 The Oboe BBoard
|
Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-07-12 14:54
I am seriously considering buying a new gouger with the ability to adjust multiple gouging attributes.
I would like to know how various settings, for example, side thickness, curve slope etc ... influences reed performance i.e., pitch ... tone.
The Westwind machine holds some interest for me.
I am determined to make the best performance reeds possible.
Mark
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-12 19:10
The only 2 things you really want to control are thickness and relative curvature (between the inside and outside of the cane). In both cases, experience will tell you as much as anyone else can. 2 important links are:
http://www.reedmaster.com/IsYourOboeCaneGougerOutOfWhack.html
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=10&i=15967&t=15898
It's possible that my old klunker is a Graf. I HATE IT precisely because it has too many possible settings. If I can convince my wife, its possible that in the near future I'll buy a new one.
Whatever you do, keep away from those models that use a double wedge to adjust height: I think nowadays its the roller itself that goes up and down. This is important to ensure parallelism between the bed and the movement of the plane (blade).
I am now favouring having as many things "machined-in" as opposed to adjustable.
Best of luck.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-12 20:35
Do you think there's any hope at adjusting a blade whose circular center is off from the longitudinal center: that is, the curve is off to the side of the blade?
I can redo the curve.... time and tears... but if twisting a screw can help, I'd prefer that. Right now, my blade is cutting nice and evenly from side to center to side (same rate of thinning from center to either side), but if I'm not careful, the plane will twist the cane to one side (towards the sliding shaft).
Thanks!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cjwright
Date: 2010-07-12 23:02
Are you asking if a single radius machine can act as a double radius machine? Not really.
The shape of a single radius machine is more circular if not completely circular, but the diameter is much bigger than the single radius machine, which will not result in the right proportions.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-13 00:30
Attachment: gougeRadius.jpg (34k)
No, I just meant that the blade's shape is wrong (badly centered). I had no choice but to take the time and reshape it by hand. It worked decently enough.
But while wer're at it, this "double radius" thing, does it work as follows:
1. blade well centered with its guide (of course)
2. the guide can be offset with respect to the bed therefore
a) one side is thinner than the other
b) when the cane is turned around, both sides are the same
So if I understood, the attached image would show the difference between single and double radius gouging.
What are the advantages to double gouging?
Thanks
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jhoyla
Date: 2010-07-13 08:02
Robin,
I have used double-radius-gouged cane in the past, though I do not gouge cane myself. Your picture would seem to be correct, except that the blade is usually of a smaller diameter than the bed.
The end result is that double-radius gouged cane has a slightly thicker ridge down the centre (as in your picture). I expect that the width, geometry and thickness of the ridge is controlled by the bed offset.
I think the same effect could be achieved by being able to rotate the bed longitudinally, along its axis, without needing to reverse the cane. However, if you reverse the cane you can ensure that the overall result is exactly centered.
One thing has always puzzled me about gouged cane. When you get a fresh piece of gouged cane it has very distinct ridges along its length, due to the grain of the cane. However, once you have scraped a reed, the top surface of the reed is perfectly smooth, without ridges.
Often while making a reed from commercially gouged cane I will notice a longitudinal line of weakness that is on both blades in the same position - obviously this is either a natural problem with the cane, or a problem with the gouge.
Why is it not possible to gauge the cane so that it is perfectly smooth on the inside, with no ridges?
J.
Post Edited (2010-07-13 08:05)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-13 11:34
How did you dis/like the single vs double radius? I think I'm getting a similar result by reshaping the blade manually.
Rough cane (inside) is due to a few things:
1. the cane closest to the bark is more densely packed than the inside and therefore smoother; plus the pressure of the knife and stroke movement don't cut the same way as the gouger - which is just a really complex woodworking plane.
2. gouging is not a smooth process: it litterally rips the grains off the inside, especially if the blade is set to produce a thicker shaving. When the cane is wet, grains will sometimes give way (microscopically) and give that not-smooth feeling. When the cane dries, other grains will "bounce back", so you can tell density by rolling the inside on your thumbnail.
3. commercial producers may not have time to resharpen the blade as often as one would like: sharpening the blade means recalibrating the machine every time!
My own experience, is that SOME things need not be as precise or perfect as people often complain about. Our measuring instruments are precise to 0.01mm (a few thousandths of an inch), but cane is a "living" material, not rigid like aluminum and therefore behaves "as it wants to" from piece to piece.
"Trends" are more important than final measurements. For example, with shapers, if the tip has 0.02mm more or less than another tip, it is not such a big deal, but the effect of that difference on the curvature does contribute to the reed's behaviour. The overall silouhette is more significant than the measurement.
For gouging, it's the rate of thinning between the inside curve and outside curve that makes a difference. When the cane is shaped, a lot of that thinning rate is lost below the middle of the silouhette. Perhaps someone can do a combined Ph.D. (music and applied science) and clarify this riddle, because I think a lot of us are "winging it" by trial and error.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-13 11:56
My machine (all brass) is so badly worn that matching the guide to the blade (and vice-versa) is not only impossible, but ridiculous! I guess that's why the cane is often "thrown" to one side or the other when gouging. The placques that hold back the cane and the spring-clips both wrecked the cylindrical shape of the guide over the years.
By keeping the shavings between 0.05 and 0.1mm, the problem is significantly minimized. The result is perfectly satisfactory for my own use.
Good thing I don't do this commercially! Sheeesss, to fix the problem, I had to take the machine apart to find holes in the bed worn-in by the alan screws over the years (making re-calibration impossible) and smooth them out by hand with a dremmel-tool!
To anyone interested, buy a NEW machine, and avoid soft metals! Save yourselves the headache, the extra price is worth it!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jhoyla
Date: 2010-07-13 13:42
Thanks Robin,
Back when I was using the double-radius cane my reed-making skills were nowhere near consistent enough for me to venture an opinion today.
Sometimes the thicker center was visible when back-lit; very useful when centering the cane on the shaper, tying on and also scraping. So much so, I wonder if drawing an indelible thin black guideline along the inner spine of the gouged cane would help the inexperienced reedmaker? probably!
Thanks for your answers. Never having used a gouger it is hard for me to visualize how the blade cuts the cane. I have heard that some people smooth the inside of the cane with a hand scraping tool before shaping. would this be a good thing to do, in your opinion?
It seems strange to me that we scrape the reed so painstakingly on the outside, yet the inner surface will always remain coarsely cut, comparatively. I have always suspected that the gouge has far more of an effect on the finished reed than we give credit for.
J.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-13 14:25
Your comment on gouge vs. scraping (I suspect) is important. I haven't experimented enough yet, but I believe you are right. My observation so far is that the purpose of scraping is to just let the cane play as naturally as it can. So strange: I have one reed that, when backlit, looks almost fully English, yet it sounds very warm and mellow.
I also believe tying is just as influential as scraping and I prefer the French notion of no overlap at all. Where instability results from no overlap, I blame it on the gouge and/or the shape and/or the staple; but how deeply the shape is tied onto the staple is a whole other issue. In my mind, tying to an specified length should only serve as a guideline.
By smoothing the inside with a hand-scraping tool, are you referring to Fig. 7 on p. 17 of the Barret Oboe Method? I didn't know people still use that. Before gouging, this is completely pointless. Also, Cooper had mentioned certain pre-gougers that squeeze the grains a bit and he didn't like the result. I think with modern means to sharpening knives etc., there is no need to do any smoothing after the gouge. HOWEVER, there is a trick I do to prevent overlapping: after shaping the cane, I use a dull-ish knife to flatten the edges of the cane, just a little bit. This way, instead of sharp edges trying to direct each other out of the way, there are small flat areas resting on each other.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jhoyla
Date: 2010-07-14 07:00
Hi Robin,
I have Martin Schuring's edition of the Barret method, and it does not contain the section to which you refer. Obviously, scraping the inside of the cane should be done after the gouge but before folding, if at all.
I think the main purpose would be to smooth out troughs caused by fibres that were ripped out by the gouger. These could cause longitudinal weaknesses if allowed to remain in the cane. Perhaps the same effect could be achieved by gouging very lightly (zero vertical pressure) for the final few strokes.
I also agree that tying is very important. Tying too tightly - even if one does not tie over the end of the staple - can throttle a reed and prevent good vibration. I have experimented with this as follows:
A reed that was well scraped and looked excellent with good measurements was not vibrating well. I wrapped the blades in cling-film/saran-wrap to keep them in place, cut the crossover thread to release the pressure, and then wrapped up to the top again with a new thread (more lightly this time). Hey presto - a magical reed! I deduce from this that wrapping too tightly can stifle a reed.
Regarding the flattening of the edges of the shaped cane, my teacher showed me how to do this 35 years ago! care must be taken not to make nicks in the cane since these will definitely leak.
There is a small device one can purchase to hold the blades in the perfect position for tying with no overlap, as seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpBJL3w17vM
I use a narrow roll of cling-film and achieve good results.
Other methods that I have read about include creating a little fully-folded dolly using thin cotton thread, and then tying the soaked cane tightly onto a heated mandrel, letting it cool and then releasing. The resulting cane is pre-formed to the shape of the staple in this manner with no danger of cracking while wrapping onto the staple subsequently.
J.
Post Edited (2010-07-14 07:06)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-14 12:11
HOLY COW:
At first look, that cane-guide looks less than impressive but as soon as the video shows the cane being placed in the guide, and especially when the staple is inserted, it becomes clearly obvious - a real "no brainer" - as to how that little gizmo is really amazing. I'm definitely ordering one!
Thanks also for your tip on not tying too tightly. I will try that: it does make sense in terms of physics: you want the cane to be held in place, but too much pressure exerted will quash the natural "spring-back" of the shape. I suspect this is particularly important for wide shapes and soft cane.
Question:
from the auto-signature at the top of your post, I take it that either you are Israeli or that you are spending time there. Does the weather change a lot over there? How do reeds react to the climate?
Over here (from south-west Ontario to New-Brunswick, roughly a third of Canada) we all agree that changing weather is murder on reeds and reed making in general. For example, the current hot-humid weather is opening the reeds and causing instability. The dry-cold winter spells flattens the cane, reduces the dynamic range and buzzes-up the sound.
In fact, it is much agreed that making reeds in the rain is a complete waste of time and cane.
Thanks
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jhoyla
Date: 2010-07-15 06:27
Let us know how this gadget works for you? I haven't bought one but may consider it, if you recommend it enough. I thought it could make it more difficult to "true" the line of the blades wrt. the staple, something I do by eye while wrapping.
Quote:
I take it that either you are Israeli or that you are spending time there. Does the weather change a lot over there? How do reeds react to the climate?
Guilty as charged - don't get confused by the way my posts seem to come from various different places. I work for a multinational and our WAN tunnels to the web via edge servers all over the world. I live in Israel and rarely travel.
The weather here is generally hot and almost never drops below zero, unless you live in the Jerusalem hills or the Golan heights. We had our last rain shower about two months ago, and I don't expect to see any rain until late September. My reeds react more to changes in elevation than weather, though on particularly dry days it is a challenge to keep cane moist enough to play (it can dry out on-stage between movements of a symphony).
Quote:
In fact, it is much agreed that making reeds in the rain is a complete waste of time and cane.
I wish I had more opportunities to test this :(
J.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
