 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: claire70
Date: 2011-12-21 14:00
I just took my oboe for a service at a reputable London oboe shop (naming no names, but it's obvious...), and since getting it back it's doing something weird. Namely, when I go down to B (middle of the stave) from a higher note, I sometimes don't get a proper B, but a strangled C instead. It's not a proper C, but a muffled, strangulated sound. It happens for instance, going from E to B, or D to B - but only seems to happen when I go down, not up. However, it doesn't happen *every* time - just often enough to be annoying.
I can't really see anything suspicious, except possibly that the two small keys on the top joint (ie. between B and A, and between A and G) seem to 'bounce' as I take my fingers off from the E to the B. However, it looks to me (as far as I can tell) like it's doing this every time, even when the B speaks properly.
I would take it back to the shop and complain because this is not what I paid over £300 for... But I'd have to make a special trip, and it's Christmas, etc etc etc. So can anyone tell me if there is a screw I can tweak to fix this?
I'm playing a Marigaux with a thumbplate, by the way.
Post Edited (2011-12-21 14:02)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-12-21 14:35
Be sure when you release RH1, the Bb and C pads (the two small pad cups on the top joint) are closing properly. And check you're not accidentally nudging the RH1 fingerplate as that can give you an unwanted C or Bb where you'd otherwise want a B or A.
The Bb and C pads will 'blip' when going from E to A or B - that's normal on conservatoire systems and you'll have to be precise when lifting your right hand fingers off to prevent getting 'blips'. Sometimes they can't be avoided (even seasoned pros still get them), but they're still something that has to be worked on.
As for the B not speaking well, it sounds like the C key pad may not be closing along with the Bb pad. The C key has two adjusting screws on it, the one nearest the bend regulates it with the LH2 fingerplate and the one right at the end of the bar regulates it with the Bb key - by what you've described it seems it could be this end one that isn't in adjustment.
Check the closure of both the Bb and C pads with a cigarette paper - both should close at the same pressure when the thumb is on the thumbplate. If the C pad isn't closing (you'll feel little or no drag on the cigarette paper), then adjust the lowest of the two screws on the C key until both close with the same pressure when the thumbplate is held down.
Also check the closure of the Bb pad along with LH3 (without the thumbplate being held down). Both LH3 and the Bb pads should close together. Likewise with LH2 and the C pad.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2011-12-21 15:37
I (like Chris) am assuming full conservatoire with added TP ..
perhaps the con-bar has been too finely adjusted ..
1. Check that when you press your thumbplate it is not still touching the con-bar - the mechanism that springs those two little keys closed. The con-bar should spring up almost to the full travel of the thumbplate, but there should be a tiny gap once the thumbplate is fully depressed. Check this on the top-joint alone, disassembled.
2. Now re-assemble. There is a connection from RH 1 to the con-bar mechanism (it is the standard conservatoire A-Bb and B-C mechanism). the connection crosses the joint between the lower and upper halves of the instrument. check that there is a tiny gap in this connection when you are not pressing RH1.
J.
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-12-22 15:03
Chris, does:
Turning the screw you described clockwise make the c pad close more and the Bb less vice versa?
How about the screw directly below the screw that you described for the c pad? What is the function of this screw?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-12-22 15:31
Turning the end screw (the one on the end of the C key linkage arm) clockwise will make the C pad close heavier in relation to the Bb pad which will in turn close with lighter pressure or will remain open if overdone, so you have to balance the closure of both pads so they're equal.
The screw directly below it (connected to the linkage on the Bb key that runs at right angles to the key barrel) regulates the amount of free play with the con bar. The con bar has to be set up so there's a tiny gap between the lower end of it and the linkage piece from RH1.
And then when RH1 is closed, there should be a gap between the upper end of the con bar and the adjusting screw tip on the Bb key. The con bar also shouldn't bottom out against the surface of the top joint when RH1 is closed.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2011-12-22 16:03
Brian Seaton's freely downloadable Oboe Adjustment Guide describes the function of each screw.
If you are talking about the screw he designates as "Screw #1", it is the adjustment of the con-bar, the mechanism that springs the B-C and A-Bb pads closed (to play B and A). Note that for dual Thumbplate instruments, you need to adjust it both for the thumbplate play and for the amount of play in the joint as I described before (there needs to be a small gap in both).
Note that if you adjust the gap to be too big you will get a noticeable blip in your playing Bb and C, and if you overadjust even further the pads may not raise high enough and will interfere with the note.
J.
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Author: Jeltsin
Date: 2011-12-22 18:06
I had some problem with one of my oboes, an Yamaha, most often with B-flat and B in the similar way, especially after having played for a while.
First I solved the problem by cleaning the half-hole key with a brush, but at the end I found that I could not have the screw for the half-hole key closed for this oboe.
I have also had problem with the stability of pitch for this oboe but not any longer.
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Author: claire70
Date: 2011-12-22 18:54
Okay, I just got my oboe, cigarette papers, and screwdriver out.
The con-bar looks fine and has the little gap that jhoyla describes, so I don't think that's the issue.
However, I've tried doing the cigarette paper under Bb and C pads that Chris describes - and there is really no resistance at all, under either of them. Is that the source of the problem?
To be honest, Mr Seaton is confusing me a bit because he's describing a conservatoire system. But his diagram of which screw is which is useful. So can you lovely people tell me: should I be turning screws 2 and/or 3 (which are the two right next to each other, either side of the A key, yes?)? And clockwise or anti-clockwise?
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2011-12-22 19:19
If neither of the two pads have resistance AND you have those two gaps, it sounds either like friction on the main barrel or a really weak spring on the con bar. Option two is unlikely since it's a leaf spring.
Just as a test, unscrew the main pivot half a turn, and see if the problem gets better or worse?
J.
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Author: claire70
Date: 2011-12-22 19:26
Sorry to be a pathetic non-mechanical girly girl, but which is the main pivot? Screw 2 or 3 (or something else) in Mr Seaton's drawing?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-12-22 20:09
Claire, with just the top joint only (not fitted to the lower joint), do both of the C and Bb pads close together when you hold the thumbplate down?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-12-22 20:36
Sounds like there's a problem with the silencer cork on the con bar, or the con bar could be bent at the lower end.
With the oboe assembled now, is there a slight gap (or double action) between the lower end of the con bar and the connection from the RH1 fingerplate while the thumbplate is held down? You should be able to feel this when you close RH1 slowly. If there's no double action, that could be the problem as the con bar is being held up at the lower end.
Now check the upper end of the con bar. Is there a gap between the end of the con bar and the adjusting screw (arrowed No.1 in the diagram) when RH1 is closed and the thumbplate is held down? I realise it's a bit tricky to hold them both down and check at the same time, but see if you can.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: claire70
Date: 2011-12-24 18:04
Hi Chris,
Re the first suggestion there: yes, there is a double action, so that's okay.
Re your second question: do you mean if I'm playing a B with my left hand, and then I put RH1 down (as opposed to playing, say a G, and then putting RH1 down - which seems to do something different)? If I play a B and put RH1 down, then no, there isn't a gap between the end of the bar and the screw. (Well, it's obviously fairly tricky to see, but I'm pretty sure there's no gap.) Should there be?!
(Merry Christmas by the way :-))
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2011-12-25 09:03
WRT your question "where is the main pivot?"
In Mr Seaton's picture, the main pivot is the really long screw that holds all of the keys in place.
They all rotate about this pivot. The screw is not marked in his diagram (it is not an "adjustment" screw).
In his picture the main pivot is facing you, and is vertical. Hold your top joint exactly like in the diagram. Now, tilt the top away from you through 90 degrees, so that you are looking up the bore. The main pivot screw-head is now facing you above the joint-cork, between the two G# keys (LH and RH).
Turn the pivot screw quarter of a turn, or half a turn, and see if the two little pads marked "C natural key" and Bb key" move with more freedom?
Try playing - has the problem gone away?
If so, it could be that the pivot has a slight asymmetry and that the keys have worn to accommodate it. This is not a solution - in this case, it is worth taking the instrument back to the shop and have everything straightened, possibly with a new pivot.
J.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-12-26 13:04
Just a few more things -
Do you assemble your oboe so the main action pillars line up or do you line the joints up so the linkages line up?
Is the F#-G# linkage working correctly when assembled? Check the pressure under the adjusting screw from RH1 onto the G# pad cup and also the pressure of the RH1 pad when closed.
I'm just wondering as sometimes oboes can be incredibly sensitive if the upper and lower joints aren't aligned correctly, or they may be assembled slightly out of alignment to suit the player but this may not be realised by the repairer who lines it all up and regulates it this way, but it's out of regulation when purposely out of alignment.
What case are you using? Is the lining putting any inward presure on the mechanism?
As it has recently been serviced, there should be a guarantee period provided you haven't taken it to any other repairer or done anything untoward yourself, so the best thing to do is book a time to take it back and have it checked and adjusted while you're present so you can be there to be sure it's right - if you do assemble it so it is out of alignment (eg. with the lower joint set round to the left more so you can reach the feather keys easier or prefer the lower joint to be set off to the right more to make it easier to reach the RH low C and C#), then let them know this as this will have a significant influence on how it should be set up.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-12-26 13:06)
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Author: claire70
Date: 2011-12-27 16:48
Tweaking the pivot screw doesn't make any difference, and the F#-G# is fine too. I don't think there are any weird alignment things going on.
Looking at it again, though, I'm noticing the following: if I have a C fingering and then put the thumbplate down, the con-bar is often quite 'lazy' about going all the way up, ie. screw 1 is taking its time to lift up. Therefore the C pad is slow going down. I'm fairly sure that this is what is making my dodgy note - if I stick my finger on the C pad when I play B, it comes out fine. It's just not getting down quickly enough in the normal course of playing.
So is there anything I can do to get the con-bar to lift properly, or is it something to do with the spring underneath it?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-12-27 17:10
Either the con bar spring is too weak, or the Bb and C springs are too heavy, or there could be a lot of friction between the upper end of the con bar and the adjusting screw tip - all these would cause things to be sluggish.
As it's only recently been serviced, the key barrels and screws would've all been cleaned up and oiled - check the Bb and C keys on their own (by closing them slowly and then releasing them) to see if they open and close normally (without any resistance or sluggishness).
If there's enough room between the adjusting screw when the Bb key is held closed (by holding it or LH3 closed) and the upper end of the con bar is held down (by the thumbplate when its left at rest), see if you can coat the surface of the small key cork on the top side of the upper end of the con bar with graphite by rubbing it with a soft lead pencil. That should reduce the friction between the con bar and the adjusting screw. Be careful you don't tear the key cork off while doing this.
If that doesn't work, it sounds like it could be the spring tensions being out of balance with each other - unless you know how to balance the springs (which could involve removing three keys) then I'd strongly recommend you take it back to have it sorted out.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2011-12-28 16:22
For the time being, wrap an elastic band tightly around the bottom of the top joint, over the con-bar connector. This may add enough spring return so that you can play until you can take the oboe back to the shop.
J.
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