 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-02-18 10:46
Having read some information on regards to changing octave box inserts, i began to ponder of its effects on the oboe. What are dimensions available and why do some oboes need it more than others when it is of the same make or model? I have flat 1st and 2nd octaves and i am quite sure it is not my reeds, and it has been suggested to me by someone 'famous' that i do something with the octave boxes, which apparently will help. As i am not famous enough, it is quite unlikely that i will be able to say to Buffet, send me 5 or 6 of them and i will try all of them until i find the right one....so, if i were to request, where should i start and what should or look for? Or...am i totally going towards the wrong direction and the sagging is coming from somewhere else?
Regards,
Howard
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2010-02-18 11:54
Hello Howard, I think you have posted about this problem before.
Have you tried your reeds on a different oboe?
Have you let other oboists try your oboe to see if they experience the same problem?
And finally:
If the problem is definitely the instrument, and (as I recall) you purchased it new, you should get the manufacturer involved at this point BEFORE you try modifying the instrument yourself. It is still under warranty, and you are entitled to an instrument that plays in tune. You may mention (in your cover letter to Buffet) that an enormous number of experienced oboists and teachers have been following your problems with keen interest on an internationally well-known bulletin board, and are unlikely to recommend the greenline to any of their students in the near future ...
J.
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-02-18 13:08
Greetings J,
The problems that i have encountered in the past few months are definitely a sort of blessing, because i have learned more about reeds in this short span of time more than i have ever learned about reeds in years. I have also come to re-evaluate the way i play and the way the reeds should or should not function.
On a 2nd positive note, i got a reply on the phone call from my extremely reputable seller from Germany who gave me a few ideas to think about,
1) His customers had never had problems with the things i have come to faced, his recommendation is, the reed has to have Glotin type (gigantic) staples, BUT at 45mm, and it is crucial for the problems that i have, for some reason. (I have found out in the past few months that indeed the "bigger" the staple, in terms of the oval at the neck and the bottom of the staple, the higher the pitch and easier will be for the 2nd octave to 'sit', you must also know that in Asia we mostly follow the European trend of 442+- because of the variety of nationalities we have in our orchestras.)
*This all becomes common sense, where in the States the American style encourages an extremely relaxed way of playing and with French type bore instruments like Loree/Rigoutat/Buffet (Marigaux excepted) which in Europe is not very popular because of the sagging top registers. The way to compensate, or rather the ideal way of playing in the States then, is to use big staples to enable the scale to work. Whereas with German type bore instruments like Josef or Ludwig Frank, one requires smaller staples simply because they can only work that way.
2) He has contacted Buffet, and will certainly send a few types of octave inserts for me to try, if the reed suggestions (which includes shapes etc.) he gave me do not work at the end of the day. And indeed, some people do not like the feel of reeds made from the Glotin type staples and so if one objects to that way of playing, then you have to change the instrument. Makes a lot of sense to me.
So J.....i have indeed addressed the problem to the retailer, maybe not in such a serious tone, and the way he reacted was that a student's reaction to the oboe's mannerisms are not to be treated seriously as he has not encountered complains from professionals. You know of course that in every country and every way of playing there exists a certain dogma on how things should be done and that personality is not encouraged, worst still when you are a student.
In addition to that, most professional oboe players in this region that tried my oboe found it to be beautiful in every aspect and my reeds to have no big problems. (And i can tell you, the measurements of their reeds are way off what Mr. German retailer tells me is the norm, at least in Berlin, and they are mostly bought reeds from very reputable makers.) I am lucky as an Asian oboist today, because i do not belong in the generation where we did have so much information (from the internet for example) and when one star oboist from the region says this is the way to play, everyone follows the same formula and for the people who can't make it work, will power comes into place and so the setup becomes less of a problem (in the surface) and the player is all to be blamed. Today, we know that it is often not true and we live with so many different ways to create a beautiful sound. I have no obligation to follow any school of playing, because simply, it is afterall a western art and that there is no Malaysian way of oboe playing (there is no need and never a need for one). But of course, i respect all my teachers past and present, and i always try to show what i have learned in my playing. These teachers of course studied at a time where dogmas existed ('ed' is of course not true in every part of the world today) and so they all play with a certain kind of physical will power to overcome the mannerisms of their instruments. Listen for example Schellenberger's solo recordings, who could not escape an often sagging 2nd octave on his Loree Royale, probably because of his reeds that he refuses to change in style. Having said that, some of the best players in the world are like that, and i am deeply humbled. Perhaps i need to complain and try this and that so much because i am less talented and much less physically capable...or...lazy?
One Dutch oboe teacher of mine who used to teach me, and continues to inspire me nowadays left me with something to think about a few weeks ago. He said that there is something to be said about forcing students to play everything the same, following the tradition, e.g. same instruments, same kind of reeds, same kind of embouchure etc. The logic behind it is that when something is wrong in the playing, one can with experience instantly detect where the problem lies and it can be fixed to suit the student. The end result is the same but one achieves it with different means. I study in an environment where this is the complete opposite, so one is forced to search from nothing, to gain something, and sometimes one goes the wrong way...and you turn around...bla bla...
So, i cut shorter the Glotin staples and i try again tomorrow, endless experimentation! More good cane to throw away? I hope not!
Howard
Post Edited (2010-02-18 13:18)
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-02-18 13:51
Howard,
Firstly, let me address your generalizations about the upper register of the Marigaux oboe:
"Marigaux ..... which in Europe is not very popular because of the sagging top registers."
I have not experienced this problem with my Marigaux 901. What I have noticed is the Oboe is pitched a few cents lower at 440.
I have easily adjusted to this by using a 45 mm staple and supporting the air stream in that register with more support and a firm embouchure. My old Loree was a few cents sharp and I would play with a more relaxed and open embouchure.
The changing of octave vents - which I think you are referring to - can affect the pitch somewhat. I had an Octave vent replaced on my old Loree to bring down the pitch - somewhat. However, you can also address pitch by the height of the key pads too.
I also feel that your problems lie in the reeds. Maybe your shape is to wide? Or maybe your scrape needs to be adjusted? Or maybe the reeds need to be shorter? Or less wood needs to be removed from the back of the reed.? Or the blend from the tip to the heart is not right? Or maybe the reeds are to open? Maybe you need to change the diameter of the tube cane? You need to experiment to find out what works best. My reeds for the Marigaux are made slightly differently than the ones for the Loree. (And thank goodness for that - since the Marigaux reeds are easier to make!)
It seems you need a focal or reference point in order to experiment with your reeds. Set up a chart - and vary different aspects of the reed making process and substitute one variable at a time while holding the others constant.
Good Luck
Mark
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-02-18 14:31
Hello Mark,
Notice that i mentioned Marigaux excepted, because in fact Marigaux oboes seem to not need this kind of special treatment so much, and my reeds with Chiarugi no. 2 staples (narrower staples) works well with them. (I have 2 M2s and 2 2001s in my oboe studio)
I use 11mm diameter tube cane, so i have no problems with reeds being too open, sometimes even too closed. I don't use a wire and i do not overlap. I gouge 57-60 depending on cane quality and my gouging machine has a side ratio of .18. I have used shapes as wide as -2 and as narrow as -1. I have tried scrapes as short as 8mm to scrapes as long as, well, as long as can be. I have tried many many good reed makers for short scrape reeds. I even tried American style reeds! As you can imagine the sound concept is simply way too far away from how i want to play, but the reeds absolutely work (courtesy of Cooper Wright).
Interesting that you use a 45mm staple. This itself approves of what i mentioned in my post about the seller's recommendations. Let's see what happens!
Regards,
Howard
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2010-02-18 14:51
Howard hello,
Thanks for your post! I keep forgetting the cultural differences, and I have a lot of experience working in the East. Your English is so good I entirely forgot that you were based in Malaysia. I apologize for my brusque tone - no offense was intended, and I hope none taken? Buffet are a very reputable company, and the greenline is their top-of-the-line instrument for good reason.
If I may just summarize your situation as I see it:
* You play on a new, unmodified Buffet Greenline
* You use Glotin 47mm staples (I think)
* You use an American scrape, more or less (anyhow, a "long" scrape)
* You have a relaxed embouchure
* Tuning standards in your country are A=442
Am I right so far?
If this is correct, it may be that there is nothing wrong with any of the above "components". They just don't work well together.
I would also recommend trying shorter staples as a first step.
In addition you may want to try the following:
* Try and get hold of some harder cane. Soft cane can sag at the top
* Try a narrower shape.
[for both of these I would recommend going to a cane dealer who accurately measures hardness and can provide many shapes - one such is Nick Deutch, but there are many]
* Tune your local ensemble to 441 :-) Believe me, most of them won't notice the difference!
Changing parts of the instrument (such as the octave inserts) should be a second-to-last resort. The last resort is traveling to Buffet with your instrument and working on the tuning with them, or replacing your instrument with a German instrument tuned to 442+. This should not be necessary since Albrecht Meyer plays on a greenline.
I hope this helps. Please keep us informed!
J.
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-02-18 16:02
Hello J,
Of course i am not offended! I am so glad that i receive response so quickly and that there are people interested in helping me reach my goals. Isn't it amazing that so much information can travel around so quickly.
Anyways, i...
-play on a new, unmodified Buffet Greenline
-have attempted using Glotin 47mm staples, resulting in flat flat flat
-not taught to use American scrape, tried just for the sake of experimentation on different types of reeds. I am a full time short scrape player.
-since all the students in my studio play my reeds sharp, i definitely have a relaxed embouchure, not overly, to be sure, because i have had good oboe players try my reeds and say nothing bad about them in terms of pitch (not on the buffet of course)
-Tuning standards in your country are A=442, yupe.
Good suggestions J. I suspect that in the past i make reeds that are too flat, bite them up to pitch, and fail to bite up the upper register in combination with staples (Chiarugi 2, Klopfer D12 etc) that don't help in the 2nd octave. I tried shortening the above staples but that didnt help the upper register much. I know the Glotin has a big internal volume and apparently brings up the 2nd octave because of the shape of the neck so perhaps a short Glotin...makes sense?
Follow up question, do you think that, with your way of making reeds, that as long as the internal volume stays the same, theoratically whatever shape you use the reed will react the same? I don't overlap of course so my reeds have much bigger internal volumes compared to American scraped reeds, but these ideas should apply...For example if i use 47mm Glotin staple with an XN shape and assuming that it produces a volume of X, and i use a 45mm Glotin staple with a -2 shape and let us assume that it too produces a volume of X, would the reed play or react basically the same assuming all other variables are unchanged?
Thanks for your kind words in the beginning of your post J. You know Albrecht doesn't play on Buffet oboes anymore, well, to be sure he endorses Ludwig Frank oboes...but most people thinks that he sounds less good now...at least on this clip he sounds less good http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtMqtfIgnxk, in my honest opinion. Still amazing playing of course, but...notice the straight bell d'amore, amazing!
When there is a will, there is a way! There must be!
Howard
p.s. Today i played through the Albinoni d minor concerto in a lesson with a pianist, made it to the last page, and almost forgot where my lips were after that. Apparently, i sounded good. It was a reed from a reputable maker in the UK. Yes, i still had to bite and at the end i over compensated and started to play sharp...
Post Edited (2010-02-18 16:05)
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2010-02-18 20:37
Hello Howard,
There are many things that govern pitch, and the internal volume of the actual reed is only one of them. The hardness of the cane is a factor, as is the width of the reed (Evelyn Rothwell recommended "narrowing the tip" in her book, if you needed to bring up the pitch. Her book describes a modified American long scrape).
Another factor is the length of the extreme tip, relative to the rest of the reed.
In order to encourage vibration to form, the extreme edge of the reed must be thinner than paper, with the corners thinner than the sides. For short scrape reeds, you would generally gouge the cane thinner at the sides than the middle, more than for American reeds (a larger diameter blade than bed does this).
So, if you use a narrower shape and cane gouged thinner at the edges; a shorter staple, and an overall shorter extreme tip, you should be able to bring the pitch up with no trouble at all.
Best regards,
J.
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Author: hautbois
Date: 2010-02-19 12:17
Howard,
This is an interesting string. I have not played short scrape reeds. However, in my experience having an overlap has considerably helped in permitting a relaxed embouchure in the upper range. Though I changed to Marigaux for the last few years of my career, I played on Loree instruments for most of my earlier years and recognize the problem you describe. Possibly you could experiment with creating an overlap after the blades are tied, instead of performing the tie with an overlap. And you could compensate for any resulting and problematic narrowness in the internal volume of the reed by using one of the wider shapes you have experimented with. The overlap adds considerable stability if lip pressure is minimal.
Elizabeth
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-02-19 12:29
Hello Elizabeth,
With an overlap, for some strange reason that i cannot explain, the lower register refuses to speak with a short scrape. If i tie and make sure that it doesn't overlap, it is almost impossible to make it overlap afterwards. In the past i have had no problems with overlapping reeds working with short scrape, but only when the cane is absolutely perfect....
As advised, i bought 45mm glotin copies...i tried filing shorter 47mm staples i had, but the clamp/vile i had basically deformed the shape of the staple so much that it was not possible to have it perfectly in the mandrel anymore, making the results very doubtful. I achieved a very dark sound with the big shape and the big staple for some reason gave a more stable high register, but intonation is strange in certain areas and that is certainly because of the deformation that exists in my own modification work. Hope the professionally shortened 45mm staples will prove to be a final solution if not stable formula.
Regards,
Howard
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2010-02-19 20:16
Hi there,
There's a few differences that I think need to be noted.
Short scraped reeds have very stable high F to As because if the extra cane in the back. American scraped reeds scrape windows to relax the opening in the back/throat area and to gain depth and darkness in the tone. Short scraped reedsuse a gouge that has thinner sides so their openings aren't gigantic. (If someone tried to scrape an American scrape on a Short scrape gouge the top would be too saggy.) Since short scraped reeds don't get depth from windows. They generally use wider shaped to get fullness and cover with the embouchure more.
Tuning differences between an oboe for an American scrape player vs a short scrape player are quite different. Besides the middle Cs which are totally different, the high A to C is tuned much higher which offsets the wider shape as well. This is generally done with undercutting. I question whether your instrument was tuned with an. With a European or an American in mind.
Octave vents are a very tricky. Obviously they need to be open enough to play the high notes be if they are too open they won't play anything high. If you get it too open then you can fill the hole with sauder and redrill the correct size but know that BIGGER does not necessarily mean BETTER and there is a cap as to how big you can go. If the problem is as serious as you say it is, I would assume that octave vents wouldn't be enough.
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Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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