 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dan
Date: 2002-12-31 13:33
Recently I received 3 new student clarinets for trial/evaluation and all 3 had problems. All needed "tweaking" for optimum performance.
So here's my question for the day...What's the difference (besides tonal qualities) between buying a student clarinet that needs "tweaking" and buying a "hand picked" R13 and then sending it off for a high priced "tweaking" at the Brannen facility?
To me there is a fundamental similarity here. (Neither clarinet was "good enough" right off the shelf.)
Anyone care to comment?
Do have a Happy New Year!
Dan
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Author: Kim
Date: 2002-12-31 14:51
Student clarinets are plastic and bright.
Intermediate clarinets, which are made of wood(grenadilla) are made to sound and look like a professional horn.
Advanced/Professional instruments are made of select grenadilla and other woods and are made to sound the best.
Happy New Year.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2002-12-31 15:32
I do not find that the student clarinets are any "brighter" than the others. It depends on the player, reed, and mouthpiece.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2002-12-31 15:35
Actually, most clarinets need "tweeking" to one degree or another. Most pros like to have specific things done to their instruments. The Brannens put cork pads in the upper joints and give the instrument a fine-tuning as to spring tension, "feel" and intonation.
I don't believe I've ever taken an instrument right from the box--student or pro--and not needed to make some type of minor adjustment. This includes very expensive and very inexpensive models.
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Author: Dan
Date: 2002-12-31 15:45
David, thank you for your insightful response. Yes, I'm certain that Brannen would do a much, much better job. But, the question still remains basically the same...why should any clarinet, especially the world famous R13, need "tweaking"? It still seems to boil down to the unfortunate fact that ANY clarinet, student or professional R13, will need "adjustments" for optimization.
So...it appears the only real difference is in the "quality" of the optimization.
To Kim: I just purchased a plastic Prestini clarinet and, according to my ears, it is anything but bright. IMO, the mpc, reed, ligature, and barrel have more to do with brightness than the actual body of the instrument.
Any other comments? My thanks to all of you in advance.
Dan
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Author: Kim
Date: 2002-12-31 16:08
Student instruments are also more susceptible to intonation problems as the student grows into the instrument because of developmental reasons only.
Professional instruments have their own intonation problems, but an advanced student will generally need to change mouthpiece facings, not instruments, unless they so choose.
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Author: Dan
Date: 2002-12-31 16:29
Kim: my plastic student Prestini has incredible intonation which I find quite astonishing because of no undercutting of the tone holes. Also, the tone evenness is quite surprising.
As to student models being more susceptible to intonation problems, I have heard so many negative things, intonation wise, concerning the R13, that I would beg to differ with you.
BTW, I want you to know that I appreciate your input.
Dan
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-12-31 16:41
First, I don't know if there is any consensus as to what "student clarinet" means other than they are less expensive than all others.
As long as people keep buying new horns that don't play "right" the makers will keep selling them. What would your reaction be if your new Ford had to be tweaked at some independent garage??
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Author: Dan
Date: 2002-12-31 17:03
Bob: That's exactly my point. I was going to bring up the car example myself, but, you beat me to it.
Again, referring to the R13 or to any other student or professional clarinet, why should anyone need to try out a dozen or more instruments before they find a "good" one? Why is "hand picked" by a noteable professional even necessary? We don't try out a dozen cars of the same model before we find an acceptable one or rely upon a noteable professional to find us a really "good" car.
So...it appears that ALL clarinet manufacturers basically have the exact same problem...poor quality control. (IMO)
I really have no idea where this is all leading...I guess I noticed a strong similarity between lower and higher priced instruments and wondered if others saw what I did.
Dan
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2002-12-31 19:46
I don't think the public would be willing to throw away money for this long, if there were not some genuine benefits from the higher priced instruments.
The succinct analogy would really be to diminishing returns...
What is the last 15% of performance worth to you?
A more important bit of research would be the intent of the player, certainly the introductory instruments are far better than the professional lines of 50 years ago but it is the attention to detail, in the last steps of assembly, that makes so much difference. This same line of arguement was hashed over, months ago, about the Vito VSP and V40.
Responses from the Netizens of THIS board will be slanted toward the negative concerning the equipment.
*If you ask the top players, the equipment is the LEAST worry*
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Author: Rick
Date: 2003-01-01 03:47
Dan, Botch & Bob:
You've each made some interesting points as have others regarding quality and brand loyalty. One issue though regarding quality control is what is acceptable to the market. I've been thinking about this for a bit, just a bit and it occurs to me that a lot, though not all of what is being discussed is a matter of preference rather than strictly a quality control issue.
Now, using myself as an example so no one gets offended, I recently purchased a major brand professional clarinet. When I play it using my setup, it plays rather sharp on open G. Open the barrel a bit and it is within 10 cents on the notes from the bottom to mid altissimo. Is this a QC issue if someone using a different MP and reed or just a different player can get better results with no adjustment?
Using the car analogy, Italian cars are noted for being set up for drivers with longish legs and short arms. If it doesn't fit you, is that a QC issue?
Now, just to play Devil's Advocate, I could argue that Buffet, by making such a wide range of variations in their instruments are serving a broader range of players tastes. Now I don't believe that for a second, but I could make that argument…g. Conversely, would it serve the broader range of customers if every clarinet within a model played identical? And if so, how do you achieve that considering the variation in MP's and reeds and players?
Here is a question I would pose. What would be the litmus test of QC for an instrument manufacturer that would be acceptable to everyone? It's an interesting question that I'd like to hear discussion on.
Best
RW
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2003-01-01 13:05
Dan -
Unfortunately, there are only a few artist quality clarinet makers whose instruments always come perfectly adjusted and reliably play well from the start. I think of Wurlitzer, Rossi and Fox. But the fit and finish of Powell and Haynes flutes, for example, is miles ahead of even them.
Buffet, Leblanc, Selmer and Yamaha clarinets are the equivalent of Ford cars -- well designed, well made, but not finished by hand. Like instrument dealers, car dealers have to perform pretty elaborate service on what comes from the factory. If a gifted clarinetmaker apprenticed with Haynes and started making clarinets of that quality, they'd sell for $10,000, and I'd order one in a minute, but it's not likely, when you can get a Greg Smith selected, Brannanized R-13 for about 1/3 that.
Heckel bassoons cost as much as a car, and, bassoonists tell me, have to be practically rebuilt to play well, so we're lucky.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Preston
Date: 2003-01-01 14:32
Dan,
I couldn't agree more. I don't buy a clarinet unless it has everything I am looking for. Why spend all that money on a clarinet that is less than satisfactory to begin with. I have found that if you take the time to try lots of clarinets over a period of time, you will find "the one." A lot of people rush the process and end up paying for it in the end.
I had a similar experience with mouthpieces. I spent a whole year trying mouthpieces to find the right one. It was very frustrating at times, but the end result was worth it.
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Author: Dan
Date: 2003-01-01 16:08
My thanks to all for your responses.
Rick: you brought up some very insightful items, which, I must admit, took me some time to come up some kind of a response to further clarify the situation.
So, now that I've had a nice, long sleep, what I've come up with is this: I had 3 new clarinets in my home that had pad seating problems. (Yamaha, Hanson, and Prestini) How about demanding a minimal (to be determined) pressure check at the manufacturer before the instrument leaves the factory? If they had done that, IMO, none of these clarinets would have made it out their door. This might be analogous to a car maker doing a compression check on each engine to make sure the rings (pads) are seating correctly. When I repad a clarinet, I always do a pressure check with a light touch on the normally open pads. If it doesn't meet my standards, I start looking for where the problem(s) is (are).
As to tuning, I agree, that there are so many factors to be taken into consideration, that it might be difficult to achieve some agreed upon standard (which mpc, reed, ligature, etc.).
Ken: I must say that I was totally surprised that the "Big 4" didn't make your list of "off the shelf", "ready to play" instruments. I found your posting to be very enlightening and it was easy (for me) to see that you apparently have many years of experience to reflect upon. And, what strikes me as rather interesting is the fact that the prices of the Rossi and the Fox instruments are pretty much equal to or might be just slightly higher than the "top of the line" of the "Big 4". Does the R13 sound so much better that the Rossi and Fox "lose out" even though they are crafted to much higher standards? Why aren't the "truly famous, well recognized" players using a Rossi or Fox? Why aren't major symphonies "demanding" that their clarinetists play a Rossi or a Fox? Just some "food for thought" questions.
So...getting back to a fundamental manufacturing technique...what do you think? Is a basic compression check "too expensive" for a manufacturer to do? Is this really asking too much? Or if they began doing this and had to raise the price a few dollars...would the public stop buying?
All comments are very much appreciated.
Dan
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Author: Mark Charette, Webmaster
Date: 2003-01-01 16:12
Dan wrote:
> Why aren't major symphonies "demanding" that
> their clarinetists play a Rossi or a Fox?
Why should they? The player buys his/her own tools (except in very rare occasions) - the symphony doesn't care as long as the player performs acceptably.
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Author: Dan
Date: 2003-01-01 16:29
To Mark C: I've read conflicting comments about this. From my readings, it appears that some do and some don't. What I really find interesting is that, it appears, some elementary schools and some high schools "require" their students to play a certain instrument.
If the "majors" don't care but the "minors" do...I find this to be rather perplexing.
Thanks Mark.
Dan
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Author: Dee
Date: 2003-01-01 18:21
Very simple. The "majors" expect the player to be competent and that includes being able to select the appropriate "tools" for the job. The "minors" do not expect the players to yet have that level of expertise. However I disagree with schools dictating what brand to play other than a generic approach that it be a good instrument. I.e. nix the Bestlers but allow any of our better makers. Don't dictate Buffet over Selmer, etc.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-01-01 19:42
Dan wrote:
>
> To Mark C: I've read conflicting comments about this.
> From my readings, it appears that some do and some don't.
No majors that I've heard of have made demands on the brand (though some German orchestras have demanded particular types), though of couse I don't know the particulars of every major orchestra.
I agree with Dee in the fact that youger orchestras and bands need some guidance as to what instruments should be purchased. Band directors have some mighty problems, though; "Aunt Nellie's" clarinet may not be the right one for the job, but parents, mostly trying to be both frugal and smart, aften insist on using that old clarinet even though it may not be very good. The recommendation of the R13 in general isn't a bad one; it's one of the least expensive good clarinets out there.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2003-01-01 20:24
I do have a philosophical problem with high schools and down dictating professional instrument for the band students. The cost simply isn't justified when only a very small percentage of the students have a serious interest in pursuing music and an even smaller percentage will do so. So long as it is kept in good repair, a Bundy, Vito, B-12, or equivalent Yamaha is appropriate to see the student through high school (unless he/she is very serious about music) especially if the band director sees to it that they have information on good mouthpieces, reeds, and the necessity of maintenance.
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Author: Mike
Date: 2003-01-02 16:27
All I know is that when I was at all-state band in Virginia a couple of years ago, everyone in the clarinet section had a Buffet R13 clarinet....
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