 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bryan
Date: 2002-12-07 14:20
I'm in the middle of dissecting an old clarinet, and measuring the various parts. I was surprised to find that the springs were not all of the same diameter (it has round, not needle springs)--there are at least two sizes, varying by as much as two tenths of a millimeter, so I don't think it's a measuring error. Is this normal? Should they be replaced with springs all the same size?
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2002-12-07 16:12
Bryan,
Needle/round springs come in diameters of .018" to .062". Clarinets use .018" to .032" depending on the particular sprung key and brand of clarinet. Yes, they should be replaced with the same diameter or the "key action" will be different from the original. Sometimes we vary form the original a little if we need a lighter or slightly heavier touch, but for the most part we change springs with like springs. It is impossible to change all the springs with the same diameter unless you were to drill new pilot holes in the posts, but you do not want to do that anyway.
jbutler
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2002-12-08 05:36
Is there a source for all of the mm between .18 & .32? I bought a dozen each of the sizes stocked by Ferrees and occasionally I find that I am replacing a spring in one of the missing sizes.
I did go to an model/hobby shop and buy a nifty set of drill bits from, I think, .10 to .33 (or something like that). Indeed, it is possible to carefully drill the existing hole to get the next size spring. I bought be bits because I had a clarinet where someone soldered the post in a way that covered the existing hole. I got the replacement hole close, but ended up having to file the underside of a key to get it to travel right over the slightly misplaced key. Well, I'm not a pro, like some people on this list.
My wife took the tiniest drill bit and drilled several holes into the dining room table. I was stunned. Then she challenged me to find one of the holes. I couldn't. However, we have two kids and I can find other nicks & gouges, etc.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-12-08 08:16
Bryan, are you taking all the springs out? If so, why? If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Jim, are you sure that post didn't have a broken spring stump in the hole. I cannot think of much reason for soldering a clarinet post, but spring stumps are common, and removable.
If you have the whole Ferree range then you just choose the largest spring that goes through the original hole, unless there is a reason to change, say for example somebody has inappropriately drill an oversized hole, or the spring is too weak to close a pad reliably, even though the pad is perfectly seated.
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Author: Hank
Date: 2002-12-08 13:37
Hi,
I'd like to hear more about:
My wife took the tiniest drill bit and drilled several holes into the dining room table. I was stunned. Then she challenged me to find one of the holes.
Does your wife usually do things like this and what prompted her to do such a thing?
Anxiously waiting for an answer!
Hank
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2002-12-08 15:33
Gordon:
First, remember that I work on metal clarinets. Yes, the whole spring was in place, but it had been heated enough that the metal had entirely lost its temper. (technical talk for "it no longer gave a twang") Unfortunately, the previous repairer did not use silver solder but instead used hardware store solder. (looks like 40/60) I am guessing they weren't confident about it holding, so they applied enough solder to turn the post into a volcano shape. I couldn't get the old spring out without sweating off all of the solder and I didn't think that was a good idea. (I subsequently took it to a pro who has made keys, unsoldered/resoldered posts, etc, and who I trust completely. He said that he wouldn't touch the solder unless necessary because there was a close by ornamental ring on the body of this metal clarinet that had some cracks and that might pop off.) Anyway, I knew that I would not be able to drill out the spring. The spring was still harder than the post, so the drill bit would wander right off of it. So I guessed at drilling a hole right next to it, and missed. Oh well, it does play and the little bit of extra pressure needed on the l.h. pinkie for C# isn't the horn's worst sin, unfortunately.
I very seldom use a larger spring. Recently, it was because I am convinced that the spring that came out was a size between what I had. It was the G#/D# right hand pinkie key which always seems to be a problem in older horns. I often finish a horn and find that pad blowing off. Even with the slightly larger spring, I wouldn't mind a little more tension. I can also recall an instance where I must have been the fourth person putting in a spring, and so many flattened ends had been pushed in that the right size spring just wouldn't hold. Remember, I am not all that good at this.
HanK:
Usually I am the destructive one in the family. My wife picked up the pin vice and the tiniest bit, which was hardly bigger than a hair. She simply didn't believe it could actually drill wood, much less metal, so she decided to test it. You dining room table is cherry, but after 20 years and two teen aged boys, it could stand some work. (I now know that it was stained, in part, to hide a few places where they used some sort of filler that has since popped out. If you want the best quality wood & craftsmenship, learn to like unstained wood. I wonder if this is true for clarinets, too.)
This was like when my dad (the judge) painted a green strip on a neighborhood dog. I simply couldn't believe it was happening. The moon & stars must have been lined up just right. I could see the bit going into the wood I could see this very fine bit of wood coming out of the hole, but I couldn't find the hole. In fact, she drilled three holes. I have to admit, part of the fun of oversizing a spring is getting to use the drill.
To my knowledge, my dad only ever painted one dog. I think it was a collie. Exterior latex house paint. The dog looked like he had leaned against a recently painted gate post. I don't think anyone ever noticed that the dog matched our gutters.
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Author: Hank
Date: 2002-12-08 16:09
Jim,
An incredible story of domestic handicraft; Your wife is truly an unusual women.
I'd hate to get in her way is she ever gets her hands on a large brace and bit!
Hank
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Author: Bryan
Date: 2002-12-08 16:49
Gordon, I haven't taken the springs out yet--they're not in good condition (the flat springs are 100% rust). I was surprised since two different spring sizes implies that not all the posts have the same diameter hole--I didn't expect that to be the case. Also, is it okay to replace round springs with needle springs? I'm not worried about matching the original action--there's no way to know what that is!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-12-09 03:59
Jim wrote "It was the G#/D# right hand pinkie key which always seems to be a problem in older horns. I often finish a horn and find that pad blowing off."
Are you hitching the spring to the cradle BEFORE you insert the pivot rod. For most clarinets, even the action of moving the spring around the edge of its cradle (for this spring) with the hinge assembled, is enough to de-tension the spring.
Bryan: Most instruments have at LEAST two thicknesses of spring. The characteristics of a spring, which determines the 'feel' of the action of the key, include material, diameter, and especially the ratio of diameter to length. This last one is a tricky one because length is determined by quite a few parameters, especially spacing between posts. A spring that is too stiff (determined by material and diameter) for its length, will give a most unsatisfactory feel to the action, i.e. during the travel of a key the force needed to move it will INCREASE DRAMATICALLY.
Good design of the springs is, then, quite a complicated issue, superbly done on professional oboes - because it has to be! - but done poorly by many manufacturers of other instruments.
Often a spring is barely doing what is required of it. Perhaps it is operating very close to its elastic limit (when it distorts permanently) and cannot have its tension increased by bending.
In a few cases the narrowing of a steel, tapered needle spring is part of the design equation, but often not.
The non-tapered springs are usually made form stainless steel, but also phosphor bronze, brass, and on flutes especially, cupronickel, silver, gold, white gold.
Changing to a different metal may alter the spring characteristics dramatically. For some keys this does not matter a lot, but for the ones where some design parameters are already stretched to barely acceptable extremes, changing material can make a spring's action quite unacceptable.
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2002-12-09 04:26
Gordon wrote
"Are you hitching the spring to the cradle BEFORE you insert the pivot rod.
For most clarinets, even the action of moving the spring around the edge of
its cradle (for this spring) with the hinge assembled, is enough to
de-tension the spring. "
When I think of it. I could save some time if I did this every time rather than only when I discover a problem. I also sometimes do this with the C#/G# (if it is not articulated). Thinking about it, I guess I should do this for any short spring. I hope I would have drawn the connection sooner or later, but I expect that you have saved me some work. Thanks
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-12-09 10:02
Yes, it is important for almost all short springs, and often F#/C# too. Move the key as far as it will go towards the spring, hitch up the spring (No 10 crotchet hook is very useful for those springs that must be pulled), then move the key back ONLY AS FAR AS NECESSARY to get the pivot rod through the tube.
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Author: Bryan
Date: 2002-12-09 13:11
Gordon, thanks for that clear and thorough explanation.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-12-09 14:58
Thanks all for a most informative exchange.....including humour..
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