 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-07-30 06:06
Hi all.
From what I can glean from albeit rudimentary search here, reference to the above Silverstein Works refundable cane reed product seems sparse.
And if "ain't here on the bboard, and it regards clarinet opinion, it ain't gonna be nowhere."
Has anyone tried this product and its subscription service and have objective stories, good or bad, to tell of their experience?
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I'll tell you the part that troubles me.
On the second half of the order page:
https://www.silversteinworks.com/product/alta-clarinet-reeds/
the Terms and Conditions are clearly written in what appears to me, paradoxically enough, as ambiguous language.
To wit: "No cherry picking – Only non-usable, unplayable reeds will be eligible to be returned for replacement."
So--if I've got this right, you order X number of reeds. You try them all. If any of them can't.........wait for it........."play," whatever that means, then you send them back. Don't work on em...just send em back.
Hmm....I could make an entire box of Vandorens...."play" (said slowly or with air quotes for effect, seeking to play games with definitions of "play")...as if the definition of play involves making a sound that can be identified as a note in a particular key. I may have to turn my embouchure into a vice grip, or blow like I'm putting out a fire...but "play?"
I'd love to know what Silverstein's definition of play is in the context mincing no words. Explain it to me like I am a 3 year old. Slow and stupid.
And if it's truly what I describe, I think I'd fair better under this standard of play buying a box of Vanilla Ricos.
They do define cherry picking as not judging the reeds of a pool with each other, but to a consistent external standard if I may paraphrase. I'd be fine with that if that consistent external standard is high (not impossible: substantially less consistent than Legere's.)
Are we talking a Legere (synthetic) standard of consistency here? I can't possible see how.
And while I can't see this to be the case, does "useable" include the use of helping to fill the bag of recyclable organic waste that my municipality picks up?
I serious doubt, even at the price, that their reeds are being finished by hand specific to their playing hardness (not thickness).
And yet, I can't help but think they are marketing to the very best of clarinet players willing to shell out the bucks for something that's remarkable consistent, good and long lasting.
In fairness to Silverstein, if all they are saying is, "look, if you are returning 90% of our reeds we're sending you then you're not right for this program," I get it.
What happens to the reeds a purchaser deems unplayable and returns for replacements?
I don't mean to trash on Silverstein's reed product not having tried it. Nor are my standards harsh. If anything resembling consensus comes back with, "you know what, you get a dud now and then, but these reeds are really consistent and strong," I shall be highly impressed.
But when a for profit company writes of a desire to provide this service,"...not into a viable business model but into a grand statement," my skeptical meter, scaled from 1 - 10, goes to "11."
Post Edited (2017-07-30 06:27)
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Author: YT
Date: 2017-07-30 11:03
Hi Dave,
I have tried those reeds about three months ago and I had the same problem with their replacement program you have now. Their reeds are indeed really consistent at the beginning, but in my case, just a few days later they played like they were broken, it sounded as if they were much to soft. Normally I play Vandoren or sometimes Pilgerstorfer reeds, they are not as consistent, but they have at least three reeds in a pack that work for me, and that still work after two or three reeds.
I didn't try to get the Alta Reeds replaced, because I didn't understand what they meant with "play". Of course, all of them played, somehow. They produced a sound (a sound I didn't like after a few days)....
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-07-30 18:16
Tried the product, but not the subscription service or return policy. Those both seemed like a marketing thing with no real connection to the reality of buying reeds and getting them in shape to play on. The reeds I tried were very consistent, but stuffy on my setup. They looked a lot like Behns, but didn't play nearly as well for me. It seems likely that both they and Behns are made in Germany, maybe by the same company or maybe not, to specs from Silverstein and Behn respectively. When I visited S&S, Jochen S was under the same impression. Whatever truth there might be in that, for my taste, Behn hit the mark and Alta missed it by a bit. As for trying to convince someone's return department that the four reeds I sent back were "unplayable" rather than just not up to the standard I'd like, that doesn't seem like a plausible solution to anything.
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Author: RLSchwebel
Date: 2017-07-31 00:58
I wonder how they'd feel if there's, say two, duds in a box. You set the two to the side for safe keeping. You buy another box with say results, two duds. You set those aside. You continue this for a year. Plus you set the unusable reeds a couple of days old (that changed) aside. Is Silverstein going to be OK with sending twenty 'unplayables' back at one time?
I realize no one probably knows. But how far can their generous return policy be taken and is there a time limit? I can hear corporate saying, "Robert you bought only one box last month, you can't return 20 reeds."
~robt
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Author: Ed
Date: 2017-07-31 03:59
I recently saw this. The same phrase you mentioned "No cherry picking – Only non-usable, unplayable reeds will be eligible...." made me think along the same lines as you.
Does that mean they are all performance quality, or that they will all produce a basic sound?
I am not clear how to interpret this. Perhaps they will weigh in. These are very expensive reeds. (5 reeds for $25). For that price, I would hope they would be amazing. If I were to pay 25 for 10 reeds and get half the box the play it would be the same cost per reed.
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2017-07-31 08:18
I went back and forth with the company about this on Facebook a few months ago. I concluded it's just more marketing rather than something of substance based on my inability to get a clear answer from them despite pointed and persistent questions. They were very polite but of no actual help.
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-07-31 08:54
Hummm, sounds like I need to conduct a real world experiment. Next time I need reeds, I'll buy a box and see how it goes. I'll use the guarantee and report back.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: RLarm
Date: 2017-07-31 13:44
After reading the various comments I am extremely happy that I bought a bunch of Legere European Signature reeds. Yes, they do not all play exactly the same but out of 17 only two I would classify as duds. (Please don't ask me why I bought 17 Legeres.) The rest of them played well and there about five that are really excellent. I think I will stick with my Legeres. Many years ago I heard Stanley Hasty say something to the effect of selecting four blanks before a major performance (he made his own reeds) and start working on them. By the time the performance arrived he would have three outstanding reeds to choose from. However, as today's demand exceeds the supply, I wonder if reed makers would have the same rate of success. I think that is why a retailer told me that the future lies in the synthetics.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2017-07-31 18:12
I will be interested in hearing the feedback of those who end up trying this program to see if it is a viable option or just marketing.
I suppose in some ways. synthetics can be considered the future as they are an unlimited resource. It is not as if Legere will run out of plastic. There is a lot of cane out there, but it is less than unlimited and subject to the variances of any natural product.
At the same time, the Legeres I have tried have positives, but they are also somewhat inconsistent, just as cane is. I like a lot about the European cut, but in my opinion, they are still not as good as a good cane reed.
Post Edited (2017-07-31 18:14)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-08-05 17:45
Intrigued by this thread, I ordered half a dozen of these reeds, 3 each of two strengths.
My immediate reaction - Oh, Lord! Another reed that takes more work to open than to play! The packaging enclosing each reed is even more annoying than Vandoren's sealed foil wrappers, which tear easily. I'm sure there will be players, especially ones with arthritic fingers, who need scissors to cut this plastic. Even though it's notched on both sides to provide a starting point, tearing this stuff is work!
Karl
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-08-05 19:57
Of course their play will be the true acid test but your challenges in merely getting them open are noted.
Was there at least, "at the end of the day," intended meaningful purpose--at least that you could conclude--to the this packaging Karl beyond say, appearing fancy?
To rephrase the question and put it in context, for all one might take issue (or not) with Vandoren's reed packing, their claim (if not marketing hype) is that the reeds are sealed at the precise humidity controlled environment of the factory, and that this foil, difficult to remove or not, helps keep the humidity on the inside of the reed container less subject to change until the seal's broken.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-08-05 21:41
WhitePlainsDave wrote:
> Was there at least, "at the end of the day," intended
> meaningful purpose--at least that you could conclude--to the
> this packaging Karl beyond say, appearing fancy?
>
> [Vandoren's]
> claim (if not marketing hype) is that the reeds are sealed at
> the precise humidity controlled environment of the factory, and
> that this foil, difficult to remove or not, helps keep the
> humidity on the inside of the reed container less subject to
> change until the seal's broken.
Well, of course, this has been discussed before on this forum. My own opinion is that the moisture content of the reed when I open the sealed packaging is meaningless - I don't play it in the package. It sits in my environment, not that of the factory. Once it's out of the package, it has to adapt to my local conditions. If there's value in having shipped actual water from the factory to my music studio within the cane, then I suppose there's the benefit (or not). Maybe I'm somehow benefiting from ingesting the water the reed contained when it was shipped.
The fact is that through a quick "toot" through all 6 reeds, I really didn't find anything much to like about them as they came. I have no real idea yet what I could do with them. So, at least for me, the packaging didn't improve the reeds' responsiveness. IMO, it's just part of the hype.
Karl
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2017-08-06 01:46
I kind of get the idea, for better or worse, that along with their reed humidity storage product line, Vandoren might have you go from open package to moist mouth to humidity controlled storage environment with haste, thereby keeping the humidity at some baseline level.
Do I think with, albeit, my homemade sealed case and two 72% humidity Boveda packs that this setup, compared to a non humidified control, makes a whole lot of difference...? I doubt it. Maybe startup time for already in rotation cycle reeds is faster.
I'd like to know why absolute humidity rather than relative humidity is the metric here (or is it?) Warmer air can hold more moisture and all else equal, lowers relative humidity (how much water the air at the current temperature can hold.)
So if the reeds are kept in a warmer environment where the air around them can hold more moisture, wouldn't, holding absolute humidity static, less--for better or worse--moisture enter the reed, able to/and occupying the air instead ?
And for those players storing reeds in the refrigerator's sighting lower absolutely humidity levels, is this negated by the colder air's reduced affinity to hold the otherwise reduced moisture in the air?
I think we can both agree Karl to give the Alta's a bit more of the "college try" before closing the book on them.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-08-06 02:34
WhitePlainsDave wrote:
>
> I think we can both agree Karl to give the Alta's a bit more of
> the "college try" before closing the book on them.
Actually my second impression of the reeds themselves tonight is much better. Last night was a hurried affair before a rehearsal - slap the reed onto the mouthpiece, hold it with my right thumb and play a few left-hand notes. Tonight I wasn't in a hurry so, I'm sure, wet them a little longer and played them with a ligature holding them instead of my thumb and both of my hands on the clarinet, and they actually did play much better. And none of them was unplayable, if just getting the notes to speak is the criterion (back to your original point). So the jury's still out on the reeds, although the price puts me off, since they still don't seem to blow the other reeds out of the market. At best, they may turn out to be very good.
But I still don't see any relevance in what the moisture content was when they were packed. I'm unpacking them before I play a single note. Once I play on them even for a few minutes, they hold far more moisture than they shipped with, and I don't store them in controlled humidity (another over-discussed topic I hope to avoid right now), so they dry between uses.
Maybe interestingly, they were each unbalanced and will need at least some work to play well. But they weren't consistently heavier on one side. Some were right-heavy, some were left-heavy. I have no idea why yet.
Karl
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