 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2014-08-10 00:32
At the IDRS Conference on Wednesday evening Frank Swann, Tom Blodgett and I were talking about establishing some means of describing cane in a manner that reflected measurable physical characteristics that could, taken a group, define the characteristics of a given batch of cane in an understandable and repeatable manner. And so the Woofus Scale was born.
Don't ask. It was late and alcohol was involved.
We invite the members of this forum to participate in establishing a set of factors which can be accurately measured and whose comparative results would provide the potential user with information useful in making a choice. Obviously the reedmaker would need to familiarize him/her self with a few batches of cane of different descriptions to feel comfortable with 'reading' the Woofus description, but over time this approach might allow cane to be described in ways more concrete than is now done.
A few examples of possibilities:
1) Hardness of bark, hardness of 'meat' as measured by penetration of as probe with a ball point falling a fixed distance, driven by a constant weight (as metal hardness is today).
2) Flexibility of a length of known dimensions with/without bark, as measured by deflection with a known and constant weight.
3) Twist or torque of a length of known dimensions, as measured by the deflection of a weighted lever of constant dimensions...
...and so on. See if you can thing of some (Woofus) Factor which might have an effect on either the reed making process or the finished reed.
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2014-08-10 03:16
Good luck! I'm sure you will get lots of suggestions. The ones you have are a good start. I would, however, replace the twist/torque measurement with a flattening deflection (flattening relative to the naturally curved shape). This would be a more purely transverse complement to the lengthwise deflection in part 2.
It would be especially interesting if the flattening was done until failure--which might give us some clue as to the likeliness of cracking. This "failure point" may not be simply related to the flattening/force measurement, as cane is a microstructured composite, and the "glue" holding components together may not be as strong in a batch with stronger structural elements. In other words, some cane might be "stiff but brittle," while other canes might "stiff and tough," "flexible and brittle (?)" and "flexible and tough."
One thing that some people have sworn by is the size and spacing of the vascular bundles in the the interior of the cane, ranking it as "fine," "medium," and "coarse." This may be an underlying cause of some of the other more physical measurements, but I don't think that there will be a simple correlation between vb structure and physical properties.
(I am particularly interested in the cracking issue right now, as the more consistent and superior shape from my new supplier has come with a much, much higher rate of cracking late in the reed-making process. I even switched to a "less dense" grade of cane from this supplier, hoping that it would be less brittle, but no dice....)
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2014-08-10 05:29
Thanks, Mike. I like those suggestions. FYI, I've found that over soaking causes brittleness; I usually soak for 10 - 15 minutes in very warm water. But you're talking about late in the process, so that's probably not a factor...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2014-08-10 06:41
I've been careful not to oversoak, but I haven't tested the lower limits of soaking. I'm still at 20-25 minutes. The cane from my old supplier I could safely soak an hour without having crack problems. When I posted that on another thread here, somebody responded that I must have really bad cane--or really good. That enigmatic statement exactly illustrates the problem you're trying to investigate here: nobody really is sure what makes cane "good" for them.
Yes, the cracks happen late in the process, as in I do an initial scrape one day, come back to it the next, and it's on that second day, or even third, when the reeds crack--not visibly, but enough to suddenly give a flat buzzy sound. It could be that this particular cane is kept together by the bark; once the reed is scraped, the rest of the cane is now freer to expand and contract as it dries and is remoistened the second day.
My new supplier is in a dry climate; maybe the cane comes to me drier than the stuff from my old Eastern supplier.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2014-08-10 11:49
Do you soak the gouged cane before testing?
I would hesitate to make measurements based on dry gouged cane for the following reasons:
1. I believe that stored cane dries out extremely slowly* - so exactly how dry IS it, when you are making your measurements?
2. Cane is shaped wet, tied-on wet, scraped wet and played wet. Why measure it when it is dry?
3. Measurements made on the cane while dry will likely exacerbate and accelerate the microscopic cracking process that weakens and ages cane, especially if performed on dry cane (viz. twist and deflection testing)
[We all know how reeds deteriorate over time - how a vibrant, responsive reed will lose its luster, responsiveness and dynamic range and eventually become a shadow of its former self. Why does this happen?
I suspect that microscopic cracks form in the "glue" that joins the vascular bundles, and that over time these cracks weaken the overall structure.]
Nick Deutsch (oboecane.com) has a "hardness tester" that is used to grade the cane (a contraption that extrudes a hard point from the micrometer probe, and records the difference in measured thickness). Described in Linda Walsh's great oboe reedmaking DVD.
In spite of all that I just said, I am EXTREMELY interested in the woofus scale. ANYTHING that can take away some of the guesswork is to be applauded! Keep us informed, please!!
J.
* very old (20+ ys) gouged cane can be bone dry, but recently bought cane NEVER is.
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2014-08-14 00:30
I had the great pleasure to meet Frank at IDRS in AZ a few years back, and we made the happy discovery that we'd both studied with Dick White in Wash. D.C.
When it comes to reeds, I have been a student of them since age 14, so 45 years and counting.
I think all the physical, mechanical and engineering knowledge we can decipher is well worth the effort.
Taken into the subjective world of reeds, it can only help.
I still puzzle about many things, such as why a reed soaked and held in the moth is subject to sudden variations when the relative humidity changes or the barometric pressure.
Here in CO, at altitude and mostly a dry place, reeds make some different demands from my east coast experiences.
I use lots of cane sources, some I've had for 30+ years. I develop an opinion about the hardness or softness, and certain expectations go along with that.
Softer cane usually = shorter finished reed, for instance.
Hard cane is sometimes easy to work with the knife and sometimes has a 'soapy' feel where taking off very small amounts to finish the reed is best left to silicone sand paper. The other hard cane, allows me to polish the extreme tip and corners off, when fairly dry and reed results are superior to the soapy ones.
Some cane seems to like more overlap, or more or less of an angled clip of the tip.
Some cane seems to work better at higher altitudes, or lower ones. I live at 6800 ft., and play from a mile high ( Denver) to 10,000+ feet up in the hills.
Canes characteristics play a big role in preparing for those different locations.
Figuring that out gives me more predictable control of cause and effect.
So, most of this subjective stuff still organizes into a practical process, where sampling, discovery, interpretation, etc. form a sort of (psych) profile for the cane's behavior.
At least, I find it helpful to think of things along these lines.
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2014-08-14 05:08
I suspect that defining the "soaked" state is just as hard as defining the "dry" state. Otherwise, I don't know why we are worried about "oversoaking" cane. At either end of the spectrum you can probably get to a reasonably reliable endpoint, but I don't know whether these endpoints would be particularly relevant, or convenient. You could dry the cane to very low water levels under vacuum. After many hours or days of soaking, you might reach a point at which no more water is absorbed--but you'd have to do that under sterile conditions, or else bacteria and fungi could start chewing away the carbohydrates. And sterilizing the cane itself before you immerse it in water would probably require either autoclaving or immersion in a chemical disinfectant, and either of these processes could also change the nature of cane.
An easier approach might be to decide on a "normal" water content, and dry/humidify the cane to that level. If you look at texts on wood engineering, moduli are typically given for a specified water content--15% or something like that. I don't know offhand how they determine those water contents, though. I could look it up. If I wasn't hungry, and thinking about dinner.
Mike
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: Wufus
Date: 2014-08-14 22:48
Thank you Bob for starting this thread. So far the most information I've come across is for bassoon cane. The three major measurements made are hardness, specific gravity (related to density but slightly different) and flexibility. Some bassoonists actually drop dry cane on the tabletop and listen for pitch or ring. High pitch equals hard cane and dull thud equals too soft.
Measuring wet or dry is going to be very important (how wet is wet and how dry is dry and how do you determine the wetness?). Is hardness measured on the bark side or the inside?
Let's say we can come up with a precise combination of measurements (the Woofus Factor) we still have to correlate with what makes a good reed. I'm sure the number will be different for different players. It's like the "Sleep Number" mattress, everybody's Woofus Factor will be different.
Frank
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2014-08-15 04:14
Hi Frank.
The drop test is something I've done for years, but the scale is only 1 - 3 at best, with dull, somewhat ringing or really ringing.
Subjective at best.
I could record and then study the digital wave form I guess.
Actually, I'd like an app to do that for tonal spectrum analysis anyway.
Anyone know of such a thing?
IMac or iPhone...
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2014-08-16 05:08
Mike and Frank -
We'll probably never get to the end points of soaked/unsoaked, but we CAN do the practical, 'standard' thing of X time (20 minutes?) at a standard water temperature, measure, and continue for some further time interval and test again. This would provide a comparative initial measurement followed by a 'is-it-soaked-yet' indication of how to deal with that cane.
Craig - I, too, was puzzled by altitude changes. I work in the SF Bay Area, at sea level. But I used to play the summer Tahoe Festival at 7000 feet. Reeds that worked at home simply didn't work at altitude and visa versa. I have come to the conclusion (since reeds that work at altitude are longer tipped and thinner in the back) that it is a response to the outside barometric pressure. Less air pressure, less resistance to overcome, a freer reed. My 2 cents worth, but it also accounts for dry summer, wet winter reeds; high humidity is a denser environment...
Frank - I think properly constructed, the Woofus scale will be absolute (HAH!) for the conditions it is set up in, but will translate consistently to other altitude/weather conditions. You might find that 2 works better than 3 where you are, and then continue to buy 2... I think the correlation between what makes a good reed and the Woofus descriptive is going to be subjective. If Woofus is consistent, then the reed maker will experiment as usual until it becomes clear he is making a better reed with 2 rather than 3. But for me, 4 is magic...
Craig - I had not heard of the drop test - and I've been in the game a long time. Oh well... It sounds interesting. If you have an iPhone or iPad, check out the TE Tuner. It's about $5 and includes an impressive set of functions including a wave form analysis screen. I love it!
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2014-08-16 20:48
Thanks Robert, I will get that app.
I am also considering a iPhone breathalyzer. Coffee in the Am and wine in the PM, both my reed making times.
Great beans, freshly ground certainly add to the AM reed making. Red wine... PM, I am having doubts and need some data to test.
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2014-08-16 20:50
Both habits do tend to stain the reeds... and its not hard to tell which is which.
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2014-08-17 08:11
Altitude certainly matters. The density of molecules in a given volume is lower at higher altitude. Because an oboe is an aerophone, the principal vibrator is the column of air in the instrument. Going to a higher altitude means you are changing the mass of the vibrator. It's almost as if your piano string got lighter as you went to higher altitudes....
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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