 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Meri
Date: 1999-02-05 13:59
There has been some discussion of "vintage" clarinets. As I so far understand it, this term refers to clarinets (particularly Buffets) made between 1963-1969, and that these instruments are generally much more valuable than instruments older or newer than that.
I have three questions about such clarinets:
1. Why are these clarinets generally much more valuable than older or newer instruments?
I suppose that it is because Buffet had perfected its art, and at the same time, the quality of wood used in making such instruments is excellent.
2. Where can I get a reliable assessment of the true value of such instruments? (because I found out that vintage instruments are worth what a new R-13 costs today)
3. Does this term really refer to clarinets made during the period of 1963-1969?
Meri
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Author: Jo
Date: 1999-02-05 14:43
Well,
It seems Buffet must feel the same way if in fact they are currently producing a copy of the Vintage . Check out thier specs to see what the differences are.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-02-05 17:24
1. Some people believe that they are of a higher quality and more consistent in quality. However this is very subjective and not all people would agree (not even all the fans of Buffet would agree).
2. You cannot really get a reliable assessment of any used clarinet. The best indicator is trying to sell it and see what the market is willing to pay. While I have seen sellers asking for such prices, that doesn't mean the buyers paid that much. Also many people are unaware of the big discrepancy between the list price and what the major distributors will discount them for. So the sellers may be pricing based on a percentage of the list price and the buyers may think they are getting a bargain even when that exceeds the normal discounted price. For example the list for an R-13 is over $3000 while the discounted price runs about $1800. You can find people paying this price for much newer used clarinets simply because they are uninformed on the difference between the list price and the typical discounted price.
2a. Another comment on assessments. You also need to make sure that the assessor knows the reason that you need the assessment. If it is for insurance purposes, you have to look at the replacement cost. This is generally quite a bit higher than you could sell it for as you may have to buy new to replace it.
3. In general the term vintage is used for any older item in good condition that doesn't yet fall into the antique category. So the term vintage (uncapitalized) is NOT restricted to any particular time period or model or brand. Now due to the preference that some players have for the R-13's of the '63-'69 time period, Buffet has chosen to reproduce that instrument and used the name Vintage (capitalized) as the model name.
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Author: paul
Date: 1999-02-05 21:05
I agree with Dee for the following reasons.
A few of the early to mid 1960s era Buffet R-13s are apparently very highly valued by professional clarinetists for these horns' excellent quality and tone. The big (very BIG) "catch" here is finding the one horn that was hand picked by a pro who knew exactly what to look for in the best-of-the best comparison of a couple of dozen horns the pro could select from. That one special horn typically was absolutely superb, back then and is still exceptional today. What most people seem to miss is that the other horns that weren't accepted by the pro in the batch were also eventually sold and put on the market. Out of a couple of dozen horns, one or two of the horns would rise to the top and be purchased by the pro.
Now, let's look at the same scenario almost 40 years later. Pros still like to hand pick their own horn out of a batch of available horns. That's okay, because I'd do it too if I made my living at it. Here's the twist. Because of computer driven machinery and other quality control practices, the odds of getting one or two less than absolutely impressive horns today are about the same as getting one or two superlative horns in the past. Did you see the twist? Almost all of the horns are great today and even the pros can't see or hear the differences between them. That's a huge change for the better compared to the way things were in the past.
Now, with this point in mind, what I believe you were originally talking about is the one or two superlative horns that were hand picked by pros way back when. These horns are still the top of the marque in my opinion. The average contemporary computer milled horn sometimes can't perform as well as one of the very best of the classic exceptional horns. However, to be totally fair, if you compare the statistically average pro-grade horn from 40 years ago to the statistically average pro-grade or premium pro-grade horn today, you might find that today's horns tend to be higher quality and better performers.
I personally played next to a college senior music major(specializing in the clarinet, of course) who had one of those pro hand picked Buffet R-13 beauties from the early 1960s. In comparison, I am just an adult novice with a 1994 Buffet Festival. She was technically much more proficient than me, so that part of our polite competition was no contest. However, I could match her quality of tone and intonation note-for-note on my "average" Festival versus her pro hand picked vintage R-13. We both exchanged lustful looks at each other's horns, too. In the end, we kept our own horns.
If you happen to get very lucky to find one of those classic horns that is of exceptional quality that is available for sale, buy it. Just be very careful to make sure you have done all of your homework and verified beyond all doubt that the horn is indeed one of those truly exceptional horns. Otherwise, you may end up being very disappointed with it. I believe that the odds of you getting one of the very best horns from back then without professional connections are very low.
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Author: John Dean
Date: 1999-02-05 22:08
I understand the desired serial numbers for Buffet lie between 70,000 and 100,00. Why?-I dont't know and there must of course be exceptional examples therein.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 1999-02-10 04:53
Vintage may mean:
1)Good craftmanship.Buffet's RC means legendary craftman Robert Carret.We are lucking good craftmen in all manufacturing field.
2)Good grenadilla.Long and good drying process.
3)Customized.In old days almost every pros seeked customized Buffets by Moennig with his barrel invented with Ralph McLane.We cannot buy perfect conditioned instruments from clarinet manufactures workshops exits,however good companies they are.Somebody should check padding or key works "at least".For example,all new instruments have obvious two defects.i)too stiff springs for smooth finger wors, 2)too much elevation of register corks.Moennig customized clarinet has reverese tapered barrel with exact matching to upper joint.Bell also has a big influence.Some customizers even cut toneholes and use cork pads for upper besides register key.
4)Used by better pros.Strangely,if a clarinet was used by a famous clarinetist,it sounds better!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-02-10 12:03
Hiroshi wrote:
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4)Used by better pros.Strangely,if a clarinet was used by a famous clarinetist,it sounds better!
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Most probably 1-3 were done before you got it, that's all. There's no "magic" in have a pro play it - the "magic" is in <i>why</i> they selected it in the first place!
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-02-10 23:56
Outside of wine terminology, all that vintage really means is that it belongs to the era indicated. For example you could have a "1960s vintage Bundy clarinet." It is not necessarily an indicator of quality. You can have a vintage Bundy or a vintage R-13. There is a substantial difference in these instruments but both can qualify for the term. Occasionally, the seller is trying to convey the concept that it is indeed one of the better crafted items (and this is one of the legitimate meanings of the term but it is not the only meaning). However, in reality most sellers are try to avoid using the terms "old" or "used" for their instrument. They believe that using the word "vintage" will help it sell better.
It has absolutely nothing to do with whether the instrument has ever been modified or improved or owned by a professional or anything of that nature.
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