 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-07-09 08:05
Looking for recommendations for gougers, how much it costs and where to get them.
Also, looking recommendations for the brands and types of tools I need to get for splitting cane etc.
I have been buying cane with a Gilbert gouge because it has been consistent for me. I am planning to gouge my own cane, so that I have more control of the reeds I make.
Thx
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-09 16:03
Baroque repertoire RULES!!!!
For sure, the actual equipment required is as follows:
(1) Gouging machine : around $1500 USD
(2) Pre-gouger : from 100-500$ : cheap is good enough for me
(3) cane splitter (3-way): I use an arrow head from a hunting goods store
(4) micrometer based on a comparator: many models (be sure to ask for metric!)
(5) radius gage
=> and a trustworthy supplier of "tube" cane. In the past, I had been pleasantly surprized with California Cane (obtained from Brian Charles Double Reed Supply). With the French, quality really depends on the vendor.
Yes, (2) is important. Sometimes I split my cane in 2 with a knife, so the pre-gouger is crucial to preparing the cane for the gouging-machine.
The only piece that's of any concern is (1). I don't know the available machies at all, you might want to contact Cooper directly at his shop - some of his replies to my questions were really useful. One thing you need to consider is the ease/difficulty in adjusting the monster - they are a real headache! Forrest's shows many models. I'm hoping that #H-32 is as good as it looks: it looks like a one-piece unit with the adjustment machined-in. Otherwise, they all follow the same principle of screws and bolts to change the relative orientation between the bed and the blade-plane on all 3 axes.
Cooper mentioned single and double radii (radiusses?) machines - I don't know anything in this respect. I reshape the blade myself, but I really discourage others from doing it: in my case, its because my machine is so old and I've tweaked it so much that no one else will touch it!
If you can get a used (1), you might be able to fix-it up or find someone willing. You can send out e-mails to stores and see if they can help you with that.
(4) comes in 3 models: (a) with 2 rods touching tip and another (b) with a sideways sliver on which you put your finished reed. I don't use (b) at all because I just don't believe that measuring finished reeds can construct a reusable model..... but many will disagree with me. (a), in my opinion, is more useful for gouging, but others might explain if (b) can be used too.
I built by own base for (4) which means I paid 50$ for the dial back when comparators were around 150$. BUT, sensitive task to ensure precision: its all about trigonometry!
Instead of (5), I just use my calipper (which I find very handy for tying too). The important thing about selecting cane before gouging is flatness (more than radius) which you test on a table.
I like the service from Roseau Chantant, but I don't see any problem with Forrest's or RDG or oboe-shop.de. Of course, anything made by Kunibert Michel (Germany) is great.
http://www.oboe-shop.de/catalog/index.php?cPath=52_67&osCsid=7534c9600775b543b46ec2b5976d5fdb
http://www.forrestsmusic.com/gougers.htm
http://www.le-roseau.ca/products_reed_en.php?secID=31
Best of luck!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: johnt
Date: 2010-07-09 16:45
Hello hautbois francais,
Dan Ross has, IMHO the best equipment for the best price. His arrowhead spltter can't be beat. His gouger does the job consistently & is simple to adjust. Get his "duck" to measure cane to be sure it will fit in the bed. Highly recommend the crank pre-gouger from Udo Heng (Reeds n Stuff in Germany) A terrific machine; a little less in cost than the Dan Ross gouger, also terrific. The crank pre-gouger is a great time saver, which at the same time saves wear & tear on the gouger blade. Anything ever goes wrong with the Dan Ross gouger (nothing ever does) just mail it back to him for maintenance/blade sharpening/replacement. I've had mine since 2006 & my Innoledy gathers dust. I sold my RDG a couple of years ago. I keep the Innoledy on hand because it is a slick machine. It also does the job & Liang Wang of the NY Phil uses it as does Jennet Ingle from the Chicago area…two oboists who again IMHO have absolutely impeccable quality of sound, at least to my ears. So there ya go. YMMV. Dan & Udo both have excellent websites. The ones I recommend: Ross first & Innoledy second are both single radius.
Get Cooper's opinion, though. He's worked with almost all of them, single radius as well as with the off-centers, Driscoll, Graf, etc.
If I were going to buy another one now, I'd spring for Udo's rotatable circular blade gouger. I really like that concept. When the arc of the cutting edge gets dull, rotate the blade 120 degrees & rock on; that gets dull, rotate another 120 & when that arc goes, replace the blade.
Best,
john
Post Edited (2010-07-09 16:48)
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2010-07-09 22:21
Before you decide to buy a gouging machine, things to consider:
1. Do you just want a machine to get started, or want a machine that as you learn more about gouging, you can continue to improve and learn upon?
2. Are you a tinkerer, and want something to adjust/play with or do you want it to just work, and sit as a doorstop when not in use.
3. Do you want a more vibrant gouge which you can scrape down to be duller and darker, or do you want a thicker gouge which you scrape to "release' vibrations.
4. Do you like blanks with smaller openings or blanks with larger openings.
5. What shape do you prefer, wider or narrower.
6. Customer service. some manufacturers are more helpful than others.
7. Price: The cheapest is the Ross or maybe the Opus 1, sitting right around $1000. The more expensive ones are the RDG, Ferrillo, Kunibert Michel, and Reeds N Stuff (Udo Heng) ranging from $1500-$2000.
One last thing: I really don't like pregouging on the machines described by Johnt that take off most of the cane. Others use the innoledy in a similar fashion. I know many people who do this, my professor Martin Schuring included, but I think it changes the dimensions of the end gouge. The grains are pulled and pushed in a certain manner by a gouging machine. I can't exactly explain what the difference in the end result is, but that I definitely feel it when it happens. So when you first start with a a machine, I would suggest using it just the way it was intended, gouging the entire piece rather than using a separate mechanism to get you half way there. Then as you become more proficient in changing, adjusting, or regrinding the gouge, you can set it up differently so that using the pre-gouging pregouger effects the end result in a positive way.
Cooper
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-07-10 01:35
1. It is likely I will use the gouger for the long term, not just to get started but to learn and improve on my gouging knowledge.
2. Like Robin, I am a compulsive tinkerer, not afraid to take it apart and improve on it, only after I have mastered the basics of using the gouger, though.
3. For a start i will use 0.58 -0.62 gouge. It is unlikely I will go thicker gouge for a start, so as to reduce my variables. Scraping to make it vibrant does take a heck of a long time, but I believe the sound produced by scraping comes out much better with the slow and steady strokes.
4. Doesnt the opening depend on the diameter of the cane ? The larger the diameter of the cane will give a bigger arc length and makes the opening smaller. For the start, I will just do a standard diameter and a medium opening. I dont particularly like a small opening, makes the sound soft and will not project well.
5. Likely, to start with something that would fit my Nagamatsu #1 shaper.
6. Customer service ? Europe is probably terrible with customer service, from experience, unless you attempt to communicate in THEIR native language. Even that is hell of a job to get them to do what you want them to do.
7. The gouger doesnt have to be neccessarily the cheapest, but one that will do the job as described above and allow me some flexibility to at the very least, change the thickess of the gouge.
I agree and see your point about getting a pre-gouger. I believe there are no short cuts to making good reeds. From your post, I take it you can make do with a good gouger to slowly gouge down to get the thickness down to what you want, is this right ?
Everyone has covered all the brands except the Gilbert, and I am wondering if you, Robin and others have comments about the Gilbert. I would love to hear it.
Thx for the comments and inputs. I have found them very valuable in evaluating and gathering info for what I need to do.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-10 02:38
Like I said, I only know my own gouger.
Adjusting for thickness should be the easiest thing on all machines. There is normally a double wedge that stops the plane from going any lower: the wedges slide to go higher-lower and there is a bolt to fixate them.
But cane density also affects thickness: I've found that soft cane usually gouges thinner and hard cane thicker. I think soft cane expands more when wet, therefore gets thinner when it settles down.
I had found this website on adjusting machines http://www.reedmaster.com/IsYourOboeCaneGougerOutOfWhack.html. I was glad to read in it confirmation of what I had learned through trial and error: the best settings for blade depth is when shavings are between 0.05 and 0.1mm thick. The thickness of the shavings will change depending on how deep in the grains you're at at any given swipe: you'll understand quickly enough. I think most vendors are very careful when packaging, so you should be fine for a good while.
Best of luck!
p.s.:
No offense, please, but do stores over here serve clientelle in Dutch, Swomi or Urdu? I think its natural that any establishment speak the language of its own country - even to the exclusion of all others. And as a former teacher of French second language to the Federal gouv., I can tell some stories about Anglos....
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
Post Edited (2010-07-10 02:43)
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-07-10 03:04
Robin:
As I said, i have virtually zero experience with a gouger. I read somewhere that u are partial to the Kunibert Michel and that u own one. Is the Kunibert made for tinkering with it ? How do u sharpen the blade, do you have to send it back ? What diameter did u get ? Seems u need to specify on purchase, so you probably cant change the diameter wheu u want to do experiments with the diameter. Just looked at their site.
What is your take on pre gougers ? What kind did you get ? You had said cheap is good enough.
Your p/s: My comms were always e-mail and most of the time written Engish is the biggest problem in Europe. Fortunately, I am also trained in written French, Italian and German. But not at their native levels, I must say. But, at least I try very hard to communicate in their native language, and yet, they often make mistakes, by shipping the wrong thing, or short changed me on items, when everything was ordered online and in black and white....then i have to make an extra effort to try to recover my losses if they short changed me, or try to get the wrong thing re-shipped, but then I had to ship the wrong thing back at my cost, and often they wont reimburse me for my cost of shipping things back. What an ordeal if mistakes happen !! I usually would like to try to get it in US even if I have to pay more, just for the convenience.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2010-07-10 03:40
Quote:
1. It is likely I will use the gouger for the long term, not just to get started but to learn and improve on my gouging knowledge.
2. Like Robin, I am a compulsive tinkerer, not afraid to take it apart and improve on it, only after I have mastered the basics of using the gouger, though.
Then I would not suggest a single radius gouging machine such as a Ross or and RDG which you can't really adjust or change other than what it comes as. If you can find an old graf machine, they usually go from $500-$800 depending on the condition. There's a lot of variables and tinkering you can do with these machines.
Quote:
3. For a start i will use 0.58 -0.62 gouge. It is unlikely I will go thicker gouge for a start, so as to reduce my variables. Scraping to make it vibrant does take a heck of a long time, but I believe the sound produced by scraping comes out much better with the slow and steady strokes.
In the gouging world, these numbers mean very little. I could give you five gouges with exactly those numbers and they would all feel starkly different. The important thing is the curve and ratio of decay as it tapers out to the sides. The curve shape is more important than numbers of thickness.
Quote:
4. Doesnt the opening depend on the diameter of the cane ? The larger the diameter of the cane will give a bigger arc length and makes the opening smaller. For the start, I will just do a standard diameter and a medium opening. I dont particularly like a small opening, makes the sound soft and will not project well.
The diameter of the cane effects the size of the opening very little compared to the curve of the blade, and the ratio of the sides to center thickness. I can gouge 11.5 or even 12.0 mm cane on a very open gouge and it would still feel very open. What a larger diameter would effect more is if the diameter is too big for the bed, the piece of cane won't sit all the way flat, and therefore would gouge thin.
Quote:
5. Likely, to start with something that would fit my Nagamatsu #1 shaper.
A wider shape. You need to make sure to have a gouge that is thick enough on the sides.
Quote:
6. Customer service ? Europe is probably terrible with customer service, from experience, unless you attempt to communicate in THEIR native language. Even that is hell of a job to get them to do what you want them to do.
Udo Heng offers pretty good customer service. I'm not sure who's making the Kunibert Michel copy, (Kunibert stopped making them a while ago,), but I would assume Udo is making it as well.
RDG services their machines quickly. Dan Ross does a good job servicing his machines. Robin, well, is a busy man.
Quote:
7. The gouger doesnt have to be neccessarily the cheapest, but one that will do the job as described above and allow me some flexibility to at the very least, change the thickess of the gouge.
Like I said, I think the ideal first step would be to just get a cheap old graf machine and start with that. When you get more experienced with gouging, blade curves, etc, you can buy cane gouged on other machines to get a sense of different curves out there, and go from there. Robin Driscoll has a great machine which is can be adjusted easily, however he teaches at a university, performs in a professional symphony, and does the gouging machine business, so he's so darn busy, it's hard to get a machine from him, not to mention getting it serviced.
Quote:
I agree and see your point about getting a pre-gouger. I believe there are no short cuts to making good reeds. From your post, I take it you can make do with a good gouger to slowly gouge down to get the thickness down to what you want, is this right ?
This correct.
Quote:
Everyone has covered all the brands except the Gilbert, and I am wondering if you, Robin and others have comments about the Gilbert. I would love to hear it.
Thx for the comments and inputs. I have found them very valuable in evaluating and gathering info for what I need to do.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-07-10 04:01
Cooper:
What is the standard diameter to get for a American style reed ?
I wont even know where to start to try to get a used Graf machine let alone evaluate the used Graf if it is in good condition.
From the research material and sites that you guys have given me, maybe, i have to forego the tinkering and start from basics first, before trying to get a gouger that can do everything and allows flexibiity.
I have seen gougers with a micrometer dial , some with a guillotine and nice added features. With these added features, though convenient, I am wondering are these machines any good ? I have seen the selections at Forrests music site. The other is the German site oboe-shop.de, that I looked at.
Dan Ross is cheap, is this a starter unit ?
Thx for the help.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-10 11:16
I own a beaten-up old clunker of a gouger, custom-made in the 1950-60's by God knows who for a Toronto oboist of that time. I like Kunibert Michel products from having used them, but not for long. His shaper tips, in my opinion are sensational - I have not yet tried Nagamatsu (I'll do that next week).
My pre-gouger was also likely custom made as it is the simiplest thing you've ever seen: but that's OK, the purpose of the pre-gouger is only to get the cane to fit in the machine.
=> I might buy a new one, similar to the one at http://www.rdgwoodwinds.com/oboe-damore-pregouger-115mm-p-140.html just because I'm tired of cutting my fingers (slipping over the cane) on the one I have now!
=> gougers often come with a "guillotine": a cane chopper that is used after the pre-gouging..... I don't see how you could chop before pre-gouging.
My advice on sharpening and re-shaping the blade: don't do it!!!! get a professional to do it!. If you have to ask how it's done, best not do that. It's REALLY hard to get right and takes a long time to redo the setup.
=>"Tinkering", in this case, is not where you'll make several changes a day. Usually, I make an educated (purposeful) change, gouge a few hundred pieces over several months, compare the results and then choose to keep it as is or change and start over again.
=> Changing weather seems to affect the reeds just as much as cane specifications, so I need to use the same specs. over a very long time to really determine the results.
It's all about the relative curve between the bed and the blade, which becomes the outside and inside of the cane. Obviously, to play with the curve, you need a good old fashioned plane-type blade similar to http://www.forrestsmusic.com/detail/H-32_Image.htm. The idea is that the only thing a person should hope to worry about is the blade, nothing else.
==>> But I often consider buying a new machine from a place that sells blades in different diameter and offers sharpening services!
Diameter: of course, it's always best to get a machine bed with exactly the diameter you want, but when the cane is well soaked, it will mold itself to slightly different diameters. What I do is use my comparator micrometer to measure the difference between center and side. Copper gave great info in his reply to my posts http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=10&i=15967&t=15898
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
Post Edited (2010-07-10 11:20)
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-07-10 12:38
Robin:
Iam wondering, if you own a clinker from the 50s, and it never ever broke ? You must have had the blade sharpened at one time or other, since it is an old machine. Dont you feel that you need to get a backup gouger ? Mechanical things have wear and tear, and sometimes due to age, it is often unrepairable if things have worn down.
Thx for all the good info. Before even embarking in a crucial research like gougers, it is always better to be prepared armed with the info about pitfalls of not even attempt certain things...eg like attempting to fool with sharpening the blade.
Now, I am getting some idea, how I should begin gouging. Better to get the equipment and tools that work and then go ahead to fill in the blanks and gain experience in simple gouging.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-10 14:35
I'll just take it in stride: keep enough gouged cane ready to last a while. My machine is too simple for wearing, but blade can break: can't buy one for this machine. If it does break, I'll probably try to buy gouged cane. If I can't find a good supplier, I'll buy a new machine. I'll decide which to buy by talking to the vendors on the phone.
Cheers!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-07-10 15:29
Hey Cooper,
I am very interested in the relationship of the curve to the reed opening as well as other attributes.
Can you supply some more information.
Thanks,
Mark
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