 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2002-12-11 00:22
Here is the email I recieved about the Vandoren M30 mouthpiece. I figured it would be best to share it as it seems I am not the only one interested.
Mark
Dear Mark,
I apologize for the delay in responding to your email. Here is the information you requested regarding the M30 mouthpiece. We will be updating to the website in the near future.
Opening : 115/100 mm
Facing : Long
Recommended reeds : Traditional numbers 3-3,5-4 and V.12 numbers 3,5-4-4,5
Comment : Designed to provide more flexibility, the M30 incorporates a very long facing and a large tip rail to produce a mouthpiece similar in sonority to the B40, with easier sound production qualities.
If we can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Sincerely yours,
J. D'ADDARIO & COMPANY, INC.
Sandy Neill
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-12-11 03:03
Please do not share emails without the originator's permission, even if you think it's OK. The sender owns the message.
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Author: liquorice
Date: 2002-12-11 07:14
Does anybody know if the M30 is made for American pitch? (Like the M13-15)
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Author: Stéphane
Date: 2002-12-11 09:39
Yes it definitely does as part of the 13 series. I do own a M30 btw, and this is a great mouthpiece, similar in tone colors and easyness to the M15, but with much more sound projection like the B40 and B45.
Stéphane
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Author: Rob
Date: 2002-12-11 10:56
Does anybody know where can I buy this mouthpiece? I checked all major online stores, but none of them have it, and Daddario doesn't sell retail.
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Author: Anne Lenoir
Date: 2002-12-14 13:36
For over 25 years I have been playing on Vandoren 5 RV and 5 RV lyre mouthpieces. After a recent conversation with Jon Manasse, I decided to try the M-30 mouthpiece, and I love it. I sold my 5 RV Lyre to one of my beginning students because I am sure that the M-30 is the mouthpiece for me at this time and probably for a long time. I M-30 gives me more flexibility and a bigger, less shrill, sound. In recent years I had started to have a "biting" problem, and severe reed problems. If I found a reed that responded well, it would feel almost too soft. If I tried a harder reed, it would blow like a board. I didn't feel like I had enough resistance for my embochure to work freely. I switched to the M-30 just before Thanksgiving, and I am very Thankful for the results in my clarinet playing. Already my embochure is strenghening and I am feeling more like practicing and playing harder music. ANNIE
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2010-09-08 18:51
Does anyone know how long is the M30's facing? I can't find any useful information about it. BTW there is no information about the other Vandoren modells too. Any guess?
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-09-08 19:34
The M30 I have has a length of 39+ and a tip of 1.12
As with most mouthpiece models, they aren't all the same even in measurement. I would think it's fair to say they're at least 38 in length and 1.12 in opening. I haven't measured any M30's that were closer than mine in tip opening, but it's possible that there are some that are.
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2010-09-08 20:55
Thanks for the information. It's maybe a silly question but what does it mean that the facing length is 38??? Is it in millimeter or something else?
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2017-09-19 21:15
Let s face it..the M30 is just a very fine design..it allows for alot of tone as well as projection. For me this is the best Vandoren offering..have not tried the lyre version but it is very good from what I have heard. The other aspect of the M30 is that it is easy to adapt reeds to it...this makes it a very nice design..so nice it is being copied by custom makers as well.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2017-09-20 06:50
Talk about raising a thread from the dead! The M30 is a good mouthpiece. It's not my favorite of the Vandorens (I personally feel that the M13/M15 and B40 Lyre are better), but it is a solid, and now proven, design.
But David, you must have known that someone would ask who you're referring to. What custom makers have copied it and what models? Surely a closing comment like that deserves some context.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-09-20 09:34
Sorry folks I have to disagree. It is NOT a good mouthpiece. Yes it was made to tune to 440. But get out your meters. The 10th's are horrible. Softer reeds go flat in the upper register unless you bite a bit. Do you like sore lower lips?
The BD5 is a better mouthpiece. It is shorter, plays better in tune, and is played on by a lot of top symphony pros. We shouldn't allow Vandoren to SHOVE - out of tune mouthpieces in our faces for the American sound. What do they know? What is the American sound? They don't know. I'm not sure if we know. Their concept is WRONG. Same with Buffet. Shoving the American sound in our faces. This is just so wrong at so many levels. Buffet's R13 were the best horn players could buy. Now we have to buy a set up to $21,000 to play correctly. But they won't play in tune, because of the M series mouthpiece.
Hate me if you wish. The M series mouthpieces are not the way to go. The Zinner mouthpieces are not either. In fact the German Zinner's play so much better than the French Zinner's. It's like night and day.
At the ClarinetFest this year everyone sounded the same. No one had that great sound. Upper registers were out of tune and I left the Fest ANGRY. I was really upset hearing only average sounds and dead sounds. So where is the clarinet sound heading? It is up to us to demand giving us only quality gear. The great sounds are here for us to enjoy. There are still a lot of players with beautiful sounds. We must follow their footsteps.
The best production mouthpiece on the market right now are the new Selmer's.
Buy one and you will see what I'm talking about. They cost about $125 or less. They are that good.
If we stop supporting out of tune Vandoren M series mouthpieces made for America, maybe they will fix them. Play one against the new Selmer's and you will see why I am saying this. They also beat the Rico mouthpieces by far. The bores on the Rico mouthpieces are too small and the bores on the Vandoren's are too big. So you get out of tune horns. Then you go out and buy a $10,000 to correct the out of tune mouthpiece. Then you buy another matching A clarinet. So you are now $21,000 in the hole just to try to play that dang Vandoren M series mouthpiece in tune. Oh, you can buy that special $1300 ligature too that will help the reed vibrate better on the out of tune M series mouthpiece that is very close to 1/16" too long in length. This is about the thickness of a penny, or the distance of more than a 65mm barrel and a 66 1/2mm barrel. Hope this makes sense now.
Auditioning for a decent symphony or a band, this could cost you to lose the audition. It's that serious.
However if you are playing for your own enjoyment, a community group, it probably doesn't matter. Just remember you could sound alot better.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-09-20 13:16
"The 10th's are horrible"
12ths, I suppose. ;-)
If Jon Manasse played on an M30 for 10+ years it cannot be that bad.
The regular M30 with a smaller bore and the 13-series with a bigger bore should give plenty of flexibility for tuning.
I don't have the figures available, but I am 95% sure the BD5 only comes with one bore dimension and the only difference between the regular and 13-series is the length. So a couple of tuning rings will turn a regular BD5 into a 13-series. This does not give as much flexibility, as the 12ths in the upper register will not be widened as with a bigger bore mp. If you have an instrument where the upper clarion is flat there is no option left with a BD5 other than finding a bigger bore barrel, which does not help in the same way.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2017-09-20 16:34
"Auditioning for a decent symphony or a band, this could cost you to lose the audition. It's that serious."
Once again, the vast, vast majority of winners of full-time orchestral jobs today are coming from a couple schools and playing Buffet clarinets with Vandoren mouthpieces. They aren't playing M30s, but they are playing Vandorens.
Now, back to the M30 design. David, how about it?
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2017-09-20 17:07
Sounds like there may be some interest in the following measurements I made of an M30 Lyre facing. The pairs of figures are opening in mm and length from extreme tip in mm:
.03 19.6
.05 18.1
.07 16.9
.1 15.9
.15 14.3
.2 13.0
.25 11.9
.3 10.9
.35 10.0
.4 9.1
.5 7.7
.6 6.1
.7 4.9
.8 3.9
.9 2.6
1.0 1.7
1.05 1.1
1.1 0.8
1.15 0
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-09-20 17:43
IMHO, the M30 is a bit too open for most players ... try the M15 or M13-lyre ... I know a number of professionals using these closer facings ...
And, try Pilgerstorfer reeds ... too.
Tom
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Author: Toolaholic
Date: 2017-09-20 19:22
I use a M30 on a Yamaha 650. When called Clark Fobes about his 10k blue bass clarinet mouthpiece, during the conversation I mentioned I use a M30 on soprano clarinet. He told me the M30 is one of the vandoren he
likes.
Post Edited (2017-09-20 19:24)
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2017-09-20 20:07
@TomS:
> IMHO, the M30 is a bit too open for most players
In Britain, many would regard it as too closed. e.g. the B40 with a 1.20 opening is a very common choice here.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-09-21 00:41
Can confirm that the only thing that differs the BD5 regular from the 13-series is a 1.5 mm difference in length. The bore has the same dimensions at the same distances from the tip.
In other words there is no need to buy the BD5 13-series. Just use tuning rings or a longer barrel.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-09-21 03:14
Correction-12's
The winner of the LA Philharmonic plays on the BD-5. As I said the M series mouthpieces are too long. The BD5 is much shorter and actually more open.
WRONG - The BD5 has a much smaller bore. So the M series mouthpieces are too long and have too large of a bore. The BD5 mouthpieces are shorter and have a much smaller bore. Also the distances between the rails are very different. Huge differences. Also the baffle and chamber is different. It's a totally different mouthpiece. It's pretty much like comparing an old Chedeville to an old Selmer HS*. There isn't anything alike between them. Not even the facings.
Hope this helps.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-09-21 06:00)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-09-21 05:37
I believe Jon Manasse, who played an M30 for some time, has now switched to a Vandoren BD5. Bob, have you had much luck getting the BD5s to play well with closer facings? Have you experimented much with that?
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-09-21 06:13
Seabreeze, good question. These are good mouthpieces. I bought only one and the tip opening is about 1.20 or so. I can't play on something this open, but another great player is using this with the Chicago Sym I don't want to say who it is.
It won't play the same if I close it down to 1.07 or so, which I play on as a double lip player. However, when I played it it filled the hall well. I used a 3 strength Steuer reed which have a lot of wood in them. It works. I's also not rubber. I'm not sure what the material is. Now Vandoren has to make the same mouthpiece with a 1.07 tip for the average players and they will have something special. Then they can retire the M series.
Amother issue I have with all of the M series mouthpieces is the rubber shrinks too much, so finding 2 that play the same is like finding 2 twin clarinetists in the same orchestra. The rubber shrinks between 20 to 30 percent. Leave them in the car on a hot day and you will be looking for a new mouthpiece.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-09-21 18:58)
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-09-21 18:03
Attachment: BD5.png (40k)
"WRONG - The BD5 has a much smaller bore."
I was comparing the BD5 regular and the 13-series.
Besides, the M30 and BD5 have about the same bore dimension. When I look at my measurements the BD5 has a bore dimension between the regular M30 and the 13-series M30. I attached a plot. The red line in the middle is a BD5 13 and the others are M30 and M30 Lyre, regular and 13-series.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-09-21 19:21
Hi Johan, this is one of those times when we just won't agree on something. Not a big deal. As players we just go out and play the mouthpieces and pick one that plays more in tune for you and sounds the best at a foot away and at the back of a hall.
Also it's just not the bore as I said above. These are truly 2 totally different mouthpieces. I got into the length, the window distance, the chamber and baffle depths, the materials. So lets say the bore are the exact same, which they are not, everything else is so different and of much more concern.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-09-21 21:42
Bob, if you "disagree" on the bore measurements I gave you, then they are fake measurements and I suggest you present the real ones.
Factual claims are objectively true or false and not a subject of agreement or disagreement. They can be verified and falsified against observations. The guy who claims "The world is flat" gets falsified by photos from space and other observations. The same happened to at least one of your factual claims in this thread.
Opinions, on the other hand, like "The BD5 is far better than the M30", are subjective and can never be verified, only agreed or disagreed upon. Because of their subjective nature, opinions don't interest me very much.
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-09-22 05:19
I just want to remind you guys that no two mouthpieces are the same, even if they are the same model. Particularly the Vandoren M Series, as Bob mentioned, due to the rubber shrinking...
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-09-23 12:59
Ray Zhang, that's why you have to measure a bunch of them. I didn't plot all the three BD5s I have measured but the one I plotted is representative.
If you argue that rubber shrinking is a factor then you have to quantify it. I would be surprised if it is more than a few 100ths of a mm during the mouthpiece's life time. Ebonite is chosen as material just because it does not change over time.
Vandoren's design changes during the life time of a mouthpiece model is definitely a source of variations within a model. For instance, in the plot I attached, one newer 13-series M30 has almost the identical bore as the BD5, while an older one has the bore at the top of the graph, with the end of the bore being cylindrical.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-09-23 17:44
I guess I need a precision "plug type" bore gauge ... it's hard for me to get reliable and confident bore measurements on MPs using my digital calipers, which are good to 1/100 of a mm ... depends on how you hold the gauge ...
It seems to me that the old plain vanilla Vandorens (non-13s) have a smaller bore and also, IMHO (or imagination), play a bit better in tune, with a selected barrel.
The Reserve X0 (441) seems to have the same bore as the top of my R13 (and also the stock Buffet barrel) and this combination works good for me ... but it seems this MP has a little thinner quality of sound than most Vandorens ...
I've just gone to more closed facing in recent years and most of my friends both amateur, student and pros are using something more like an M13 to 5RV facing ... a local music store sells zillions of M13s, Fobes Debuts and Hite Premiers to students and others ... you can't find a B45 or M30 ...
But is does seem that "across the pond", MP facings might be more open ... you'd think the perceived stereotypical loud, raucous, brazen American players would be using the open pieces ... (perhaps we Americans are more restrained and refined than given credit ...)
Tom
Post Edited (2017-09-23 17:45)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-09-23 20:52
TomS wrote:
> But is does seem that "across the pond", MP facings might be
> more open ... you'd think the perceived stereotypical loud,
> raucous, brazen American players would be using the open pieces
> ... (perhaps we Americans are more restrained and refined than
> given credit ...)
>
I'm curious, Tom, which of today's or even recent American players you have in mind as being "stereotypical loud, raucous, brazen..."
Karl
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-09-24 07:03
Johan, I have some amazing tools. If you are ever in the California area I'd be happy to show you the differences in the bores. I can actually correct the bores if you wish; either make them larger or smaller. Yes I can sometimes shrink the bores depending on the materials. Needless to say I have an assortment of reamers to adjust the size of bores. You will have a fun time visiting. The door is always open. You can also write to me offline. I don't want to get into hardcore specs on the Bboard. It would take way too long to write.
I have secrets of course, but in general I'm pretty open about sharing and showing my one of a kind tooling. Mainly because no one could ever duplicate these inventions.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-09-24 11:07
Bob, I cannot interpret your post in a different way than that the bore measurements I posted are incorrect. Why not post your measurements?
The tools for measuring inner diameter are well known. I use the Mitutoyo Borematic series.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-09-24 11:14
TomS,
If John Wayne or Clint Eastwood played the clarinet they wouldn't use an open mouthpiece, soft reeds and vibrato... :-D
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-09-24 18:40
None, actually. Comment was "tongue in cheek" ... maybe not obvious ... apologies if I offended.
Truly, I think the average pro American player is cautious, scientific, refined, pragmatic, poetic, experimental and well trained ...
It's just the American persona, as perceived by some others. Loud, aggressive, rude, innovative, unrefined, ...? That negative perception is fading ... I hope.
Tom
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-09-24 18:44
Wayne would use open facing, modified metal saxophone MP ... with a soft LaVoz reed.
Tom
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2017-09-25 20:44
Last I heard Boris A won the LA phil audition on the m30 vandoren or the D counterpart..not sure where the info i got is from but most people find the BD5 too resistant and tight ... most american facings are quite long..the kaspar have all a slightly longer facing than the Chedevilles for sure!
David Dow
Post Edited (2017-09-25 20:46)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2017-09-25 20:56
I would be interested in hearing the actual measurements that were originally on many of these mouthpieces. I had often been told that Kaspar used a medium length facing. I don't know for sure and many that you find have been altered over the years. Some of the mouthpiece makers/refacers likely have lots of knowledge on this topic.
Post Edited (2017-09-25 20:56)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2017-10-03 22:04
Went to test some m30 facings at a local store for a student..they all played very well..i use a small bore clarinet Yamaha CSG and to me they sound and tune just fine..no problems pitch wise with Steur 3.5 reeds and Vandoren 21s..so sorry folks I just don t buy that is not a good facing. Jon Manasse can't be all wrong!
David Dow
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2017-10-03 22:16
The BD5 Vandoren has a number of things which I feel that i dislike
1 it becomes quite resistant over long practice periods with light reeds
The sound while very nice does not allow for tonal shading.. over the throat area is a big problem
The Vandoren m30 has wide tip rails as well but in this case fleixibility is not a compormised becuase of this ..the BD5 produces a very seductive sound but as a teacher think this is is at a flexibility cost in terms of tonal color. However..maybe the newer models are different..to me the bd5 is a m30 in a a completely different facing alignment....and not to any advantage.
David Dow
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-10-03 23:22
I got this answer from Vandoren 2 years ago when I thought there was something wrong with the BD5 13-series I received because it played so resistant and the model had had such a good reception.
"thank you for writing Vandoren.
there is much chance that the mouthpiece has no defect, but you could return it to us for inspection if you prefer.
Please note that most musicians play #3 Vandoren reeds on it. This mouthpiece is more resistant than an M30 for example, but a little more free blowing than a B40 Lyre."
It definitely plays better (at least for me) with a #3 reed. But as I said, the biggest drawback I see is the lack of tuning flexibility when the 13-series has the same bore as the regular MP and just mimics having a 1.5 mm longer barrel.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-10-03 23:25
I can add that since then I have had the chance to play two other BD5s and they have the same characteristics, so there was nothing wrong with the first copy I received.
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2017-10-04 23:10
Has anyone experienced the same with the BD5? I tried out 3 and eight out of the 10 V12 3.5's were nearly unplayable and extremely stuffy. I had more success with a box of V12 3's, however it seems like all the symphony players on this mouthpiece are playing 3.5's and even 4's!!!
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Author: gatto
Date: 2017-10-06 21:43
I guess it also depends on the (bore of the) clarinet and its resistance. I play the BD5 with V.12 strengths 3.0 and 3.5. On my A clarinet 3.5 mostly tends to be too strong for me. So I feel more relaxed with 3.0.
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