 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Won Kim
Date: 2002-12-09 23:55
Hello,
I did not realize that my topic and bibliography or IB Music paper is due tomorrow!!! I need to compare two completely different type of literature and write a script of about 1500 words. I was thinking about comparing Mozart Concerto and Copland's clarinet concerto. Because I played Copland a lot and am still working on it and Mozart concerto is the mozart concerto (!), I thought it would be a fun research to do. Would you help me with narrowing down the topic? And would you give me some suggestions about bibliography I can use (both online and offline sources would be great!). I have to rely on you once again... Thank you so much!!
-Won
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Author: ken
Date: 2002-12-10 00:32
If you're that pressed for time I just happen to have an "available" copy of a 1,400+ word "History and Analysis" of the Mozart and Copland Concertos I wrote for my Senior Thesis (MUS 445 1W, c.1981). I got an A, of course. <;-D [drjazzz@cox.net] v/r KEN
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Author: John Kelly - Australia
Date: 2002-12-10 01:49
Should not Won Kim do his/her own research entirely? Leaving it to the last minute is no one else's fault and possibly using someone else's work is not quite the right thing either, would have thought. A diary might be a useful purchase as well.
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Author: Won Kim
Date: 2002-12-10 01:55
John Kelly,
I just want to clarify that I am not trying to use someone else's work for this assignment. Only thing I need to do right now is deciding my topic and find some sources. I already decided my topic and would like to get some advice/suggestions from more knowledgable people in this area than me. It is also difficult to find appropriate sources and I was asking where should I look for first. It is definitely my fault leaving it to the last minute but it is a problem of mine. I already have the topic and complete list of bibliography. I wanted to get some feedback before I actually start writing the paper. Thanks
-Won
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-12-10 03:09
Won Kim...There are many well written articles on both the Mozart and Copland Concertos in <i>The Clarinet</i> magazine.
Each article would also have additional appropriate bibliographic references.
Most college music libraries would have the back issues...GBK
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-12-10 03:10
ken wrote:
>
> If you're that pressed for time I just happen to have an
> "available" copy of a 1,400+ word "History and Analysis" of the
> Mozart and Copland Concertos I wrote for my Senior Thesis (MUS
> 445 1W, c.1981). I got an A, of course. <;-D [drjazzz@cox.net]
> v/r KEN
Unbelievable. I can't image someone would encourage this kind of outright cheating on the BBoard.
Pewrhaps it was just a troll? Please, ken, tell me it was ...
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-12-10 03:13
GBK wrote:
>
>
> Most college music libraries would have the back
> issues...GBK
Unfortunately, not all music libraries, even in college, are open 24 hours a day.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-12-10 03:34
"...Unfortunately, not all music libraries, even in college, are open 24 hours a day..."
oops...I must have missed (or found it too unbelievable) the part about the assignment being due TOMORROW.
Now for all you kids out there....what did we learn from this? ...GBK
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Author: jenna
Date: 2002-12-10 03:45
I think it's an end of the semester thing. I'm usually on the ball about getting work done, but I've been slacking off a bit as late, as well as most others I know.
Getting a topic and some sources for tomorrow is a lot easier than writing the full paper for tomorrow... there is always something to be thankful for.
jenna
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Author: Won Kim
Date: 2002-12-10 03:48
AHHH Maybe I shouldn't have posted this!!
Mark - Please don't just assume that I was trying to cheat by using someone else's paper for my assignment. It really bothers me if you do.. Honestly I wasn't trying to cheat but was trying to get some suggestions for the topic and bibliography. I thought it would help me learning this subject since I am actually playing those. As I said I wanted to get some enhancement from more advanced and knowledgable musicians on this board. My paper is not due until march and all I needed was topic sentence and bibliography (and I already finished them all by myself). Please don't think I was trying to just get my homework done. I wanted to more research then I was required to because I wanted to actually learn something out of it, but I didn't know where to start and what sources I should look for. Thanks Ken and GBK for informations! I will certainly try the magazines and college libraries.
-Won
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Author: Won Kim
Date: 2002-12-10 03:55
p.s. and my teacher just notifyied today that the topic and bib. are due tomorrow because we had 2 snow-day. I usually finish my work far before the professional deadline...
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Author: John Kelly - Australia
Date: 2002-12-10 05:44
Won,
Apart from starting late, I don't think you have much to worry about no-one is accusing you of plaigarism. Ken should not have made the offer in the first instance - perhaps he was making light of the whole thing - maybe just showing off because apparently he got an "A".
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-12-10 11:45
Won Kim wrote:
>
> AHHH Maybe I shouldn't have posted this!!
>
> Mark - Please don't just assume that I was trying to cheat by
> using someone else's paper for my assignment.
I didn't. Read it again! Someone offered to send you a paper - that's what got my goat. You were explicit in your questions; no problem there.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-12-10 11:47
John Kelly - Australia wrote:
>
> maybe just showing off because
> apparently he got an "A".
From 1981? Who would care about an A from 1981? In fact, unless this were the only A anyone ever got, who would remember it at all?
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Author: liquorice
Date: 2002-12-10 16:32
I might be too late, but I highly recommend Colin Lawson's book "Mozart Clarinet Concerto"
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Author: ken
Date: 2002-12-10 21:04
Mark Charette wrote: "Unbelievable. I can't image someone would encourage this kind of outright cheating on the BBoard.
Pewrhaps it was just a troll? Please, ken, tell me it was ..."
--Objection your honor! That's clearly leading the witness...LOL! Some of you folks can be simply incorrigible. My offer to Won was genuine and I assure you, honorably intended. However, some people just choose to see “bats instead of butterflies” in others.
--Won, as we previously discussed if you ultimately settle on the Mozart/Copland topic please drop me a line when pen's ready to hit paper, I'd be pleased to forward you any or all of my paper. If you’re uncomfortable with the essay portion I can still ethically send my outline, bibliography and corresponding articles to help get you get organized and hopefully promote a creativity. Fear not, that information by itself is “no more or less” revealing than any other links and/or helps posted and exchanged on this BBoard every day. v/r KEN
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Author: Vic
Date: 2002-12-10 21:38
Ken, I'm terribly disappointed in your offer. Based on what Won Kim has said, I'm reasonably certain he won't take advantage of it. I hope not. As an adjunct university professor, I see this happen with alarming frequency. I know there are many educators on this board who feel the same way. To actively encourage plagiarism, as you're doing, does a disservice to Won Kim and all honorable scholars. Some bibliographic suggestions I see as no problem, but to offer your paper itself is just plain unethical.
Vic
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Author: liquorice
Date: 2002-12-10 22:37
I don't see the difference between Won Kim consulting Ken's paper or consulting other sources. Isn't Ken's paper just another source? Would it be more "ethical" is Ken had had it published? As long as Won Kim mentions it in his bibliography...
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-12-11 03:10
liquorice wrote:
>
> I don't see the difference between Won Kim consulting
> Ken's paper or consulting other sources. Isn't Ken's paper just
> another source? Would it be more "ethical" is Ken had had it
> published? As long as Won Kim mentions it in his
> bibliography...
Using Ken's paper as one of many references is fine. Offering it as the complete basis is not.
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Author: ken
Date: 2002-12-11 04:05
Vic, being a college professor I concede you're closer to student plagiarism issues than I. I've been out of college a lot of years; from what I've read, heard and seen on TV it's a serious problem and getting worse. I'm sure you're also familiar with those popular "buy a degree" websites that sell term papers by the page. Putting things in perspective, I'd argue the point that commercial sources such as these and old standby short cuts like Cliff Notes and even used/previously marked text books potentially contribute more to collegiate plagiarism than some guy on a clarinet BBoard giving away an errant, dust-filled, 22-year old term paper. When offering "adults" sensitive information I precede on the assumption they are generally honest, responsible and will exercise self-integrity and restraint. I personally don't choose to automatically think the worst of people and arbitrarily judge them as inherently crooked, divisive or opportunistic ... unless of course, they prove to me otherwise.
In this case, I offered my paper to someone who I feel is a devoted student/clarinetist in need. I also maintain adults are (or should be) charged with censoring "themselves" and apply their own set of values. If they don't, they are solely accountable for their actions and pay the price. As for the paper, I penned it, it's my property, it isn't copyrighted or published and I'm not breaking any law in sharing my work. Whether I choose to frame it prominently over my fireplace or use it in the bathroom, I'm still at liberty to do so. Most respectfully, KEN
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-12-11 10:54
ken wrote:
> In this case, I offered my paper to someone who I feel is a
> devoted student/clarinetist in need.
Next time, show us how smart you are and offer it privately. Offering your own private research to a college student in dire need is suspect at best.
BTW - your paper is copyrighted, just not registered.
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Author: graham
Date: 2002-12-11 12:56
Ken never suggested plagiarism. I think we should believe him when he said that was not in his mind. Won says he was not interested in plagiarism. I think we should accept that. But the difference between Ken's offering and the other suggested texts and sources is that it can easily be plagiarised, whereas the others need some adapting and therefore are not so easily copied.
To those who say plagiarism (or getting someone else to write your papers etc.) is a real problem in the educational system, I suggest they look at the system. There will always be cheats, and the problem is that a system that encourages cheats makes too many people believe that everyone is out to cheat. That is why course work assessment does not work as a system. Traditional three hour closed book exams, for all their frailties, obviates this key difficulty.
Had Ken sent Won the same message privately, then I think there could have been a fair suspicion of his motives, (though we would have been none the wiser), but in that he chose to be overt, then I doubt he was badly motivated.
Finally, I think it was right for MC to point out that plagiarism is wrong and nothing said on the BB should encourage it. As a general point that is fine, but I don't think there was the evidence that it was being deliberately encouraged in this case.
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Author: Vic
Date: 2002-12-11 14:49
Graham, your points are well made. I still maintain, however, that Ken's first response was a subtle, "nod, nod - wink, wink" offer of a paper to use in its entirety. At least that's how it came across. Admittedly, I may be overly sensitive to this issue, since I'm currently involved in official proceedings concerning the alleged academic dishonesty of one of my graduate students. Mark was right when he said: "Offering your own private research to a college student in dire need is suspect at best."
Ken, you may have had good intentions, and if I misread them, I apologize. Again, I plead over-sensitivity. Yes, the problem is getting worse, but to argue that there are websites selling term papers and other avenues available to pursue scholastic dishonesty doesn't make a good argument. You might as well say, "Gosh, your honor, there were guys out there with Uzis and AK47s robbing banks, so I figured it would be okay to take my little .38 and knock over that convenience store on the corner."
Now, can we please get back to debating Vandoren vs. Gonzalez and Buffet vs. everything else? Mark's probably going to shut us down on this one anyway before long.
…Vic
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Author: ken
Date: 2002-12-11 19:55
Vic, I agree the topic is beginning to languish and we should take it upon ourselves to bag it. And, Graham rightly states that even the hint of plagiarism (real or implied) is not to be condoned on the BBoard or for that matter, anywhere in the industry. Thanks to all for their viewpoints and suggestions ... I will take it under advisement. v/r KEN
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Author: Vic
Date: 2002-12-11 20:05
Thanks, Ken. Could have been worse, you know - we could have discussed the merits of getting our tongues pierced.
Gosh, I'm already sorry that I brought that one up again.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-12-11 20:14
Vic said: "...we could have discussed the merits of getting our tongues pierced..."
Now <b>that</b> was an interesting thread. We even had photos!
Perhaps we should discuss it again...
Then again, perhaps not ...GBK
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