 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: runner
Date: 2016-12-13 18:12
Yesterday the colleague I teach with told me NOT to play along with my 5th grade (beginners) and 6th grade students. I obeyed since he recommended me to the Superintendent to create a position for me (one hour per day).
I have played along during lessons quite a bit. I have also had to do lessons when I did not bring my horns: clarinet, flute, alto sax .
I sang a miss played part, clapped, tapped etc. and I felt empty doing it.
Will I go crazy? I presume the vast majority will reply that I never play along, so I am prepared.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2016-12-13 18:27
I ALWAYS play along with all students. Now, it's been awhile since I had an active studio, but my students always tended to make very good progress. I wouldn't accept a teaching job that didn't allow it, as I think it's a terrible idea to not play along.
If a picture is worth a thousand words, a sound is worth ten thousand. Once, when I was in grad school, my teacher kept trying to get me to try certain tone coloring in a passage of Debussy. Though very verbally articulate, he kept getting frustrated that I didn't 'get it.' Finally, I said "Oh c'mon, just take out your horn and play it for me." He did, and I copied what he was suggesting immediately. Had he just done that to begin with, we could have saved hours of lesson time...
He was an old man at the time, though, with bad arthritis and a full time symphony job...so he had to save his hours for work. I understood that. But for the young and/or healthy, there's no excuse IMO.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-12-13 22:25
Are you talking about modelling or actually playing with the student? I can't imagine teaching young students effectively without playing *for* them. Giving a younger student a model is much more immediately useful than verbiage that tends to be loaded with words that may not mean the same things to the teacher and the student.
Playing *with* a student can, IMO, get in the way of having the student hear and learn to evaluate what's coming from his instrument. If the goal is to train a specific rhythm, it can be useful as a way to pattern the student's playing, especially if an incorrect way of playing the rhythm has become habituated. But it limits his ability to hear himself. On the other side of the coin, *I* can't really hear what the student is doing, either, except for a wrong note or rhythm. But I can't really hear his sound or the quality of his legato or staccato or how well he understands a phrase shape.
I do play duets sometimes with my students as a way to get them to think about playing an independent part accurately.
The bottom line is that how a teacher works with a student should depend on what's needed to help the student improve in specific contexts, not on any kind of universal routine. Different problems need different solutions, and no two lessons are completely alike in content or process.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JasonOlney
Date: 2016-12-13 23:00
Hey Runner,
It really depends and I tend to go through periods with more playing and less playing. I always do as much modeling as I can and I tend to play along with my younger students more than my older students. When I do play along, I still have them play alone to make sure that they can play whichever passage without my extra support. The younger the student, the more that I point out the problems that are happening for them, since they haven't developed a critical ear yet. I have older students do as much of the evaluating of their playing as I can make them. I'm with Karl, though- I just can't diagnose things if I'm playing along. I'd be surprised if my students could hear themselves clearly enough to hear any issues, either.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: runner
Date: 2016-12-13 23:33
I have my students "evaluate" their own playing by merely stating :"Can you play it better?" It works. It seems when they replay the passage the things the did not do well are played better. I think it forces them to use their higher level think skills (evaluation and analysis ). But I definitely have to "play along" when we are doing duets which I do often. Also one of our jobs is to "model" the behavior we expect the student to achieve.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-12-14 00:28
runner wrote:
> I have my students "evaluate" their own playing by merely
> stating :"Can you play it better?" It works. It seems when
> they replay the passage the things the did not do well are
> played better.
This also depends on the student. I have a couple of students who are aware enough of their own playing output to self-diagnose, which is my goal with every student. And they can only do that if they can hear themselves.
But I also have a few who, if I ask generically "Can you play it better?" will find something to change (they assume from the question that something wasn't right) but repeat the actual problem uncorrected because they have no idea what was wrong - they haven't learned yet to listen self-critically. They need to be able to hear themselves if they're ever going to learn to self-diagnose.
So, if asking them to self-correct gets a useful response, I'm thrilled. If it doesn't, I need to be the diagnostician and the prescriber if any improvement is to happen. Whether that can can be done better by playing along or by either explaining or modelling and then keeping quiet while they try to apply a correction IMO depends on the problem.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-12-14 00:53
I know that Gilbert likes to play along with his student, so that they can hear what he's doing and match him and hear what he wants and is talking about. So that they have a better concept of what dynamics, cresc, decresc, focus, and ring is.
I also know a former teacher of mine studied with Krakauer and said he couldn't learn much, because Krakauer more told how to play without playing. My former teacher is more of an auditory learner, so explanations don't vibe with him very well. One day Krakauer finally took out his clarinet and played for him what he wanted, as soon as he did that my former teacher learned how to do it instantly.
Hawkins I know does both. He explains it first and if a student still can't get it he plays it for them. Best of both worlds I say. I'm studying with his teacher, Randall Griffin, and he explains for the most part, but plays when he needs to. However, he also shows it through singing and conducting as you play (similar to Hawkins.)
From the lessons I've had with Aufmann he does both also.
Post Edited (2016-12-14 01:02)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony M
Date: 2016-12-14 01:42
From a student's perspective, my teacher plays with me. Apart from the many things that she has taught me, it became apparent that I had the capacity to blend with her and that was instinctive, whereas when playing solo, I lacked confidence in my sound. It didn't take long for me to identify technical issues that would improve my solo playing and then improve in both areas (solo and duet playing).
As a student I have found it invaluable that my teacher plays along with me.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2016-12-14 03:43
Are you talking about private lessons or a class situation? When I taught instrument classes I played along occasionally, but I'm not sure it helped all that much.
In private lesson teaching, I play along with students at times during every lesson, and I think it's quite helpful to them. The majority of the time, though, they play alone.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: runner
Date: 2016-12-14 19:53
I'm talking in both class and private lessons. The students I am referring to are 5th grade beginners and some 6th graders. The 6th graders I play along with ( 2nd year) are from my colleague's class. I walk in during the last 10 minutes and help listen to the the lines they are mastering from book 2. I stress good hand position and feel that holding the instrument to show close fingers is helpful.Otherwise I grab their instrument if I am not "allowed to play along.
Yesterday I showed a student that keeping the first finger down while going from top line f to throat b flat is desired. It helped the student and he thanked me when he left the room.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sax panther
Date: 2016-12-14 21:10
sometimes it's helpful, in my experience. If you're trying to explain to a student that they're coming in late, or playing the wrong rhythm and they're just not getting it, sometimes it helps things drop into place if you play it together with them.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2016-12-15 02:48
Was this 'request' accompanied by a musical reason, or was it someone showing you "I'm the boss"?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: runner
Date: 2016-12-15 08:12
The latter. He's primarily a brass player. He was generous enough to ask the superintendent to create a position for me so he feels I need to adapt to his style. He gives me good advice. He worked with one of my flute students who wrote in all the letter names. He gives these students to choose only ONE of the first five notes. That shows his genius.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JasonOlney
Date: 2016-12-15 23:51
I'm not sure someone else has suggested this but for those of you who are having trouble with students who can't hear their own mistakes, I find that playing their mistake for them and then playing the correct version helps. The student gets to listen to each and choose which sounds best. If they choose the wrong one, well, that's okay. I might give them a second chance or simply reveal the correct one but over time they start to hear the differences in the two choices. This works on a basic level for beginners and on a much more sophisticated level for advanced students, where I can have students choose which expression or intonation or style is better.
Sometimes in group lessons this works differently. One student will play and then others are asked to evaluate specific aspects. I might ask them to listen for a particular set of notes or an expressive motion or articulation and talk to the person who played about it. Developing aural skills and error evaluation are the two most important musical skills I can help foster in my students, imho.
Maybe this is all a little off topic but I got carried away.
Post Edited (2016-12-15 23:56)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
