 The Oboe BBoard
|
Author: AndyH
Date: 2015-03-27 14:19
Hi,
This is my first post in this forum, though I've already searched and read quite a bit of it. I found the thumb plate system fingerings for my B&H Regent oboe here, thanks to Chris P, of Howarths.
I've started considering buying a better oboe, though given the prices, it may be a while before I do.
Dual system seems like a good idea, but from the pictures I've seen of dual system oboes, they don't appear to have the Bb/C side key, that has the same effect as taking the thumb off the thumb plate (raising an A to Bb, or a B to a C). Are there any that do? If not, I might want to stick with pure thumb plate system.
I've read what Chris P said about his experiences with a B&H Regent ("B&H Reject", as he called it), but I actually quite like mine - but then I don't know any better, as it's the only oboe I've ever played. Sure, the tuning and tone may be questionable, but actually getting all the notes out seems quite easy, compared to say, the notes at the bottom end of a saxophone. I haven't learned much of the third octave yet, but I'm finding it no harder than the lower altissimo range on a clarinet. Definitely easier than third octave on a flute.
Even so, I've no doubt there are better oboes, so I'm contemplating saving up for one, but probably at the "student" end of the market. I'm strictly a hobbyist, so I don't feel the need to buy a pro level oboe.
I've owned clarinets and saxes for a few years (currently soprano and alto). Maybe it would seem like a small feature to other people, but I really like having that thumb plate system side Bb/C key. It makes it just a bit more sax-like.
I'd prefer to buy another plastic/resin oboe too. With a wooden one, I'd be constantly worried about it cracking. Also, I am in the habit of leaving instruments on the stand, to encourage me to play them. I've read that's a bad thing, but it doesn't appear to have done my main clarinet any harm at all, and it's been on a stand for years. It's ebonite though. I can see the point that it would harm a wooden one, which is partly why I'm reluctant to buy one. If Howarths made a plastic oboe, or better still, an ebonite one, that would probably be my first choice.
Post Edited (2015-03-27 16:04)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: veggiemusician
Date: 2015-03-27 19:01
I've gone from a pure thumbplate Howarth S2 to a dual system Marigaux 901 and there really is nothing to worry about... in fact the dual system is better all round. The action you are concerned about is solved by the conservatoire link using right hand first finger. Don't be put off by cracking... it rarely destroy's instruments. All my Howarths have not cracked and my Marigaux 901 & Loree cor did after 3 years during some pit work... it was very minor too.
Jerome Broun
Principal Oboe UAE NSO Symphony Orchestra
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: veggiemusician
Date: 2015-03-27 19:06
Just to add Howarths do plastic lined wooden oboes... the S40 may be the ideal oboe for you
Jerome Broun
Principal Oboe UAE NSO Symphony Orchestra
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: AndyH
Date: 2015-03-27 19:32
Thanks, Jerome. It's nice to have the advice of a proper musician - something I'm never likely to be
I like the side key because it has the same function as the Bb and C side keys on a sax, just combined on one key - which my Yamaha WX5 (electric sax substitute) has too. It's also similar to using the right side trill keys on a clarinet for those notes.
I'm aware of the RH1 fingerings for the conservatory system, and I guess I'd get used to using those instead, but it would be nice to have more in common with the fingerings for my other woodwind instruments.
The Howarth S40 sounds good, but that's quite a lot more than I'd considered spending. I don't suppose there are many second hand ones in good condition either. I'll give it some thought though. The S10 is more my price range...
I see the Buffet 4121 is plastic lined too, and appears to have the Bb or C side key, but I'm not clear what other fingerings it has. The Yamaha page for the YOB-241B implies is has an Ab-Bb trill key, which may be the same thing, but it's hard to tell because they show a picture of the non-thumb plate version (YOB-241, with no B) instead, so naturally every online retailer has copied that picture too. Neither of those companies appears to be interested in showing a labelled diagram of their keywork.
Would a plastic lining allow me to leave it on the stand for long periods of time without having to worry about water accumulating in the join?
I'm not convinced by the argument that the cork is compressed by doing that, and that's therefore a bad thing - the cork can stay in a wine bottle for decades, and never develop a leak. Pull it out and put it back a few times, and it's much more likely to leak. I am prepared to believe that water accumulating in the join on a wooden instrument would be a problem though.
Post Edited (2015-03-27 20:00)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: veggiemusician
Date: 2015-03-27 20:06
All oboes need to be cleaned out after playing... even plastic ones. Im not keen on keeping oboes on stands as micro dust get into the key pillars and damages oboe over time. It really takes no time at all to put oboe back into case.
If you like side keys I would invest in a 2nd hand Howarth S2 as these are quite cheep by todays prices due to being open holes.
Jerome Broun
Principal Oboe UAE NSO Symphony Orchestra
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-03-27 20:56
You should never leave any instrument fully assembled on a stand for any longer than you need to as water will collect in the sockets which will in turn soak and then dry out the tenon corks, so always put your oboe back in its case after playing. I see this a lot on instruments that have been left together for long periods at a time so I do not advise it at all.
To be honest, the action of playing Bb and C on conservatoire and dual system oboes is only a matter of putting down RH finger 1 instead of reaching for a side key - you have far more options on con/dual system oboes as you do with pure thumbplate as you don't always have the side G-Ab and won't have the G#-A trills on thumbplate systems.
However, have you considered a dual system S3 or similar? That's the ring key conservatoire system oboe that has a side Ab/Bb trill key (the one overlapping the side G-Ab trill key) so you can use that as a side Bb key and also an altissimo F# key (like the side Bb key on saxes will do in conjunction with the fingering for high F).
There is an S3 on Howarth's used instrument list - it was made back in 2001 by Steve Kelly and probably the last one ever made. It was made specially for a player I knew and this one I finished myself. It's currently pure conservatoire but can easily be converted to dual system.
http://www.howarth.uk.com/wo/manuals/2hoboes/OB1847.jpg
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: AndyH
Date: 2015-03-27 23:03
Thanks, Jerome and Chris. I may have to revise my instrument care regime.
I've been cleaning the B&H Regent out with a full length oboe mop that I made from a top joint mop and a "Chenille Twist", with some cloth wrapped around the join. I keep a small soft cloth bag over the top end.
"Chenille Twists" come in packets of a dozen, for about £3 from my local cheap crap shop (Quality Save). They're like giant pipe cleaners, meant for kids to do arts and crafts with, but I mostly use them as clarinet and keyless flute mops - you just have to be careful of the hard bit at the end where the twisted wire ends. It's not exposed, but ideally, that bit needs to be covered with something.
I hadn't considered dust accumulation affecting the keywork. I could probably manage re-corking it if I had to, but I wouldn't be able to remove slop caused by dirt wearing away at the pivots.
I should probably have pointed out that the budget I had in mind was for something like a second hand S10 or Buffet 4121, rather than the price of a new one, but I'll consider saving up for longer for something better instead.
The S3 looks very nice. I've now found a picture of an S2 on John Packer's website (I guess Howarths don't need to take pictures - there's clearly a long queue waiting to buy one). I do wonder if the ring key on RH1 would make it harder for me to reach though. My hands are fairly small for an adult male. The Regent has a covered key there, so I'm able to cover the hole for the ring finger and just put my index finger anywhere on that key. I had to put a bit more cork on the thumb rest to do it comfortably though.
Incidentally, one of the S2's on JPs website says "New in 81". I have to wonder how long an oboe can last and still be worth that sort of money. My car turned 18 this week (it's now old enough to vote), so I'm not obsessive about having new things, but I was under the impression that all woodwind instruments had a limited useful lifespan.
Incidentally, I got that wrong about the YOB-241B - it doesn't say it has an Ab-Bb trill key; that's the YOB-431B. I read somewhere on this forum that the LH1 key opening isn't adjustable on the 241B, which seems like a major shortcoming.
Post Edited (2015-03-27 23:05)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-03-28 01:35
A Howarth S10 or S10B is definitely a far superior instrument to the Buffet - I'm not just saying that as I'm biased in any way, but the Buffet hasn't got anything like the same depth of tone or build quality as the S10/S10B. An S20 would be a better instrument as it's a pure thumbplate oboe and has semi automatic 8ves and a RH C-D trill key which make things much easier.
All Yamaha oboes are primarily conservatoire system and offered as dual system for the UK, so only have the side G# key on the top joint - the 431 has the Ab-Bb trill which is a linkage piece from the G# key to hold down the LH2 fingerplate so the trill is done by playing Ab (G#) and trilling with LH finger 2. If the LH1 fingerplate hasn't got the adjusting screw on it, one can be fitted - either a relatively simple thing to do by filing a notch on the top side and drilling through to fit a 12BA screw, or the more expensive method of fitting an actual adjusting screw pip with a full sized adjusting screw, but it will need replating and the pad replaced. Some Yamaha 400 series do have adjusting screws on the LH1 fingerplate depending on their age - probably the more recent ones will have the adjusting screw.
S2 oboes will either have a ring key or covered fingerplate for RH1 depending on their age - the more recent ones will have a covered fingerplate. There are a few S2XL oboes as well, but these are most likely from the late '80s as not many were made. At my time at Howarth I only saw two new S2s and the one S3 oboe as most pros will play full Gillet conservatoire system oboes now - either conservatoire or dual system.
There are some rarities as thumbplate system Lorees which were specially made - they look like regular full Gillet conservatoire Lorees, but don't have the connection between the joints (RH1 to the con bar) and I think in place of the G#-A trill they may have had the thumbplate Bb/C side key. Howarth also offered the S5 in this system which they called the 'English System S5' and was made to special order.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-03-28 19:20
Andy, are you on Facebook? If you are, send me a message on there.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: AndyH
Date: 2015-03-28 21:44
Thanks, Chris. That's very useful.
I hadn't realised quite how much I'd be likely to have to pay for a dual system oboe. Getting a better quality thumb plate one instead is definitely worth considering, in which case joining the queue for a used Howarth, from Howarths, might be the way to go.
I think I ought to put it on a back burner while I save up quite a lot more money than I'd originally planned
I don't use Facebook, sorry. I've always had a deep seated mistrust of that kind of thing. I've never used Twitter either.
I try to keep my online presence relatively anonymous, because I live in an area with a very high burglary rate, and I don't want to give too many opportunities to tie together my name, address, a list of all my most expensive possessions (which I inevitably discuss in forums) and the times of day when I'm most likely to be out. I'm sure burglars have computers too - they steal enough of them.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: veggiemusician
Date: 2015-03-28 22:50
Student Buffet oboes are nasty... they just are not in tune. Howarth gets my vote. I've lived in Hulme and Moss side and never had an oboe stolen... if it does just wait for jonny roadhouse to give you a call once the thief has tried to sell it there ( unsuccessfully).
Jerome Broun
Principal Oboe UAE NSO Symphony Orchestra
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: AndyH
Date: 2015-03-28 23:22
Useful tips. Thanks, Jerome
If I decide to go with conservatory system, are the lower end Yamaha ones worth considering, then?
I'm a bit irritated that Yamaha didn't even bother to show a picture of the YOB-241B on their website. Instead, they just show the 241 with a note saying it's the wrong picture - now slavishly copied onto ever major retail site in the UK, but without the note. I'm not clear if there are any other differences, besides adding a thumb plate, and a low B flat. I don't relish the prospect of having to fit an adjuster to the LH1 finger plate though. I guess it's an option.
Maybe I should stick with thumb plate system (in which case, it will probably be a Howarth), or hold out even longer for a dual system one. I haven't played one for long, but by the time I can afford a better oboe, I may have been playing it for quite a while longer, and it might seem like a big change to switch to pure conservatory system.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-03-29 04:35
I think you'd probably be better off with an S20 if you don't really see the need to go for an all out pro model (but want a definite step-up model from a beginner oboe) as they have nearly all the features of an S2 but have the advantage of covered fingerplates throughout unlike the S2 which had as many as four open holes (ring keys for RH1, RH3 and LH 2 and an open hole for LH3). S20s don't have the LH F key, articulated low C# or 3rd 8ve as S2s often had (depending on age).
The Yamaha 200 series while being a basic dual system oboe isn't really all that far removed from a B&H Regent in terms of where it sits in the hierarchy - it is a better oboe, but still a basic beginner model. Plastic Bundy oboes made for the UK market are made as pure thumbplate system, but not made particularly well and like the Yamaha, may or may not have a forked F vent which all oboes should be equipped with to allow you to play forked F without having to open the Eb key.
The following oboes that are usually found for sale in the UK all have the same basic thumbplate system keywork (simple 8ve keys, LH C-D trill, low Bb, may or may not have a forked F vent or low B-C link):
Wooden body:
- Howarth S10/S10B (made in Worthing - same bore and joint diameters as the S20, S20c and S40c)
- Howarth B (Italian import - both made as ring key and covered action - has bore reamed with Howarth reamers)
- Ward & Winterbourn TW1 (pretty much a wooden version of a B&H Regent)
- Orsi, Rampone & Cazzani, Prestini, Grassi, etc. (Italian - ring keys)
- Buisson, Lafleur, Evette, Maestro, etc. (Italian imports - ring keys)
- Selmer (London) Gold Seal, Sterling and Console (Italian imports again - ring keys)
- Bundy/Selmer USA (UK spec, covered action with perforated fingerplates - best avoided as the joints are usually warped)
- Artia/Corton/Lignatone (Czech - based on the Italian ring key design but poorly made)
Wood with plastic lined top and lower joint bores:
- Buffet/Schreiber (made by Schreiber in Germany, covered action with perforated fingerplates - weak middle sockets on some)
Plastic body:
- B&H Regent/Rudall-Carte Romilly Model A (ring keys)
- Bundy/Selmer USA Resonite (UK spec - better than the wooden ones as the joints are straight)
- B&H "78" (same instrument as a UK spec Bundy/Selmer USA Resonite)
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2015-03-29 13:26)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: AndyH
Date: 2015-03-29 20:32
That's very detailed. Thanks, Chris.
I'll start saving for an S20, or similar, then. It'll take quite a while...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-03-29 23:44
An S20 will take you to Grade 8, so they are a good long term investment and have good resale.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: AndyH
Date: 2015-03-30 02:01
Noted. Thanks again, Chris and Jerome.
I'll stick with the Regent for a while longer then, and save up for an S20.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
