 The Oboe BBoard
|
Author: JRC
Date: 2010-11-17 13:06
The reed is playing wonderful but playing too sharp for one reason or another; oboe warmed up, tip was cut too much, or another two million three oboist reasons. No reed plays right when pulled out a little bit to make it look longer. The empty space in the socket screws things up acoustically. I used to keep those reed for practice only or try to fix it in some way and destroy it in the process. Usual destination of the reed use to be in trash can.
I learned a trick from Mr. Geoffrey Bridge who suggested a metal ferrule in the reed socket. It was too much work to make metal ferrules, not to mention expensive. I found 1/4" OD 3/16" ID Teflon tubing that come in different color. Cut 1, 2, 3, 4mm pieces in different color. Depending on how sharp it is playing, I pick a piece and drop it in the socket before I place the reed. It is like pulling the reed out but there is no empty space to screw things up.
It works great! One caution however. Low notes will play flatter and high notes will play sharper in general. In my case, lipping up or down is within my usual range with up to 3mm. This takes care of my oboe becoming sharp as it warms up. ...... one less conversation with oboe ...... And a Margaux M2 is off my wish list.
I hope it helps someone.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-11-17 16:34
I recently made an oboe d'amore reed (using those Guerico with oboe-size cork) staples and stuck it in my oboe. Works great! Somewhat sharp, especially on the 2nd octave keys (this is fine by me, my Loree usually plays those notes flat!) but no sign of instability whatsoever.
In this case, it is not possible to pull out the staple. I'll try a few other tricks. But my point is that there is a lot of empty space between the bottom of the staple and this did not affect stability or anything. I suppose I can try your tubing technique and see if that will solve the sharp 2nd octave key notes.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mschmidt
Date: 2010-11-18 03:24
How do you know that the empty space in the reed socket screws things up acoustically? I've never had that problem. I don't often pull a reed out, but that's because it usually doesn't do much good, not because it screws things up acoustically. It "seems plausible" that the empty space would affect things acoustically, but in acoustics, as in many other scientific disciplines, we find that our intuition is wrong. Nederveen found, in his pioneering work on woodwind acoustics, that irregularities or discontinuities in bore profiles often were neutral or even beneficial. Of course, if you think that pulling a reed out should screw things up, you are more likely to observe that it does. No reed ever plays all notes right all the time; it is easy to find reasons why this might be, but it's almost impossible to prove the importance of those reasons.
Those of you who have been around here for a while will recognize the above as my "common refrain," but I can't refrain from singing my refrain now and again.
If you're lucky enough to have a reed that plays sharp, take some off the sides of the heart. Your pitch will drop and your reed will be more playable AND have a more colorful sound. Fixing a flat reed is much harder and the results are far less satisfactory!
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-11-18 09:45
Please do not refrain from that lovely refrain...
Your pet peeve is acoustics and science, my pet peeve is urban myths about reed making and embouchure, but we're both about bringing reason back to the practice. I have read others who seek the same.
Interesting what you say about bore irregularities being beneficial. I return to my 1921 Pan American student (beginner?) model. The most irregular innards I've ever seen (African blackwood), but its tone is beautiful and never a hint of instability - not even with mediocre reeds.
Of course, its tuning is not enviable, however it is predictable and consistant. Definitely better than contemporary beginner instruments (Bundy, Linton...)
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JRC
Date: 2010-11-18 15:49
I apologize for suggesting a solution to a problem that does not seem to exist for some people (few exceedingly assured of themselves) in this community.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-11-18 16:37
JRC, you need not apologize. I know quite a few people who do what you do, but for different reasons. In Europe, it is common for a traveling musician to have to play 440 in the UK and then straight to 443 in Germany. Imagine that!
Regards,
Howard
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-11-18 18:48
For Pete's sake don't apologize: these questions are really important!
1. suppose for an instant that the post is ridiculous (yours is actually quite good!): other people are probably thinking the same thing and need the discussion to learn
2. suppose your question is good (and this one is): many people might be too shy to ask it and can benefit from your brave voice!
3. in all cases, these postings begin discussions that bring about new insights - different opinions viewpoints and experiences are a true wealth when shared.
Thanks for the initial post and keep it up!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
Post Edited (2010-11-18 23:57)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2010-11-24 17:53
I agree with Mike. The difference if any is negligible for 1 - 3 mms at least.
If the cork is compressed and then loose in the socket, it won't hold it place if backed out. Here is a trick to help that.
Moisten the cork in your mouth or rub it with water (not dripping wet though) and quickly and briefly move a lit match or lighter around the cork. It will expand and then regain its grip in the socket.
It will probably darken a bit, but use care not to char it.
Post Edited (2010-11-24 18:43)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: lbarton
Date: 2010-11-25 17:14
How refreshing to hear a few people agree with me that pulling a reed slightly (1-3 ml) is not a mortal sin. I have read and been told that this is a no-no but continue to do it for many reasons. Often a rehearsal hall is overheated and pitch goes way up, a reed cut during one season of year plays slightly different in different season, one's embouchure may be tighter when very tired etc etc. I have played many years, and am generally considered to have good intonation. I've not found it much of a problem if I have to pull a reed (but only slightly) to make the pitch a bit lower.
However I have had little success in trying to remedy flat reeds--sometime a very slight shortening of the tip helps, but then you generally need to adjust the whole tip to make it responsive again. Professional players spend much time making new reeds and immediately discarding any not exactly to their taste. Many of us serious amateurs who play in community and college orchestras do not have the time to do this. Lois Barton
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-11-25 19:15
By no means a sin of any kind!
There are a whole lot of urban myths concerning oboe reeds out there.... they usually have very fuzzy and unverified justifications.
Flat reeds can SOMETIMES be remedied by shortening the staple (a diamond-grit sharpening stone, coarse, is good for that) by 2-3 mm. Problem is, reeds go flat for all kinds of reasons. If the same supplier typically gives you good reeds and only a few go flat, it's probably for reasons you can't work on:
- wimpy cane
- non-standard staple in the lot
- scraping problems
- crack in one of the blades (often invisible)
- wimpy cane
These are often next to impossible to fix, and sometimes difficult to predict (on the maker's side).
Oboe reeds are much more expensive than single reeds, so I understand you wanting them to work. Perhaps you can keep those in a separate box and do a "binge fix" on some lonely (sunny) weekend?
Best of luck and best encouragements!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JRC
Date: 2010-11-25 20:18
I understand that flatness is a prevalent symptom of Phili style reeds. That means moat "American" players. The more you take off, the flatter you get....!
A by-product is insensitivity to a little void at the bottom of the reed socket!
Post Edited (2010-11-25 20:32)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-11-26 15:10
Proper rails and spine and/or thicker should alleviate this effect of the Philli style. The "American" scrape also seems to be used in the Netherlands (please correct me if I'm wrong) as described at:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Oboe-2282/2009/4/Dutch-style-oboe-reed-1.htm
And they gouge their cane very thickly!
But I have found that the style is just too difficult and does not yield enough benefit. In fact, there is nothing described about "windowed" reeds that I cannot reproduce with "short-scrape". MIND YOU: I include in "European scrape" the reeds where I remove the bark all the way to the thread or those with a U or W 3/4 of the way down.
For me its all about getting thinner towards the tip, never any dips or bumps (though sharp steps are certainly allowed!).
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-11-26 16:05
I have found that with the addition of a wire - it is much easier to play in pitch.
The wire is one more way to create reed/pitch stability since the wire maintains a stable and adjustable reed opening.
You can lower pitch with a slightly larger opening and conversely lower it with a narrower opening.
In the past I was at the mercy on the curvature of the cane and its idiosyncratic attributes. However, there is only so much you can do to a piece of cane with the knife to adjust particular properties.
Wire, gives you one more tool to use - to adjust the cane's behavior.!
So before you toss out a reed - experiment with a wire - it just might save it and even more - make it into a good playable reed.
Mark
Post Edited (2010-11-26 16:06)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-11-26 16:24
The more tools the better!
I have just never had luck with wire - and no one to teach me to use it correctly - so I gave up before learning how.
With more open reeds, you need to bite more. I find that thinner cane means less strife on the lips. When I used to gouge at 0.63 (new Alliaud) with more even sides, my lips would bleed after a few hours of straight practice. Now at 0.58 (old Rigotti) and thinner sides, I barely get tired.
You are right, though: any one specific piece of tied cane and a knife can only go so far and adaptability is a powerful ally.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-11-26 17:20
Robin,
Biting is always a bad sign .................. If a reed is too open - you can always squeeze it to close it more - I find with the wire - I can press it on the sides or on the width of the reed - one will open and one will close the reed - or you can slip it up or down to the same effect - which is my first preference.
I try to make my reeds a free blowing as a possible - "no biting" - maybe a firmer embouchure to raise pitch or get some of the very high notes to speak - depending upon the reed and that reed would not be my first preference.
One lips should not bleed and for that matter became sore from teeth marks.
If that happens - then the reed is just not right.
Fatigue should only happen in the muscles supporting the embouchure.
Mark
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-11-26 19:07
I fully agree with your take on scored/cut lips, with or without bleeding. The distinction between firm embouchure and biting might allow a fuzzy grey-zone, however. I don't know if this is what French (France) people mean when they talk about a biting embouchure as being their standard.
In an older post, I wrote that this is precisely why, 2-3 years ago, I decided to re-invent the way I make reeds by applying engineering methodology to the process. Months of experimentation finally yielded a making style whereby reeds:
1. are easy to play
2. allow full dynamic range (ppp - fff)
3. make my Loree play with stability
4. sound dark or bright or anything as I choose
5. allow easy staccato, even in soft low notes
6. are easy to make (consistent results with little strife, if ever)
It turns out that I didn't need to spend all that time, just remember what my old teacher used to say and learn the German scrape better. But having applied the methodology removed any doubts while confirming what doesn't work.
As you say, reeds can be more or less open without requiring biting to the point of soreness.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-11-26 23:11
Robin,
Maybe with a heavy German type reed - "a biting embouchure" is required since the reed will not go sharp or out or pitch with the firmness (bite). The German Oboist as we have seen on The YouTube masterclass - work very hard making those reeds work and yet have great intonation.
On a lighter American scraped reed with a thinner gouge etc ... I don't think it would work in the same manner.
I have never played on a German reed and all my information is anecdotal - so.........
Mark
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-11-27 02:54
Hi Mark, i have personally tried, in many occasions, American style reed, and to have liked them...to a certain degree. Try some short scrape reeds yourself, it might be worth investigating!
Howard
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-11-27 11:52
Hello Mark,
Your points are very good and important to remember. But perhaps you missed where I wrote that my reeds are easy to play: several hours without getting tired. And I can assure you that I am nowhere near in shape like I used to be 15 years ago, so playing hours on end without getting tired is a big deal for me.
This is in line with the German model proposed by:
http://www.dirigent63.de/15.html
=> though his drawings are incomplete compared to backlit pictures and zooming in of Christoph Hartmann CD covers (somewhere else on the BBoard).
My purpose is not to put down American style - not at all. I just want no misconceptions about the need to bite on European reeds: this is completely false as European styled reeds can be made and adjusted to fit any set of sound requirements (including pitch/tuning, tone and dynamic expression) and any person's physiognomy.
My method (more important than final picture) is described at http://robin-hautbois.users.sourceforge.net/anches/index.html and my final reeds look mostly like pictres #11, #12 and more and more often (with the thinner cane) like #14, especially on oboe d'amore reeds. Most importantly, it is easy to make consistently good reeds with this method, whereas every I have mostly heard complaints of difficulty and discouragement from other methods.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-11-27 16:05
Howard,
From Whom should I buy my first European scraped reed?
Or should I make one myself.
My gouge is .58 ......................... the shape RDG -1n ...
Mark
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-11-27 16:18
-1n might be way too narrow for a european scrape....unless you make it extremely long and with very open cane....thick sides gouging will also prevent you from being able to scrape it the right way....if you do want to go ahead with making one, try -1 cane with thin sides and 58 should be alright. try K. Ge reeds. order the narrow medium soft ones. 72mm works for most people. you could go for 71mm. you can mention you are trying on recommendation from me. mention also that you want reeds that dont overlap. they do sometimes, and i dont believe they are intentional. at least...i never do so myself....
Howard
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
