 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-02-28 14:06
There was an interesting discussion (about 1 page down) entitled 'Just pitch singing' started by Hiroshi. This took us into all sorts of technical areas, mean tone, just intonation, equal temperament, Pythagoras, mathematics, Vallotti, even bagpipes!
This is all fascinating, but useful only to piano tuners, harpsichord makers, organ restorers etc. I want to suggest a trick to show how it all affects US in ordinary, musical situations as clarinettists.
Whenever 2 notes are played together you can also hear the note that is the combination of their 2 frequencies and the note that is the difference between the 2 frequencies, the difference tone, and this one shows us clearly how important tuning systems are.
Get together with a friend in a quiet room, sitting quite close, facing each other. If you play a high B and the E below together (a 5th) you'll be able to hear the E one octave below. If the person playing the high B makes it sharper you'll hear the difference tone go sharper and if you flatten the B the difference tone goes flatter. It's a more surprising effect if you change the pitch of the lower note. As you sharpen it the DT goes flatter (less difference) and so on.
Now try a major third, The same high B and the G below. You should hear the G 2 octaves below (Clar. bottom G) but since the instrument is made in equal temperament it probably sounds G sharp or higher. Flatten the B 'til the DT low G is in tune with the played G and that is a true major 3rd. You may be surprised how different the true note is from the equal temp. one. a major 3rd is wildly too big on a piano.
Minor 3rd. Play the same high B with the G sharp below. You should hear bottom E, but this time it will probably sound too flat. Minor 3rds are too small in equal temperament.
Now these effects are not just theory, they are there for all to hear. If you were playing a clarinet duet, just as that or as part of an orchestra or band piece, those intervals only sound in tune if you make those adjustments. It's worth experimenting to find out what sounds right and practising ways to be flexible in your intonation.
Sorry for such a long posting;- Have fun
jez
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Author: William
Date: 2002-02-28 15:15
That is why pianos are hopelessly out of tune and that orchestral tuning is a constant process of listening and adjustment. "Good tuning" is really good "co-operation." No single player is always right--not even the "snooty" concertmaster violinist or the oboist who gives "the pitch" for all to follow. Interesting posting--Thanks. Good Clarineting!!!!!!!!
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-02-28 21:29
I'm all my professional playing life I've never encountered a snooty concertmaster - maybe the Australian ones are just a little more humble? In fact, I think it's a damned hard job - next time you listen to Strauss' Ein Heldenleben tune in to the violin solo about a 3rd of the way into the piece - it's shockingly difficult.
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Author: Jerry McD
Date: 2002-02-28 22:00
Hello all,
Besides being a slightly better than mediocre clarinet player, I also tune pianos. Needless to say I find these types of discussions very interesting. I have to admit that I haven't been able to wade throught the last thread that was mentioned, but let me elaborate on the way pianos are tuned, because Jez is exactly right regarding the spread of intervals as they are tuned on the piano.
As a single note instrument (which instrument doesn't matter) we have the luxery of being able to tune each note individually and every interval played with someone else. Needless to say this is not possible with a piano. This is where the "even tempered" scale comes in, as opposed to the "equal tempered" scale. Let me give you the example of the major thirds mentioned above. On the piano you have middle C surrounded by the F's a 4th above and 5th below. This is where the piano tuner begins. You first tune the C to a tuning fork, and then tune the F's to the C and if it is done right you have a perfect octave F's. Now......a major third above the F is A, if you tune this interval in the "equal" system i.e. a shorter interval and then do the same with the A to C#, and then the C# to the upper F....it doesn't work. You are nowhere near an octave. Adding to this problem is the 8 octave spread of the piano and you can see how the equal temperament system evolved. It is not perfect by any means and over the course of history the other instruments were designed to fit type of tuning system. I hope this sheds a little light and Jez did a very good job of providing a real life example of how this comes into play. I would add that playing in small chamber groups (sans piano) how you tune as a group can be very different than how you would tune in a large ensemble.
Sorry this rambled so much
Happy clarineting!
Jerry McD.
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Author: Rene
Date: 2002-03-01 07:58
Interesting. I have written a software called Euler for doing numerical stuff. But you can also use it as a wave generator. Some of you might be interested. You can reach it via http://www.rene-grothmann.de. Just click the Euler link. Install and load the "temperament" notebook.
With this software, I tried generating quints (pure, equal, off pitch) and added the lower octave. If the quint is too much off, you will have a disturbin "Schwebung" in the lower octave. Just try yourself.
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Author: Roger -- the other one
Date: 2002-03-01 20:35
Jerry --- you can ramble as much as you like --- I found your post most interesting
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