple, the more stable, but less colorful and vise-versa.
-measure the cane at the throat to check for symmetry: once you've shaped the cane, put it on the staple and use a ruler to get it placed where it would go at your tie length, then mark the sides of the cane at the four points where it meets the top of the staple. Take this "throat" measurement with a micrometer, getting as close to the edge as you can get before it falls off. If it's wildly different numbers that's guaranteed spreading. In my experience, anything less that .51 at that spot will result in a reed that wants to spread. My golden range is .52-.54, but the main thing is that it's the same (or pretty darn close) in all four places. This helps you know the piece gouged symmetrically and that you centered the shape properly on the gouge. The "ear" thickness measurement is also good to check for symmetry.
-cane selection: the Ross machine more or less "irons" the cane with it's heavy guide, so it will gouge almost anything you put in there. My experience with the Ferrillo is that it will spit out cane that isn't close enough to the right diameter or doesn't sit right in the bed--so it helps weed out cane that isn't ideal. Because the Ross doesn't do that, you have to be all the more demanding with what you put in there. I think in general 10.5-11 works the best. Smaller than that will give you too thin of sides. Make sure it's the same diameter the entire length of the cane, and that it isn't swaybacked across the entire arc of the outer bark. Place the pre gouged piece bark-side down on a truly flat surface and make sure it doesn't arch up and away (like a frown). It's ok if the ends come up slightly (like a smile). Rock the cane a full 180 degrees from edge to edge to check for this across the entire arc of cane. If the piece of cane isn't straight it won't pass this test on one of the edges.
gouging: Be sure you're centering the cane in the bed exactly when you turn it. Don't bear down on the guide when gouging--especially on the final passes. When you turn the cane for the final pass, how much comes off? It shouldn't be a huge strip and it shouldn't take off more on any subsequent passes. Once it finishes gouging initially, you should turn it and do one more pass--any further passes beyond that should not remove more cane. If they do, your blade isn't centered right and that will scoop out cane right where you're needing it to hold it up in pitch and together in sound. Make sure the cane isn't waterlogged when you gouge it--it will swell up and more will come off. Make sure the shavings coming off aren't too thick--anything more than .008 is dangerous; .005 or thinner is ideal (as long as it's not shredding). This might mean it won't gouge pieces that are soft and grainy--which isn't a bad thing.
All this said, some of my best reeds of all time were off the Ross gouge, so I understand why it's alluring. But it seemed like it was either making genius reeds or nothing useable at all--there was no middle ground. And that made me more than a little crazy!
Good luck!
Shawn
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