 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-01-02 19:21
Recently I've purchased a clarinet from e-bay. The sale was CLEARLY fraudulent. PayPal washed their hands without even trying to help. Case was closed. (BTW, I've recovered some of the money with eBay's help)
Next case:
Couple days ago I received an email from them telling me that I may be the recipient of potentially fraudulent funds, and they have placed a pending reversal on the funds in question until the investigation is complete. This pending reversal will show as a deduction in my available balance. Now, wait a minute, is it PayPal's responsibility to check if the payment is fraudulent before they accept it and inform me that I got the payment? Now when I already shipped the item they are telling me this!? Whose fault is this? I have nothing to do with all of this!
IMO PayPal really sucks!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-01-02 19:34
Vytas wrote:
>
PayPal is pretty explicit in their fine print, and they change their rules relatively often just to keep you confused ... but ... they're easy and cheap compared to almost anything else when you want to try & use a credit card.
That being said ...
Woodwind.Org will be offering a service to try and remedy those problems ...
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-01-02 19:54
Vytas,
Sorry to hear that happened to you.
That's one reason I've always discouraged people I know from dealing with E-Bay type places.
I've heard some excellent stories, but I've also heard a large share of horror stories and since an individual can't tell which it will eventually be, I'd just as soon stay away from it.
There's a lot of stuff that gets auctioned off on these sites that by the time the bidding frenzy of the last few minutes is over, the person who "won" it could have bought it, either locally or elsewhere, for about the same price (and no shipping charges added on) without all the stress and shilling that goes on at these auction sites.
I'm not saying that the auction sites are dishonest, just that some of the people who deal through them may not be exactly honest.
There are people who have been previously kicked off the site for whatever reason, who get themselves a different Internet provider and I.D, then sign up again as someone else. Then they can, again, endeavor to engage in chicanery for as long as it takes the webmasters to catch up with them again, and so on.
Amazing how insistent some people can be!
I see people selling mouthpieces, ligatures and reeds for as little as five dollars on some of these sites. My son can take a mouthpiece or ligature to school and sell it for more than that in the course of a day, and not incur any shipping charges!
Still, to each his own.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-01-02 20:03
I empathize, Vytas, and in no way intend to minimize your frustration. I know others who agree wholeheartedly with you. When doing cyber-business however, it's helpful to remind ourselves that PayPal and other credit card facilitators handle more trasactions in a month, or even a day, than most of us can begin to imagine. I hope they'll eventually get your situation sorted out as equitably as possible. You say you received a notice only a couple of days ago. I know it's difficult but, considering the grand volume of business they handle, try to have patience. I've seen others complain when things 'go wrong' but really, as Mark points out, they're relatively cheap and user friendly in comparison to almost anything else involving a credit card.
I know very well how it is to have your money tied up, held hostage, for any reason while 'they' try to get things straightened out. I really do :| It's hard.
I've yet to have a problem with PayPal but I'm curious, Mark, how Woodwind.Org could help with that.
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2003-01-02 21:16
Hey Peter, if you'd give your kids a "living and adjustable allowance" you wouldn't loose so many ligatures and mouthpieces- Heh Heh!
Bob A
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2003-01-02 21:40
V,
PayPal is OWNED by eBay! I would think that the parent company could help you with a subsidiary, but perhaps not. I only use PayPal on the receiving end, when someone wants to pay for repair work without me calling them to get their CC info. I would much rather use my merchant account since the disount fee is much lower, but some people prefer the option.
I'm sorry to hear that you are on the receiving end of a bad business transaction. Hopefully, it will be resolved. Good luck to you.
jbutler
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-01-02 22:09
Bob A.,
I wondered where my stuff was disappearing to!
Well, I hope they, at least, make enough money out of it to support their old man, in his old age, in the manner to which he would like to become accustomed.
Now I can only hope I'm their "old man" and that they are agreeable to that arrangement!
Peter
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-01-02 22:25
Vytas,
Please tell us more about the transaction; the scam has been circulating around the Globe. It would be nice to know what may become the next hotspot.
There was a nexus of fraudulent PayPal use in Detroit, last year.
The other half of the PayPal equation is that they will gleefully offer a 'chargeback' to the buyer if the credit card company presses the case. I have also had funds frozen by PayPal for asking the buyer to defray the 3% convenience 'tax' charged the seller - without warning.
PayPal is completely unregulated, and could fold without consequence to the operators.
Money Orders and Cashier's checks are slow, but difficult to forge.
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2003-01-03 00:15
SB,
Some very good points. I DO NOT keep any money in my PayPal account. Once it is posted I immediately transfer the money to my bank funds.
jbutler
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-01-03 00:21
On December 23, a person from VA won one of my auctions on eBay. Payment was made via PayPal immediately. I've shipped the item the next day.
On Dec. 28, I got an email from the buyer thanking me for wonderful transaction and he left positive feedback for me. This guy has 81 positive transactions on eBay and seems like a very nice person. Call me crazy, but I don't think he is a fraud. That's the story.
My PayPal premium account has to protect me from this type of fraud (at least that's what they claim), but check the small print!
"PayPal shall not be obligated to pay a User for any Payments for which PayPal has not been fully paid by the Sender's credit card issuer or bank, as applicable".
Whatever the outcome - PayPal sucks!!
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-01-03 00:38
jbutler,
That's exactly what I always do! When PayPal reversed the payment my balance became negative and I immediately received a warning from them to add funds immediately with a threat to sue me.
Small print:
"When you receive funds through PayPal, if the sender's transaction is reversed for any reason and you do not qualify for the Seller Protection Policy for that transaction, you will owe PayPal for the amount of the reversed transaction plus any fees imposed on PayPal as a result of the reversal. You agree to reimburse PayPal from either your PayPal account or by other means as described in Section IV.2 under "Receipt of Payments."
BTW, I do qualify for the Seller Protection Policy for that transaction.
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Author: Michael McC.
Date: 2003-01-03 00:42
From what I hear, the shipping charges are where most of the money is made. You could sell a half-used tube of cork grease for a dollar and a half but charge ten for shipping, though it only may cost a dollar to ship. I have heard of people selling old things like perfume samples and shampoos and charging exorbitant amounts for shipping and handling, and making big profits. I try to stay away from it.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2003-01-03 02:27
I loose more money on shipping than anything else. I shipped out an R-13 today that cost me $5.00 in packing materials over what I charged.
If you opt out of PayPal (as lots of sellers have done) you will need to provide another method for buyers to pay with a credit card. That's the only reason I keep it. However, they are constantly warning not to ship to addresses that are different than the billing address on the credit card. It's a dilemna.
And, by the way, there are a few honest sellers on eBay. If you use the Buy it Now price, you are indeed buying it just like any other purchase online. Otherwise it is an auction deal. Be careful and investigate your seller. Contact some of those who purchased similar items (found in the feedback section) about what kind of service they received and how prompt the shipment came, etc.
One of my eBay contacts is Norman Portnoy--his son is one of the founders of PayPal. He's a clarinet player with a fantastic collection of Kaspar mouthpieces.
PayPal is a needed service--but, I agree with Vytas that some serious "tweeking" needs to happen now that eBay has bought it. They're certainly making money on all of us who sell through them.
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2003-01-03 04:25
Just a quiet wonderment. How come they can open your account, and confirm it with electronic deposits, in a matter of hours. But when you want to withdraw some money from your account and put it into your Bank account (the same one they confirmed) it takes " three to four business days" and possibly more if your bank etc., etc., ?? What was it the White Queen said?) "Sometimes I believe several impossible things before breakfast" (or thoughts to that effect).
Bob A
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-01-03 05:05
PayPal is very open on how they make their money - they make it on the "float" (the time the money spends in their account rather than yours gathers interest for them), which is why they take 3-4 days to clear and why setting up "auto-sweep" (transferring the money in your account to the bank every night automatically) will cost you: they're hoping you forget to transfer funds every night.
The percentage they charge for CC is about the same as is charged to any merchant, but you save the monthly recurring charges and merchant account fees that are charged by online CC processors. The fees are not trivial for a small business!
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-01-03 05:44
If this will help anyone, I don't do mail order business, but ocassionally purchase and/or sell something over the the net, and I'm always shipping and receiving stuff from business clients.
Even though it can be a pain in the butt, I make a definite point of talking to the person I'm buying something from. It doesn't mean I will never get nailed, but if I don't like the sound of the person, up front, I won't transact business with him/her.
I always ask for photos of the item in question, plus ensure that the seller e-mails me all pertaining information, including make, model, estimated condition and any money-back guarantee we agree on, in case I need to show proof of how the transaction was agreed to, etc., at a later date.
I also look them up in the White or Yellow Pages, on the web, to ensure that they are at the address where they say they are at and have a current, valid, telephone number at which I can reach them.
I got nailed only once, so far. I solved it by getting in touch with the local police department where the seller lived and they agreed to "look into it." The person they went to see called me while the police were still at his house and the next day my money and his merchandise crossed paths in the Fed-Ex airways, each on the way back home.
I will only accept personal or business checks, money orders or cashier's check. If the person is not in a hurry, they can wait for their check to clear, if they are in a hurry, they can overnight me a cashier's check or money order by Fed-Ex and I can ship the item out as soon as I deposit the cashier's check or money order. There isn't much they can do about it once it's deposited and cleared, which the bank does on the spot.
I always have various and sundry empty boxes around from shipping and receiving items from business clients, and at worst, I may have to cut one up to make a box that will fit what I'm shipping out.
As far as packing to protect the item in the box during shipping, if I don't have something laying around, also left over from something received, I have a shredder that I use for all paperwork and designs I discard. I generally save a couple of large lawn bags full of the stuff in my shed to use for just such a purpose as padding for shipping.
If you use Fed-Ex, it takes less than two minutes to call them up, press "0" to get a person on the line, give them the two zip codes, service requested, approximate dimentions and weight of the box and they will give you an accurate cost estimate up front.
Aside from that, I don't have any payment plans like Pay-Pal or bank accounts that anyone else can have any control over, except for me and, perhaps, a partner or my wife.
I like to be able to count on my money and not have anyone else dipping into it without my specific approval.
I know there are those of you out there who do mail order business regularly and you know much more about the procedures than I do, but, for some of you who maybe don't, if any of this makes any sense to you, be my guest.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-01-03 12:19
One of the more alarming developments is the conjunction of the Auction house and Banking service... eBay is interested in collecting fees - the new arrangement points to the strength of caution in this sort of expensive purchase.
The only existing protection for buyers and sellers is Escrow.com, which is far from free. It secures funds, tracks the package and provides for an inspection period.
A qualified Escrow service would be welcome.
Will the Woodwind.org service be offering appraisals, as well?
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2003-01-03 13:44
There are several other things honest eBay sellers can do to help their buyers have confidence in their purchases. Square Trade is an extra insurance policy (covers $250.00 additional) and rates its sellers. The phone call idea is also good, as Peter suggested. I never mind someone calling me and asking me about an instrument or other expensive item. Another thing is references--try to get in touch with some satisfied (or dissatisfied) customers about the seller.
The plus everyone wants about buying on eBay is--it's usually a bargain--unless you get a bad seller or buyer. I've had some really, really bad buyers as well.
Overall, PayPal works pretty well if everything goes ok. It does enable sellers like myself to take credit cards. This is a good thing for people who can't afford to write a check for their purchase. And, if they don't make money they won't stay in business. Dot coms can't give away their services. We just need a better way to defeat fraud.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-01-03 13:50
Synonymous Botch wrote:
>
> Will the Woodwind.org service be offering appraisals, as
> well?
Possibly; appraisals can be a real nightmare, though - you'd have to pay an upfront fee and provide round-trip shipping, and your "pride and joy" might well be appraised at a price significantly lower than you think it's worth. Makes for "unhappy campers" very quickly.
I'm writing the guidelines for our "Certified Classifieds" service, and they will clearly state that the clarinet will be tested "as-is" and any service or repairs should be made <b>before</b> we receive it.
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