 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2014-05-15 03:08
Hi,
I have encountered an unusual problem for myself.
Some of my new reeds are playing flat.
The only new variable is I am using a shaping machine ... the dimensions of the template is identical to my shaper tip.
Making the reeds shorter/narrower has surprisingly a small impact on the problem. Even giving them a squeeze ... by the way the tip openings are not too open. Doesn't make too much sense -does it~!
The reeds are also "stuffy" and not free blowing. They require more air support. The basic scrape is the same. If you hold the new reeds up to a back light they look identical to my good reeds.
So what could cause this problem?
I tie the same length etc. The same dimensions etc.
Could it be the diameter of the cane? Or something else with the cane?
Bad piece of cane? Bad gouge?
I am open to suggestions.
Just curious.
The reed I am making now is doing fine.
Mark
Post Edited (2014-05-15 04:36)
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Author: Scandinavian
Date: 2014-05-15 20:51
Hello,
Are you using a straight shaping machine? You say that the measurements are identical - did you measure the shaped cane or the template?
The template for a straight shaping machine will be quite a lot narrower than the corresponding shaper tip. For instance, I have a Michel 725 tip and a straight template which produces very similar cane. While the Michel is 7.25 mm wide, the RC12 is around 7.0 mm wide. Strange indeed, but I've seen an explanation, I think on Robindeshautbois' web site.
/Johannes
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2014-05-16 00:03
Hi Johannes,
The straight template is "supposed" to be identical. And I would say after comparison it is very very very close.
However, when I shaped by hand (and the sharper tip is ten years or so old) I think the cane finished thinner. Probably a by product of using the razor blade. I could never get good consistency doing it by hand - thus the shaper machine purchase.
I do think the shaped cane on the machine is very very slightly wider at a different spot. My hunch is that the curve is slightly different. Just enough to throw off my reed making. I compensated by making the reed .68 - .69 rather than .70 in length.
I also found by depressing the reed/cane by the staple thread it improves the pitch.
I use a 45 mm tube with a more oval opening (Glotin). I play a Marigaux 901 oboe.
Mark
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2014-05-16 01:36
Hi,
I visited http://robindeshautbois.blogspot.com/2011/04/oboe-reed-shaping-and-fibro-fog.html.
He provides a good explanation between the different between a straight template and a shaper tip. As per his observation that a shaper tip forces the cane to flatten out once bent over the tip .... unlike a straight template. This results in a narrower width.
I squeezed flat the top and midsection of a problem reed that was constantly flat. I also narrowed the tip with an emery board. It brought up the pitch and the reed was easier to play. I did the same with another reed and I also got good results.
Everything is a trade-off!!!
I find the straight template is always consistent and seals perfectly.
Thanks for the information.
Mark
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2014-05-16 01:57
I took a piece of shaped cane shaped on the shaper machine and I placed on my shaper tip. It was a pretty good fit; although I was still able to remove some cane - maybe 1/4 - 1/2 mm or so.
So the shaper tip is narrower at the top/middle - narrower then the center of the straight template.
Mark
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Author: Scandinavian
Date: 2014-05-16 22:11
Hello again,
So it seems to me that the slightly wider shape of the straight shaper is messing with your reed setup. You can try to get a even more similar straight template by sendig a couple of pieces of cane shaped with the shaper tip to Hörtnagl. He will compare it's measurments to his extensive list of shapes and find the closest match. I would assume that Udo Heng would be able to do this also, but I think his list is shorter.
I actually went the other way - I have stopped using the machine in favor of the shaper tip. I find that the result is much more consistent, if I'm only thorough enough. It's also so much easier to break the knife blade after each shaped piece of cane, always shaping with a sharp edge - the machine blades get dull so quickly, and are not too easy to sharpen. (At least not for me..)
/Johannes
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2014-05-18 20:31
You are an accomplished reed maker with lots of experience, so it is with some trepidation that I offer the following advice, because it's probably something that you've already tried. But whenever a reed is flat, I always just assume that the tip is too thick. You say that they're stuffy and not free blowing. That would seem to be aided by a thinner tip as well.
They may look the same as your old reeds with a backlight, as I have found that new reeds are always more transparent for a given thickness than their older counterparts. I always find that it is really, really hard to judge thickness at the tip except by pitch and response.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2014-05-19 18:44
Hi.
Thanks for the reply.
I find if thinning the tip and blend loosens the reed and thus makes it easier to blow then the pitch will go higher; however, from my experience all things being considered a thinner the tip alone actually lowers the pitch - if you don't also adjust the rest of the rest.
My problem is the shaperform/template for the shaping machine. The shaping the curve is not an exact match to cane shaped on a shaper tip and handle because the cane is not flatten out before slicing off the sides.
There is definitely an increased the volume in the tied reed.
I might try another shaperform/template. A word of advice ... buy the templates directly form Germany - they you give a trial period to use the template. Reeds n' Stuff will not exchange a template bought through a dealer in the US.
I wanted to avoid the hassle of dealing with an overseas company; however, in highlight it would have been much better to do so.
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2014-05-24 06:33
In one of the responses here, something is mentioned about the shaper tip method flattening out the cane, at least while shaping. I began to think about this effect, when I was refurbishing my two, Spratt copies of the Bhosys handle, as well as an old Caputo handle (Please don't ask how old I am!). My later handle from ? disappeared in a res. move. So, I simply took the fingers, clamps, or whatever they're called these days, off and filed the "bark-contact" surfaces, so they're slightly curved to try to match the shaper tip's top/bottom curvature. At least, I feel better now, knowing that they're not flattening out the cane at the contact points of the clamps. Also, it would help, I think if the clamp's inner surfaces were serrated, (little pyramids), so the cane would have less tendency (sic?) to shift, maybe, while shaping.
It's kind of hard to believe that using 45 mm. tubes would result in flat playing reeds. You would almost expect the opposite. But, as the late Mr. Still, once said, playing the oboe is just one paradox after another!
Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2014-05-24 17:31
Hi,
I started to use the 45mm tubes when I went from my old Loree to my new Marigaux. However, the over length of the reeds are the same.
Mark
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2014-05-26 06:47
I meant to also ask what pitch do the flat reeds "crow" at? Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2014-05-26 17:08
The adjusted (sanded sides) reeds crow a "C".
I don't have unadjusted one on my reed table at this moment. But I do remember the unadjusted concert A from the shapeform was way way flat. More than a few pennies fat.
I believe to the best of my recollection the unadjusted (shapeform) ones using my usual scrape crowed a Bb.
If possible, I am also going to tie the reeds a bit higher (longer reed/lower on the thread - less wide at the tie point) and see what happens.
Okay - Placed two pieces of shaperform shaped cane: one shaped dry and the other shaped when wet on my shaper tip. The wet shaped shaperform cane was wider on my shaper than the dry shaped shaperform cane.
Now there is another possibility here. That when I used the shaper machine I didn't apply enough consistent pressure and time to remove all the cane which might have resulted in a wider shape.
When I shaped the dry cane I was very careful to make sure that all the cane was removed from the sides by repeated shapings and consent pressure.
If the new shaped cane and tie results in a good reed then I know I am on the right track. If not I will try a piece of cane shaped on my shaper tip and see if the problem persists.
I did just receive my gouging machine back from service and the blade was sharpened. Who knows?
I'll also try to select tube cane with a consistent diameter .... and little variation.
One more point .... could it be that when I shaped by hand I inadvertently removed more cane than I thought by holding the blade at a slight angle. Maybe I have always played on a narrower shape without realizing it~!
In that case I need to order a narrower shaperform.
In research one always tries to hold one significant variable consistent without introducing and controlling for other variables.
Too many variables in the mix at the moment.
Need to address them one by one while keeping the others constant.
Mark
Post Edited (2014-05-26 20:40)
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2014-05-27 12:07
Quote:
Too many variables in the mix at the moment.
Need to address them one by one while keeping the others constant.
Amen to that.
Let us know!
J.
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2014-05-31 22:28
Update:
Tie length definitely influences the pitch of the reed. Mostly like since the volume of the space at the tie is less. So far two reeds are in pitch. I still need to tie some cane which I cut dry and carefully. I think it will also help.
Mark
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2014-06-17 20:14
Update:
Most if not all of the problem is gone.
My reeds now are .68 mm. (before there were .70 mm).
My embouchure has adjusted to the slightly wider shape.
I remove lots of wood to make the reed more "blow-able" ... (a narrower reeds is easier to blow).
I have a bit more of a tip. More blend to the heart; yet still defined.
I use an very fine emery board to ever slightly narrow the top of the reed ... removing a bit of the "flare" to a more parallel look.
I tie lower on the reed ... (longer reed) to narrow the volume at the tie/staple.
I shape my cane "dry" on the machine ... which seems to work much better in terms of a narrower result.
I really don't think I need another shaperform at all.
Actually the sound is a bit more covered - full and on the warm-sweet side of the tone.
Mark
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