 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: IanH
Date: 2010-06-25 18:32
Please forgive a clarinettist posting an oboe query....
I have three, yes three Marigaux Strasser oboes that have come into my possession. As I restore old instruments I couldn't say no when they were offered to me. I've dated them back to 1977 approx. One is in absolute perfect condition and was probably never played as far as I can tell. The second one (consecutive serial numbers) is in good condition and the third has been played a fair bit. All I know so far is that they have two octave keys. I need to know as much as possible about them. My goal is to service #2 and 3 (I've already serviced #1). Any information, particularly on the meaning of two, three, semi automatic and automatic octave systems would be a start. Clarinet players don't HAVE octave keys!
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Author: plclemo
Date: 2010-06-25 19:03
We (clarinet players) certainly DO HAVE and octave key (only we call it a "REGISTER KEY"). At least I think so!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2010-06-25 19:11
plclemo wrote:
> We (clarinet players) certainly DO HAVE and octave key (only we
> call it a "REGISTER KEY"). At least I think so!
It ain't an "octave" key because it doesn't raise the note an octave - it raises it a twelfth - a "register" on a clarinet.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-25 20:28
There are three main types of 8ve key arrangement - simple, semi-automatic and fully automatic.
Simple 8ve keys are just that - a single 8ve key for the thumb and another for LH1. The lower or 1st (thumb) 8ve key is used from upper register E to G# and then has to be released as the upper or 2nd (LH1) 8ve key is opened from A to high C. Then the lower/1st 8ve is opened again for altissimo E upwards. You do have to make sure either one or the other is opened at any one time as both can't be opened together. The upper (2nd) 8ve key can be used for harmonic fingerings in the upper register (described in the next paragraph).
Semi-automatic 8ves are the most popular type - you can keep your thumb on the back (1st) 8ve key while opening the upper (2nd) 8ve key and the vents will switch over. It's called semi-auto as you still have to physically open the 2nd 8ve when going from upper register G-A - you have to move your wrist to open the upper 8ve vent as you lift LH3 without having to release yuor thumb from the 1st 8ve touch as would have to be done with simple 8ve keys. The upper (or 2nd) 8ve vent can be used for harmonic fingerings for A or Bb (and others) as it raises the low D and Eb up by a 12th to give a much rounder, softer tone quality to these notes so they can be used when playing pp instead of the usual short fingerings.
Fully automatic 8ves will work in a very similar way as the 8ve mechanism on saxophones works - you have the single touch for the left thumb and the switchover happens automatically when you raise and lower LH3 while the thumb is on the back 8ve touch. You can't use harmonic fingerings (eg. for upper A or Bb) with fully auto 8ves as the 8ve mechanism is linked to the main action keywork (to LH3), so the lower vent will be open while LH3 remains down (and it's the upper vent that needs to be opened for the harmonic fingerings). Fully auto 8ves are most popular in Germany and Eastern Europe and also by some players who've studied there. Some older fully autos had both 1st and 2nd 8ve touches fitted, but they both do exactly the same thing.
The 3rd 8ve is an extra touchpiece for the left thumb (usually overlaps the back 8ve key or runs down the side of it on instruments fitted with a thumbplate) and opens a full-size tonehole in between the lower 8ve vent and the C-D trill tonehole, but it only opens a tiny amount (the venting is governed by an adjusting screw just like the LH1 fingerplate) and helps the altissimo register notes from E upwards speak cleanly.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2010-06-25 20:42)
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Author: IanH
Date: 2010-06-25 21:16
And a clarinet player is supposed to understand all that? Phew! Very grateful, and with some fiddling with my oboes tomorrow I should be able to work out what system they use. Thanks Chris.
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Author: IanH
Date: 2010-06-25 21:22
So I presume my oboes are semi-automatic? Two thumb keys, one above the other? Interestingly enough my oboe colleague told me this wasn't popular, but she's German! I'd thought it would make it hard for me to pass on to a student, but I guess she's wrong. Thanks!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-25 22:16
If you've only got two thumb touches (and no 8ve key on the front for LH1 in a similar place where a clarinet's throat G# key would be located) and the upper one is overlapping with an adjusting screw either on the thouchpiece arm or on a small arm right by the key barrel, it'll be fully automatic - the lower touch is the 8ve key (only need the one main 8ve key for autos) and the upper one is the 3rd 8ve key.
If there are two thumb touches placed one above the other (and has the 2nd 8ve touch like a clarinet's throat G# key), the upper one being teardrop shaped and the lower one being oval and works the small pad cups in between the LH fingerplates, then it's a dual (conservatoire+thumbplate) or thumbplate system and will most likely have semi-auto 8ves.
Can you post photos of them so we can be sure exactly what system oboes you have?
You can check what the 8ve mechanisms and thumb kys look like here: http://www.howarth.uk.com/oboes.html
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: IanH
Date: 2010-06-26 07:25
Thanks you Chris. You've been a great help. they are definitely fully automatic. I tried to attach photos to the original message but the board stopped it for some reason. It now explains why my colleague said they were only popular in Germany and she didn't like them because she couldn't play harmonics. She's German but doesn't play automatic. It all falls into place now. It seems no one plays fully automatic here in SA so they'll be turned into lampstands probably.....
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-06-26 09:19
Automatics are still very popular in parts of Holland and in Asia (where everything is popular except thumbplate models although many key players in the regional symphony orchestras here use them), do, not, turn them in lamp stands! Hah! =D
Howard
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-06-26 09:21
In fact, since they don't seem to be professional instruments but should serve students well from the way you describe them, do drop me an e-mail if you happen to want to service them and sell them off cheaply. In Malaysia, a working oboe for the struggling student is really a blessing!
Howard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-26 09:49
Are they marked as 'Strasser' in large letters on the bell above or below the SML logo? What shape is the SML logo - is it like a ribbon or circular?
Strassers from the '70s and '80s were available with nearly as much keywork as the Marigaux 901 models (ie. thet were available as full Gillet conservatoire system), the more recent Strassers have far less keywork.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: IanH
Date: 2010-06-26 17:50
Hi Chris. It's getting interesting. The oboes are stamped MARIGAUX above the SML, (no Strasser) but the original cases are all stamped Strasser Marigaux. I did have correspondance with Marigaux. The serial numbers on their site start in 1977 with 8550 and it says these are the 901 models. I found this in their FAQ section. I gave Marigaux my serial numbers, which are just before and just after 8550 and they would only say they are 'likely' of the same year, that is 1977. The numbers are 8445, 8446 and 8783. Can I assume then that these were not student models but professional? I need as much info as possible for my future plans for them.
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Author: IanH
Date: 2010-06-26 17:58
Hi Chris. Can you contact me privately so I can send photos? My email address is on my profile. Thanks. Ian.
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Author: IanH
Date: 2010-06-26 18:05
Of course, if the oboes are not stamped 'Strasser' then they must be 901s. Am I correct? The 801 model according to the Marigaux site is their 'Strasser' model. I'm getting more and more curious as to what I have in my possession!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-26 22:00
Attachment: Oboe2.jpg (146k)
This is a Marigaux 910 which is the full German spec version of the 901 - definitely not student models!
I didn't realise they put the extension plate on the RH1 fingerplate on oboes from this era - my d'amore (from 1979) hasn't got it and most 901s didn't get it fitted as standard until either the late '80s or early '90s.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2010-06-27 09:15)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-26 22:02
Attachment: Oboe1.jpg (97k)
Attachment: Oboe3.jpg (114k)
On closer inspection this oboe has all the gadgets found on full German spec oboes except for the F resonance key (opens with the F key, not to be confused with the fork F vent) and are loaded up as follows:
Fully automatic 8ves
Spatula on Bb key for LH2 to keep the Bb key held closed for the high D-E trill
Conservatore 1-2-3 mechanism so closing any RH fingerplate will give Bb and C
Roller F key
Low B-C link so low B or Bb can be played with the LH pinky alone freeing up the RH pinky for slurs such as low D to B, B to D# or low Bb to Eb.
And they weigh a TON!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2010-06-27 22:03)
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2010-06-27 07:58
Hello Ian,
I have a Marigaux Strasser of about vintage 1975 - I think the serial number of mine is 6767, but I will check once I get home this evening.
Yours seem to be full professional models and if they are in good playing condition are worth a good deal on the second-hand market. The quality of wood of these older instruments is amazing - much finer-grained than can be obtained today.
If you intend to sell them you should probably work through a dealer in Germany, where the fully-automatic octave model is most popular.
My Strasser-Marigaux is not a German fully-automatic system like yours, but a dual thumbplate/conservatoire semi-automatic system and it doesn't have the low B-C connection or the F roller. However, the keywork looks identical in style to yours.
And Chris - it weighs less than my Loree c+3 with all the bells and whistles, though the difference is minor. I always thought that weight differences are more to do with the bore than the amount of keywork, no? Is the difference the 1-2-3 mechanism? that certainly adds complexity.
J.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-27 08:45
Mind you, I am comparing the weight against my kingwood Howarth, and these older Marigaux (and most blackwood oboes) are very bottom heavy balance-wise which makes them feel heavy. My teacher has an early '70s 901 and that is noticeably heavier than my kingwood S5.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2010-06-28 06:05
Hmm ..
M. Charette has been doing a fine job so far, keeping this BB lively, interesting and non-commercial. Perhaps your original post could be misinterpreted as "I am selling ....". That would definitely be off-limits here. We're all interested in oboes, reeds, music etc. but this is not the place for personal ads.
"Community" but not "Craig's List", if you get my drift.
J.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-28 12:16
I'm still wondering what the plural of Marigaux is.
Is it Marigauxes? We say it often enough (marry-goes), but I've never seen it written.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: IanH
Date: 2010-06-28 12:37
One presumes it's a French word, of course, and normally the x on the end would make it plural already, though that would be for words ending eau, however I can't find the word Marigau listed anywhere.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-28 13:09
Shame we can bung on an 'S' to make plural all other makes (Lorees, Rigoutats, Howarths, Dupins, Moennigs, etc.), but names ending in X (apart from Fox which is Foxes) are said but not written down.
The thing is on this and related messageboards, any mention of selling instruments (present or future tense, intentional or in passing) is forbidden.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2010-06-28 14:49)
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Author: ceri
Date: 2010-06-28 19:06
Marigau doesn't exist as a French word.
There are other French words which have an x at the end of their singular form "houx" (holly) is one and it doesn't have a different plural form. You can say "un houx" ou "des houx." (A bit like sheep in English which can be singular or plural).
In French you don't hear the final "s" anyway so unless you have an article in front of it you don't know if the person is saying "rigoutat" ou "rigoutats."
Post Edited (2010-06-28 19:07)
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2010-07-06 23:55
hey, my first really good oboe was one of those, serial no 8960.
About what year were yours built?
GoodWinds
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Author: IanH
Date: 2010-07-07 15:49
Marigaux was not that helpful, and haven't replied to my second enquiry, but I believe around 1977. I have three, serial numbers 8445, 8446 and 8783. I thought the fully automatic octave keys system was only played in Germany?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-07 17:12
Attachment: marigaux930damore 001.JPG (692k)
Attachment: marigaux930damore 002.JPG (712k)
My Marigaux d'amore's serial number is 103xx and the case lid cushion instead of having the Marigaux address has the names:
W. Lohff - U. Henze
P. Herren
DUSSELDORF
So I can only assume it was a special order. The keywork is all hand mounted with all key pieces individually soldered and no singular cast pad cups and arms are on this as can be found on Marigaux oboes. A very labour intensively made instrument.
Oops! It's a 912, not a 930.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2010-07-07 17:20)
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2010-07-07 21:07
Ian,
I'm pretty sure my dad purchased my Strasser-Marigaux in 1975 (I'll ask him if he remembers what year it was). We purchased it from Forsyth's in Manchester.
The serial number on my instrument is 8787, and not 6767 as stated earlier - very close to that of your newest instrument. You can see the description of mine above. It's a sweet horn.
Assuming that their numbering scheme was more-or-less sequential your instruments were probably made earlier than mine, more than 35 years ago.
J.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2010-07-08 00:15
I bought the instrument in the US, on the West Coast, around 1975 or 1976, and it had a KING stamp on it as well. So most likely not one of your collection! But it was a very nice oboe.
GoodWinds
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-08 09:33
I've seen a few King Marigaux oboes listed on eBay that I've regretted not bidding for - they were all older 901 spec.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2010-07-10 07:32
my "King" Marigaux (8960) was a beautiful instrument. I did think it odd that such a nice oboe would have the stamp of a 'band instrument' company. I believe that tie was severed, because nobody considering a modern Marigaux mentions that stamp.
GoodWinds
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-10 10:00
Just shows the powers of snobbery there! What's in a name?
My teacher's Marigaux is stamped 'Lucerne Artist' but is exactly like a 901 from 1974.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2010-07-10 22:49
Never judge an oboe by its stamp. (I guess the same goes for people: never judge them by their label. The proof is in the playing...)
GoodWinds
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-19 11:59
Here's a clip of the Berlin Phil with Jonathan Kelly playing a dual system Marigaux 901 (from 1:25 onwards): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KOZzoSXrts
As he's from Petersfield, he would have started out playing on a thumbplate system as is the norm in the UK - but a thumbplate can be fitted to any conservatoire system instrument so thumbplate fingerings for Bb and C can still be used.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2010-07-19 12:06)
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Author: IanH
Date: 2010-07-19 13:27
If it sounds like I'm name dropping, then I probably am. Simon studied at the Royal Academy of Music same time as me. Accompanied me for my third year exam. We were good friends back then. Not sure how I ended up in Durban and he in Berlin..... (sigh)
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