 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-12-28 00:50
Let me make an analogy.
It may very well turn out to be a bad one. That's completely fine; just indicate how and where such inadequacies exist.
If I were to take a hammer to the end of a piece of wood and desire it to vibrate as much as possible (and maybe that is not what we seek of a reed), you can bet that I'd clamp the other end of the piece of wood into my woodworking vice as tightly as I could.
And I think most of us would intuitively agree if not also be able to explain why. We want that hammer's energy, as it hits the free end of the wood, to not be transferred into the non vibrating portion of the wood and lost there. We want the non-vibrating end stable so the energy transferred from the hammer (or in the case of clarinet playing, our lungs) to remain at the tip.
This said, why isn't the best ligature one that clamps the reed like my wife does me during the scary parts of movies?
Does the analogy break down or do we NOT seek maximum vibratory properties of the free end of the reed, or both/neither/something else?
Thanks.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-12-28 02:15
For me, the reed is more like a resonating body like a bell (or wind chime or such) if you hold the resonating body in your hand you lose most of the resonance. But if you suspend it from a small point and then strike it you get a much healthier ring.
You only need to experiment with using a very light (almost NON-clamping) securing of the reed with a ligature to hear the difference. It should be immediate.
...............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mojo
Date: 2021-12-28 17:22
The reed moves to create little puffs of air at the tip that vibrates the air column between the mouthpiece tip and the open hole in the clarinet body.
Players feel, or think they feel, all sorts of subtle variations with their equipment choices. Listeners often rarely hear a difference that the player feels. If experimentation is fun for you, enjoy it.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2021-12-28 18:43
Hi Paul. I agree. I doubt vibrational energy is necessarily lost into the portion that is relatively lightly clamped. It's probably not so simple. It wouldn't be surprising if there's been studies done on this that would be interesting to read.
That said, individual (cane) reeds sometimes seem to work better with different clamping forces or clamping positions.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-12-28 22:38
Hi Paul,
Is that why I find crossing the break legato so much easier with a string ligature? My string ligature is very "non-clamping" compared to everything else that I have tried. It is also a million miles better in my hands than any other ligatures that I have tried.
My double lip embouchure is also more "non-clamping" than my single lip, and also works much better for me in crossing the break legato.
Your bell analogy makes perfect sense to me. It also makes me think of touching crystal glasses together, as we did on Christmas day. That definitely requires minimal clamping to get the best ring.
If the clarinet reed is analogous to a crystal glass ringing then that will give me a whole new way to think about my playing.
Thanks!
Jen
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2021-12-28 23:33
It seems to me the bell analogy is imperfect. The reed has to impart its vibrations to the air column in the clarinet, not to the air outside. If the mouthpiece vibrates a bit, those vibrations affect the air column inside the instrument. And if that is true, tight clamping of reed to mouthpiece is desirable - unless of course the vibrating mouthpiece is deleterious to the sound because of its design or material.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Burt
Date: 2021-12-28 23:50
The vibrating reed loses energy by the vibrating object doing work against friction. Some of this friction is in the end half of the reed, and this is unavoidable. If the reed is held loosely by the ligature, motion is transmitted into the ligature and the energy is lost due to friction. The two extremes (preventing the base of the reed from moving, and leaving the base of the reed totally free) minimize the frictional loss. The second of these extremes is not possible on a clarinet reed (it is possible on a bell or on a wine glass), making the optimum choice to clamp the reed as tightly as possible without breaking anything.
The reed loses energy by transmitting some energy to the air within the mouth; this is unavoidable. The reed also loses energy to the bottom lip; a good strong embouchure (just like a good tight ligature) minimizes this loss.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-12-29 00:04
I had used string ligatures for quite a few years (battschnur) and always found technique smoother for it. I moved away from it when I finally sold the Oehler clarinets and decided to embrace the French School more completely. There is a more "solid" (meaty, or whatever) sound from more rigid ligatures (metal plated ones like the Vandoren Leather, Rovner Versa, or the Silverstein or the ZAC ligature) than with string that seems to damp the sound just a bit. Maybe the vibrations can be more easily transmitted through the mouthpiece as well with the more rigid materials.
It is indeed the air column that vibrates but the "initiator" has a HUGE affect on what that vibration sounds like. So if the reed/mouthpiece system is more vibrant the air column contains far more upper partials. Or so that seems through practical experience.
...............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: John Peacock
Date: 2021-12-29 02:27
Leaving aside initially the issue of whether the degree of clamping affects the sound, I would say it is 100% clear that the reed should be strongly clamped, on purely practical grounds. Or at least this is true for the large majority of us who play Buffet clarinets, and have to cope with the unfortunate fact that tuning barrels on Bb and A are incompatible. When making a rapid change of instrument, and swapping the mouthpiece only, you want to be really confident that the reed is not going to move: that will definitely change the sound far more than any effect of different amounts of clamping, and not in a direction that you're going to like. It's a risk you can't afford to take. This is one of the reasons I use a Rovner: because it offers a more secure grip than most metal ligatures.
Now, as to whether clamping will affect the sound. Probably one's view on this will be correlated with whether or not you think different kinds of ligatures have a big effect on the sound. There are strongly held views in both directions, so no point in just asserting my own opinion. But what is objectively true is that many mouthpieces, even from expensive and reputable makers, have tables that are not flat. In that case, hard clamping will distort the reed: this will change the separation between the reed and the open part of the lay, which is guaranteed to change the sound. So if you want to argue that clamping changes the sound, please first convince yourself that your mouthpiece is one of the minority with an accurately flat table.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-12-29 03:32
John Peacock wrote:
> But what is objectively
> true is that many mouthpieces, even from expensive and
> reputable makers, have tables that are not flat. In that case,
> hard clamping will distort the reed: this will change the
> separation between the reed and the open part of the lay, which
> is guaranteed to change the sound.
This, as I have understood it, is exactly the rationale for the French curve put into Henri (and Charles?) Chedeville's facings and others who have since emulated them.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2021-12-29 05:41
I played a Rovener ligature for years, just played with the best reeds I could find and won jobs and competitions.
I changed to screw down ligatures, clamping the reed so there was no loss of energy, made a sound I liked.
I changed to ligatures that allow the reed to vibrate more sympathetically throughout its length, made a sound I liked.
My experience has concurred with the OP, however I'd say that with the "clampy ligature" you also CAN lose a little of the ease of legato and even response through different registers.
So, for example, Altissimo D will respond a little different to high C or the D and octave lower with a "clampy ligature" but tend to be more uniform in response with a less clampy set-up. This might also be due to the relationship between the reed and the mouthpiece table- and the clamping is highlighting this.
This is an observation based on an unhealthy amount of time swapping ligatures, I could have just stuck with my original ligature solution (given to me on my 15th birthday!)
Results may vary.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-12-30 21:22
Thank you for all your responses.
As i read them I begin to wonder if the single best ligature might be one that..
because it maximizes its contact points with the reed, need be the least constricting.
Funny, two types of ligatures have been described by some as best: string and "thumb." The latter, like Karl has discussed in the past, has sometimes made me wish that I had "3 arms, " so one of my arm's thumb could hold the reed.
Conversely, I wonder if ligatures marketed with the least points of contact are really best.
Clearly, there are universal truths when discussing the physics of this subject, but wide levels of opinions as it regards what makes for the best approach from a subjective playing standpoint. Still more, I imagine that with changes to the player, instrument, mouthpiece, and current reed at play, there may be wrong answers, but clearly no one right one.
BTW, I'm not complete "gear head," slow to make changes in this area. My ligature, funny enough, is a Vandoren M/O not because of its vibratory properties, but rather its double threaded mechanism requiries the least amount of user rotations to effect clamping. I think a ligature's best friend is an etude book.
Post Edited (2021-12-30 21:25)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
