 The Oboe BBoard
|
Author: Chris J
Date: 2010-06-06 10:37
I have just finished overhauling an old German oboe. I had hoped to have had it professionally done but drew a blank finding someone to do it - but that is another story altogether. I have done saxes and clarinets before.
It is fully automatic, a stencil, possibly a 1940s Moennig (as thought by the Moennig company from photos, another story)
I have been playing for 3 months, and playing on a pre Loree Cabart on 47mm cork staple with no problem.
Play testing the German oboe with the same reed, the whole range from the top is no problem. There is an occasional burble at G (second line up) that is easily controlled. The burble really kicks in at D going down. It can be made to stop by really easing off the tension on the reed. I have one reed where the burble is much less evident, and more easily stabilised
I have checked and checked again and find no leaks. What do I look for next?
Do I need to recheck leaks - if so, any likely candidates?
Do I need to change venting of the tone holes?
Is the staple too long - might that cause the burble?
The staple receiver on the Cabart is 18.2mm and the receiver of the burbling German oboe is 17.9mm
What reed should be used for a 1940s Moennig anyway?
I am 2 weeks away from my next lesson, so any information would be gratefully received.
Chris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-06 11:03
You may have to find German staples to use with this one, or the reed could be closed up too much, or the top joint bore could be on the large side.
Bubbling and gurgling will happen on any oboe with a dodgy bore regardless if the pads are all seating well or if the venting is too open/closed - the problem is usually in the top joint bore which may have been over reamed or over polished, or worn out over time through using an abrasive mop making it wide enough to cause this problem.
I struggled with my first oboe which was a B&H Regent. This oboe was so unstable below E it was untrue. I did learn to control it to some degree with the choice of reeds, but it was never a good instrument. Similarly with my first alto sax, an East German B&S one which was tough going playing below low D without gurgling.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris J
Date: 2010-06-06 11:32
Hi Chris
Many thanks for such a swift reply. A quick update:
When I started I bought some really cheap soft student reeds - nasty and cheap.
I just put one on and no burble at all. It is 68mm long from top to bottom. The reed I was using was 72mm from top to bottom.
I have been using reeds made by Marjorie of:
http://www.billerbeckoboereeds.co.uk
What should I ask for when buying some new reeds locally? Do I need to vary the strength, length, shape?
I am ignorant in these matters!
Chris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: plclemo
Date: 2010-06-06 11:48
I don't KNOW the answers to your questions, BUT I'm happy to meet another NEWBIE! I have been taking lessons for less than 2 months and am getting my new oboe soon. Right now I am renting one from our local music store. I am LEARNING A LOT HERE! I have NO PROBLEMS with playing the oboe, except for remembering the fingerings. I am a LONG-TIME clarinetist and a former bassoonist. The fingerings are similar, but NOT THE SAME! CONFUSING ME!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-06 13:14
The most popular scrape is a U scrape here in the UK, though do try a long W scrape. Try a slightly harder reed, but no harder than a medium soft at the moment.
Having a wire on the reed will also help to keep the aperture as open or closed as you want it to be, but being too closed up will make it prone to gurgling.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Alphons
Date: 2010-06-06 13:26
You are probably playing way out of the ground tuning of the instrument wich can be 445Hz,if you are trying to play 440Hz its possible that this phenomena occurs.
Cut down one staple to 42 mm and then try again.
Greetings Mark
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-06 13:37
Check the joint lengths and tonehole placements against your Cabart - if they're pretty much the same, then it should be the same pitch as your Cabart which should be built to 440Hz.
If everything is significantly shorter or the toneholes are much closer together, it'll probably be built to 444-445Hz.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris J
Date: 2010-06-06 14:08
Currently using wired U scrape Medium/Medium reeds with no problem on the Cabart.
I can try other reeds. Which parameters should I choose from the list below?
Chimney diameter (small or medium)
Staple length (46/47)
Scrape (U/W)
Wire (yes/no)
Cane shape (narrow/original)
Finished reed length (71/72/73)
Strength (H/M/MH/MS/S)
I am guessing
medium chimney, 46mm, wired, original, 71mm, MS - ?
Chris
By the way, Alphons, thanks for your thoughts. All the none burbling notes are slightly flat with the reed I have, making me think it needs to be shorter. I did cut the bottom 2mm off one of my reeds to see if it helped - it did a bit but not as much as the 68mm cheap reed. I am not sure what you mean by cutting the staple down to 42mm. Currently the bottom of the cork to the top of the cork is 30mm. From the top of the cork to the top of the reed is 42mm. Sorry to be so vague. I am very at home with single reeds, but 2 at once is a new venture to me...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris J
Date: 2010-06-06 14:17
And a follow-up from your first reply, Chris P
If the bore was to blame, would the problem have gone away or remained with the 68mm reed?
i.e. does the fact that the 68mm reed takes the problem away mean it is just down to choosing the right reed?
Chris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris J
Date: 2010-06-06 14:43
As for the comparison of joint lengths and tone hole placements -
They seem to be pretty much the same, but the lower 3 tone holes are slightly higher on the German oboe.
As you can tell, the picture below shows the Cabart on the right and the German oboe on the left.
Chris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris J
Date: 2010-06-06 15:03
So with looking around more at what reeds are available - in the K. Ge web site:
They sell an American reed that is 69 or 70 mm long - it is not wired.
How come they don't play sharp if they are shorter?
As Moennig tells me, if my instrument is made by them, it was a stencil made specifically for export to the American market.
As the 68mm reed worked, do I need an American style reed?
Why is this so complicated?
Thanks to all who have followed and contributed so far. In Australia it is time for me to wind down for the night. I will look forward to reading any replies in a few hours time!
Chris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cjwright
Date: 2010-06-06 15:14
If you feel comfortable enough:
1. Check the bore by holding the reed well to the light. Look straight down the bore from the tenon and make sure the bore is still straight and not warped (i.e. curved to one direction or another)
2. Hold the side C bridge down, put a rubber stopper in the bottom tenon and check the suction. If the suction is perfect, then it probably is the bore.
3. Check and make sure there is a small amount of space in between the D trill bridge and the bottom joint D trill key, so that its not being held open.
4. If it doesn't seal, take off all all of the keys, and put small rubber stoppers in every tonehole while plugging the octave keys with your fingers. Then start adding pads/keys back one at a time until you've identified which pad is failing.
That's my best suggestion.
Coop
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris J
Date: 2010-06-06 23:32
Coop
Thanks for the suggestions.
On overhauling the instrument I checked all these things. The bore is straight. The D trill bridge does not hold open the trill key. The suction holds.
The fact that a shorter reed plays with ease suggests to me now that it is a reed / bore mismatch.
I have contacted the person who has made me reeds and they have replied
"...German oboes are designed for their school of playing and pitch at A442 and sometimes higher. The model you have is also old (1940) - things have moved on greatly to our advantage.
The bore tends to be wider than the French. Therefore, the reeds need to be on different staples to connect with the bore. The German oboe staples are usually shorter than the usual standard length and the complete reed is also shorter too.
I have a friend who plays on an old Puchner ... Recently, I have made reeds for her using d10 geurcio staples, but I am not happy in making a product I cannot test properly here as I play on a standard modern oboe & use a universal standard staple/cane, etc."
I will ask her to make me 3 reeds, in the knowledge of her concerns about testing.
Is there anywhere that I can get other reeds to try? As I mentioned above I have seen "American" reeds advertised at 69/70mm. Would they have staple characteristics that would make it wrong for my bore?
Chris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cjwright
Date: 2010-06-09 16:57
On older Lorees these notes are particularly troublesome. Try different bells, as this area can really be effected by the shape in the bell. Also, try different arrangements of tape in the bell.
I've had 5 or 6 instruments reamed out by David Weber, and his reamer hits the bell and this area, and can really clear up these notes as well. It's a pricey process ($450), but it's well-worth it.
Cooper
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-06-09 17:07
No, American style reeds are quite special and take a lot of experience getting right. Choose the American scrape if you feel that it is right for your lungs, mouth and any/all physical considerations you can think of... in other words, choose this scrape if you find it easier to play, not (just) for the instrument.
Many will disagree with me, but I consider that anything you can get with the American scrape, you can achieve by some variety of the European scrape.
The short American reeds do not play higher for the same reason that a European reed cut short might not: the final look is not the only thing in play! The quality of the cane, the proportions between cane length, staple length and a plethora of scraping issues. This is why French reeds can be 74mm and still play too high!
I'm sorry this news is not more encouraging, but that's why oboists make their own reeds when they get serious about it. There are just too many variables and nothing can substitute for lots of experience.
If you want to buy reeds, I'm afraid there's no other way then to try makers until you find the one best suited to you. Best it be someone you can see in person.
Chris J wrote:
> They sell an American reed that is 69 or 70 mm long - it is not
> wired.
>
> How come they don't play sharp if they are shorter?
>
> As the 68mm reed worked, do I need an American style reed?
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris J
Date: 2010-06-10 05:54
Robin
Thanks for all that info. It is fascinating coming from single reeds, where the mouthpiece and reed combination will tune the instrument by being moved.
I have now spent more time with the German instrument and the reeds I have for the early Cabart.
Just as an experiment I cut a reed down by 3mm from the bottom and as you say, had very little impact on the tuning of the instrument. The burble was reduced, but some notes were thin.
If there is a leak in a sax, then a motorboat burble can happen, but that does not come from the reed as such when playing.
With this German instrument, the burble is felt right at the reed tip and a slight loosening off of lip pressure can stop it, but too loose for good articulation.
In fact, of the 8 working reeds I have, 2 seem much better than the others at their standard length.
I have some German reeds with W scrape on order, and see if they make matters better.
Chris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jhoyla
Date: 2010-06-10 06:19
Chris, hello,
1. Have you done a suction/vacuum test on both the top joint and the middle joint?
You say there are no leaks; nevertheless, the most common cause of burbling in the low notes IS a leaky instrument. Test especially the closing of the tiny pad between LH index and middle fingers when RH 1 is down, though this is less likely with a ring-system.
Perhaps there are leaks across the joint? Is there some space between the RH D trill key connection and its receiver? You are not touching this key accidentally when playing the low notes, are you?
Also, if the F#/G# connection across the joints (Closes the G# tone-hole when you press RH Index finger) is over adjusted, both sections of the instrument may seal perfectly, but the F# key (G tone hole) may not seal when the instrument is assembled. Twist the joint to disconnect all the connections and try the low notes again.
Are you sure there are no leaks around the tenon joint? These can be either due to the cork being very worn, or even a leak between the wood and the socket of the middle joint.
2. You do not mention whether the reed is tight in the reed-well. Is it too loose? Some reed-wells can be very wide. You can purchase staples that use O-rings to seal, which may resolve this problem.
3. Are you checking the tuning of the instrument with a tuner?
The reason I ask is that your comparison photos show a difference in length between the two instruments of about 5 mm, though it is hard to tell. If the oboe is very sharp compared to modern instruments it may be made to play perfectly, but be pretty useless for anything other than unaccompanied solo work.
J.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris J
Date: 2010-06-10 08:01
Thanks for those thoughts
Would a leak caused burble so easily be resolved by a subtle change in lip pressure or a different reed?
To address your helpful post:
The auxillary pads in the UJ both seal well at rest, when UJ rings are depressed and when the RH1 goes down (the LH2 ring holds it down)
The joint corks are recent and firm, there are no cracks on the wood, the tenon sockets are metal lined
I have 1mm free play at the D trill bridge to make sure I am not activating the key by mistake by hitting the lever accidentally
I have played with the F#/G# adjustment screw backed off with no change. Now adjusted back so that there is light resistance on cigarette paper feeler under the adjustment screw on the G# key with F# depressed and sealing
Staple cork in the reed well seems secure. I will put a bit of PTFE tape on it tonight to see if that makes a difference.
I have played with a tuner, and all seems well in tune, actually better than the old Cabart that needed a small crescent in the G tone hole to take it down a tad.
But as I asked at the beginning of this post - can a leak be reed sensitive? With a clarinet or sax, a leak is a leak and a different reed does not make the problem the leaks make go away. Is this not the same with the oboe?
I am still favouring a reed / instrument mismatch (hopefully) with an over-enthusiastic use of an abrasive pullthrough affecting the bore being a more disappointing cause.
My teacher will get a look at it next week - so I can see what her opinion is.
Chris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-06-10 09:41
Your story is very informative.
I forgot that you're relatively new to the oboe world. If you remember your early sax days, notes under G would burble even with a perfect instrument and reed/mouthpiece combination. The trick was to practice, practice and practice.
The double reed world is just the same! I remember learning the clarinet after having played the oboe for 10 years..... ouch. The clarinet was not difficult, but the air "back pressure" was so different that playing it was the strangest thing for me and quite an adaptation. I was told that saxophone players divide themselves in Eb and Bb speciallists (play alto and baritone OR soprano and tenor) for the same reason. I suppose German vs. French oboes require the same specialisation.
Best of luck!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jhoyla
Date: 2010-06-10 10:44
Regarding your question: "can a leak be reed sensitive?"
Absolutely, yes.
A solid, free-blowing reed will be less sensitive to leaks than a delicate and slightly closed reed. Everything is connected.
J.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris J
Date: 2010-06-10 14:00
That's helpful. Thanks.
I have a friendly tech locally who has a gadget that quantitatively pressure tests instruments. I will ask if he can help locate a leak. It will keep me busy while I wait for different reeds to arrive.
Interestingly, the reeds that consistently cure the burble are very cheap and even nastier soft student ones I bought from Ebay in America which are only 68mm long. Awful tone, but no burble, and far from solid and free-blowing!
Chris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-10 14:33
Even the most airtight instrument can gurgle due to a wonky bore. Cheap soprano saxes of old are notorious for this (think older B&S and Amati sopranos), so more often than not gurgling isn't caused by leaks - leaks make the low notes difficult to speak and they'll more likely pack up rather than become unstable.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-06-11 09:46
Hi Cooper,
Thanks for your input. You are actually very encouraging because my Lorée is out to be revoiced by someone I can definitely trust to do a good job.
Being 25 years old and never even a pad changed, "the whole nine yards" are being done. But I personally have found no difference in its playing between now and way back when I was capable of playing anywhere between A=435 and A=450. In fact, and I think, because of my new engineering methodology experimentation on reeds, it plays with better tuning and stability now than before.
This makes me wonder why Lorée has not changed to fix those notes? Unless there is something about the climate in Europe (I think they are hot in Japan too)? From Québec to Montréal to Ottawa (I imagine the same for the North-Eastern States), Lorée has always had a reputation for those unstable notes.
Ah well, 25 years together means I'm keeping it!
Cheers and thanks!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
![[E5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/e5.gif)
, ![[F#5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/gb5.gif)
and ![[G5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/g5.gif)
)?