 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: larryb
Date: 2002-11-25 14:52
Spent Saturday afternoon at Avery Fischer Hall in New York City with Philharmonic program of Dvorak Serenade and Brahms 4.
The concert was generally well done - despite a major squeak during the slow movement clarinet solo of the Dvorak.
What annoyed me most was to be found in the program notes. All the players in the Dvorak had their bios printed in the program. Only one of them (alas, a clarinetist) had the nerve to include a product placement for his instrument (Buffet, naturally). And this clarinetist is also a hired Boosey Hawkes "clinician."
Is it me, or is this embarassingly tacky? Why is it that the clarinet has become another insecure, market driven consumer commodity? We don't learn what brand of bassoon or oboe is being played. It's not as if he's playing a vintage clarinet, like some of those three hundred year old violins or cellos.
On the other hand, given that his Buffet played a ruinous clinker during one of the most sublime moments in music, it's good to knownow which clarinet brand to avoid.
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Author: ben
Date: 2002-11-25 15:18
I have heard the principals or assistant principals of many major orchestra squeak at some point (although of course very rarely). One was playing a leblanc, one a buffet, one a yamaha and one a selmer. At that level (or perhaps any level) it has nothing to do with the type of clarinet. His buffet (or selmer or whatever) did not "play...a runious clicker," he did and if it really was runious for you, you are missing out; If you are unable to enjoy the concert because of one unfortunate squeak from an otherwise amazing clarinet player, that is too bad for you. Squeaks happen and so does great music; take your pick about which you want to remember.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2002-11-25 15:28
I sort of agree with you (althoughI wonder why we are able to exchange professionally made products that are flawed, but have no choice but to pay full price for flawed live music)
My point though is this: why is there product placement of clarinet brands (and only clarinet brands) in concert programs? And if a clarinetist is going to commercialize the program, shouldn't we then judge his brand of equipment based on his flawed performance?
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Author: anonymous
Date: 2002-11-25 15:34
Several years ago I heard a fantastic player with a major orchestra do a recital with a Brahms sonata on the program...due to some reed issues this person had a handful of major squeaks.
Everyone felt bad for him but what he had done musically was so amazing that we were able to overlook the problems he had had, and recognize that 1) stuff happens to *everyone*, even world-reknowned players and 2) you look at the overall effect not small snapshots of the piece.
And no, I don't think it's tacky that they recognize the brand they play - they are endorsed (paid) to do so, just like athletes do with their shoes. Unnecessary perhaps, but not tacky on the part of the musician.
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2002-11-25 15:46
What exactly do you mean when you speak of "product placement" in the bio? Is it simply the inclusion of what make of instrument the performer plays? or was it gratuitous advertising (which I highly doubt would be part of a major symphony program).
Frnakly, I don't see the problem in that, should that be the case. How many times, after all, have you seen each and every instrument described, in great detail (maker, year, color, etc.) for string players. Granted, you're probably dealing with more history than in your typical woodwind instrument (especially clarinet), but why should there be a distinction drawn for that?
As far as the squeak is concerned.....well.....get a life! If it disturbed you that much to make note of it, perhaps you should have asked for a refund?
And should you now avoid that make of clarinet because of that -- well, that's fine with me. Maybe that'll be the instrument that I end up with someday.
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Author: ben
Date: 2002-11-25 15:58
That's the excitement of live music. The only way of getting a 100% perfect performance is in a recording. You never know what is going to happen. That is the thrill of a live performance. Otherwise, why go to a concert hall? As for the ad in the program, yes, he might have been the only one ad that day, but there are many people who do point out the kind of instrument they play. In the Boston Symphony, in every program, it is noted that Malcolm Lowe, the concertmaster, plays on a certain violin. Yes, it is an antique instrument, but is that going to influence what we think of a performance? Only if we are violinists are we going to say "That's interesting" or "That explains that sound" or "if I had that instrument... (or whatever violinists say.. i have no idea (thank goodness)). As a clarinetist, at least to me, it's interesting to find out what so and so plays on (extra information can't hurt) even if it doesn't work for me. If he wants to let everybody know he plays buffet and he's making a little on the side, that's his perogative and it is so expensive to live in New York anyway! that it seems all right to me. If he was playing something else besides buffet in the orchestra, then that's another story, but to let people know what he plays, if he likes it, strikes me as information that is at, the very least, interesting.
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2002-11-25 16:06
BTW, most pros -- yes, even those in major symphonies -- do not get financial consideration to play a certain brand of instrument, etc.
Some do, most don't.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2002-11-25 16:40
Very interesting and thoughtful responses.
Yes, I appreciate that "live" music cannot be perfect. But maybe you aren't familiar with the Dvorak wind serenade to recognize that the increadibly loud and disruptive squawk at the high point of one of the most exposed and beautiful passages in clarinet literature did in fact ruin the piece. And, judging by the clarinetis'ts visible agony and pitiful body language, he knew it too. Sure - blow your great moment and then check the barrel - there's the problem all right!
This was not a run of the mill chirp - be done and move on. I believe this flaw can only have been the result of lack of concentration and preparation. Perhaps we were only a matinee audience and didn't deserve better.
Bottom line - Buffet clarinets just aren't reliable.
Maybe I can't ask for money back, but I know where not to put it in the future.
By the way, the clarinetist is question was not Stanley Drucker - he played beautifully in the Brahms 4.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-11-25 16:45
What is wrong with some posters on this Board? Instead of staying on the subject they start attacking the author. Every body has their own opinion and expectations. Is something wrong with that?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-11-25 16:47
larryb wrote:
>
>
> But
> maybe you aren't familiar with the Dvorak wind serenade to
> recognize that the increadibly loud and disruptive squawk at
> the high point of one of the most exposed and beautiful
> passages in clarinet literature did in fact ruin the piece.
Oh, I think Larry Liberson is well familiar with that piece. As to lack of preparation and concentration - somehow I don't think you've ever had the opportunity to "blow it" in front of a large audience. I have. It has nothing to do with "lack of preparation and concentration" at a professional level. I don't think you have a clue here.
> Bottom line - Buffet clarinets just aren't reliable.
Excuse me. What does the clarinet have to do with a reed/mouthpiece problem?
> Maybe I can't ask for money back, but I know where not to put
> it in the future.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-11-25 16:48
Vytas wrote:
>
> What is wrong with some posters on this Board? Instead of
> staying on the subject they start attacking the author.
What "attack"? Disagreements with the poster?
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-11-25 16:52
The Arts have no objection to being patronized. Artists have no objection to accepting money. Look through the Lincoln Center program. More than half of it is devoted to listing donors.
If you look closely at any theater program, you'll see "All products used for the promotion of sanitation in this theater are supplied by the Creco Corporation." For that, they get free cleaning products, and it's a great bargain.
If Stanley Drucker or Michael Nuccio is a "Buffet Artist," there's nothing wrong with his listing it in his bio. They don't give that title to patzers, and if he gets a free instrument out of it, so what? He's earned it.
Artur Schnabel, Alfred Cortot and Arthur Rubinstein are three of my favorite pianists. They all sometimes dropped more notes under the piano than they got right, and it doesn't make a bit of difference. With the Dvorak, it's not even a glass being half full or half empty. It's complaining about a full glass because one drop spilled.
Ken Shaw
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Author: larryb
Date: 2002-11-25 17:04
Mark,
If a guy is going to promote a brand of clarinet, then I have a right to judge his instrument by the quality of his playing. How do I know his squawk was not the result of sloppy, mass produced Buffet workmanship? All I know, is that the guy where's the Buffet logo on his uniform, and he sucked big time that afternoon.
Do you think I'd buy Latrell Sprewell's brand of sneakers?
PS - who the hell is Larry Liberson?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-11-25 17:10
larryb wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> If a guy is going to promote a brand of clarinet, then I have a
> right to judge his instrument by the quality of his playing.
> How do I know his squawk was not the result of sloppy, mass
> produced Buffet workmanship? All I know, is that the guy
> where's the Buffet logo on his uniform, and he sucked big time
> that afternoon.
That's cool. Don;t buy a Rossi - I've heard Luis drop some clinkers. Or a Leblanc - Eddie Daniels has been known to squawk a few times in his career. Even Yamahas have been known to have troubles on certain days.
Kinds of narrows things down. Pretty soon you just may as well hang it up, right?
> Do you think I'd buy Latrell Sprewell's brand of sneakers?
I don't blame Converse for Sprewell being an idiot. I also don't blame Converse for my lack of basketball prowess.
I blame my mother's "short gene".
> PS - who the hell is Larry Liberson?
Someone who makes a pretty good living playing clarinet full-time.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2002-11-25 17:22
Mark,
You don't get my point (maybe you can't). Perhaps capitalization will help: IF SOMEBODY IS GOING TO COMMERCIALIZE HIS ART THROUGH CRASS PRODUCT PLACEMENT, THEN HE AND HIS PRODUCT SHOULD BE TREATED AS COMMERCIAL PRODUCTS. IF THEY PRODUCE A FLAWED PRODUCT/PERFORMANCE, DON'T BUY'EM.
Except for trade magazines and fairs, where such advertisement is to be expected, I've never before seen that kind of product placement in a concert program. We're not talking about a 400 year old stradivarius - we're talking about a mass produced, $2000 Buffet, a subsidiary of Boosey&Hawkes Corporation, and whatever larger global conglomerate happens to own them at the moment. If such commercialization of a concert is the norm now, then we've lowered our standards to crap. Why not have him wear a Buffet/Boosey hat and matching T shirt?
All I've seen so far in response is knee-jerk circle-the-wagons, close-the-ranks, protect the honor of the guild incestuous nonsense.
Of course, Larry Liberson would defend a bad performance by a fellow clarinetist - he depends on people overlooking the flaws to make a living.
Love this board!
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Author: Eileen
Date: 2002-11-25 17:40
Squeaks happen to the best. But the gratuitous product placement in a setting where no one else is shilling a product does seem in questionable taste.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, I have on occasion seen rock bands at small clubs playing guitars with conspicuously dangling price tags from Guitar Center. A very effective satirization of corporate product placement/music business. (Obviously the expensive guitar was going to be returned to the store after the gig!)
Maybe instead of mentioning Buffet in the program, the clarinetist should cut to the chase and hang a huge price tag from the bell.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2002-11-25 18:13
I think that Larry Lieberson is speaking based on knowing how hard it is to go out day after day and playing at a high level and meeting the expectations of all including the audience, conductors and colleagues, to say nothing about your own expectations. I think many out there have unreal expectations, based on recordings, that mistakes don't get made. Any of the best still have it happen, Drucker or Combs included, even after all of these years. I have heard mistakes, squeaks, memory slips, by some of the best. If anything, it makes me realize they they are only human. Sure, those things happen less often to the top players, but even Tiger Woods has an off day or moment. To say that it is because it is due to inferior equipment is ridiculous. That is like saying when the great figure skaters fall in the Olympics, it is because the skates are at fault. I am sure the Philharmonic players instruments are better than most of us could hope for. Unfortunately, squeaks are just one of the problems with the clarinet, just like clams in horn playing.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-11-25 18:20
larryb wrote:
>
> Except for trade magazines and fairs, where such advertisement
> is to be expected, I've never before seen that kind of product
> placement in a concert program.
Then you haven't gone to all that many concerts where a solist is involved. I've been to enough where the program lists on the bio "xxxxxx is a yyyyy artist." That's not, as you yelled, "CRASS PRODUCT PLACEMENT" to me. I've read too many bios to even care. The bios are placed in a program as provided by the artist.
> If such commercialization of a concert is the norm
> now, then we've lowered our standards to crap. Why not have
> him wear a Buffet/Boosey hat and matching T shirt?
>
> All I've seen so far in response is knee-jerk
> circle-the-wagons, close-the-ranks, protect the honor of the
> guild incestuous nonsense.
Well, that's a ton of BS, IMNSHO.
> Of course, Larry Liberson would defend a bad performance by a
> fellow clarinetist - he depends on people overlooking the flaws
> to make a living.
Hehehehe. That's good. What do <b>you</b> do for a living so I can take cracks at it, from the sublime to the ridiculous?
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Author: larryb
Date: 2002-11-25 18:21
Ed,
I agree!
Wasn't it Reginald Kell who said that if you never squeak, you're playing too timidly?
My objection (see previous posts) was really about the commercialization of the program - once you cross that line, you better make sure you don't screw up.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2002-11-25 18:24
Mark,
You go to too many ICA annual conference concerts.
I'll tell you what I do for a living (maybe), if you tell me what you do.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-11-25 18:26
larryb wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> You go to too many ICA annual conference concerts.
Nope. I go to a lot of concerts, very few ICA ones. I guess you can make up anything you want in your mind.
> I'll tell you what I do for a living (maybe), if you tell me
> what you do.
I work on computers for a living. Next question?
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Author: larryb
Date: 2002-11-25 18:29
"I work on computers for a living" ? That's it? That's awfully vague.
I work in an office.
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Author: Royce
Date: 2002-11-25 18:32
Mark,
This whole thread is sad and a bit surreal. It also bears a striking resemblance to a Usenet "troll". In the anarchy of unmoderated Usenet newsgroups, we just try to ignore 'em. I hope I can follow my own advice
Royce
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-11-25 18:42
Royce wrote:
>
> Mark,
> It also bears a
> striking resemblance to a Usenet "troll". In the anarchy of
> unmoderated Usenet newsgroups, we just try to ignore 'em.
You're right, but "larryb" posts too often to consider it a troll. I've been using the newsgroups for the last 15 years or so ...
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2002-11-25 18:45
Hi:
I play over 400 concerts a year. Some good, some not so good. I make a pretty good living just playing the clarinet and teaching some talented and interesting students. It's a great life!
I receive no money endorsements from any manufacturers and have never received a free instrument. My bio appears in programs all the time and I never mention the brand names of any of my equipment. When asked, I proudly tell the brand names, but hope that I won't prevent someone from buying that product because they didn't like me or the way I played that night.
I work with Stanley and Mark quite often, and I if I could get my hands on either of their clarinets, I'd steal them in a minute! Both guys play great, and have really good horns.
But buy whatever brand you like, just continue to enjoy playing the clarinet. It's a great life!
Good luck,
JJM
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2002-11-25 19:10
One thing that I think has been overlooked is that Buffett may have helped finance the concert. Whereas I SERIOUSLY doubt Boosey and Hawkes did this for the particular concert you went to, I have been to many masterclasses and concerts that specific instrument makers have financed. Do I argue and say that I don't want to see that, or do I deal with it knowing that I have seen and met a worldclass musician because some instrument maker funded it? I think that we need to accept the fact that advertising is what keeps us able to see such concerts. I attend MET performances often. Do you know how many pages of ads I have to go through before I see anything regarding the evenings performance? MANY! Without companies donating their money for advertsing, you may not get to hear the concerts you hear due to lack of funding! I realize this is the grand scope of the little scope you experienced. But, if you are going to attack advertising, you must look at it from the ENTIRE perspective. In a recent playbill for the Cincinnati Symphony it said that Jarvi drove a Buick. I don't really care. But I know that thanks to Buick I was able to see the concert!
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2002-11-25 19:29
Larryb:
You seem to expect perfection from an art. The fact of the matter is that whomever the artist is he's human. And humans have good and bad days. To connect the artist having a bad moment with his instrument's maker and then blaming the instrument's maker for that mistake is IMHO rather short sighted.
I can understand your distaste for "bad advertising". My recommendation is to not buy a Buffet, or write the company a letter explaining to them how distasteful you found their ad. But don't take it out on the musician who probably hurt a lot more than you did from his squeek.
MOO,
Matt
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Author: nzdonald
Date: 2002-11-25 20:27
i sqeaked 4 times (all little chirps, 2 of them in the same bar) on Saturday night in a concerto performance on stage with a full orchestra
none of the string players noticed
the audience went nuts at the end and hauled me back on stage 3 times (heh heh!!!!)
two arts critics who normally give me good reviews were a bit guarded, maybe for this reason, not sure.
my mother (hardest critic) only notice 2 of the 4, they were all pretty small and caused by me biting too hard on the reed through tension.
but the bottom line is, i'm a bit annoyed with my playing (i wanted a good recording from the gig to use as a demo) but i don't "blame my instrument"
in fact
i'm not going to tell you what brand i was playing, so there!
donald
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Author: Meighan Stoops
Date: 2002-11-25 20:43
"Of course, Larry Liberson would defend a bad performance by a fellow clarinetist - he depends on people overlooking the flaws to make a living."
Who the hell does this guy think he is?!?!?
Wow....gotta love it.
"Perhaps we were only a matinee audience and didn't deserve better."
OH PULEEZE! Perhaps the capitals make an impression.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-11-25 21:23
There is a reason that the clarinetists of the New York Philharmonic, or any other top tier orchestra, are sitting where they are, and it doesn't have the slightest thing to do with the equipment they use (or don't use), or the number of squeeks they have in their career. They earned their position through intense dedication, training and hard work - nothing less. They are the elite 1% - give them the respect they deserve.
The argument that it was "only a matinee, and we didn't deserve better" is as ridiculous as blaming your favorite baseball player for having a bad game because it was only the first game of a double header.
Hey, let them "advertise" all they want. The average consumer encounters 300 product placements or commercials each day. If you find it objectionable, change the channel or turn the page...GBK
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2002-11-25 21:27
I squeaked in last Saturday night's R. Strauss' Zarathustra.
Tacky at the Chicago Symphony Orchestra,
Gregory Smith
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Author: Paul
Date: 2002-11-25 21:33
To the writer of the orginal post. We do "get" your point. But your point is silly. Paul
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Author: Jean
Date: 2002-11-25 21:43
I admit to squeaking and guess what NONE of my teachers ever gets after me for it. As a matter of fact if I apologize for doing so they tell me it shows I am giving my all.
A squeak can be caused by a lot of things. Not covering a hole completely is one which comes to mind. I recently switched to a harder reed at the request of my teacher and find myself squeaking. I have also made a number of playing changes and squeak a lot more than I used to. Do I feel badly...heck no. I am learning. It has been written Benny Goodman played scales on the day he died. Who knows why the perfomer in quesiton squeaked. Geez, get over it....I'll bet he has.
As far as product placement is concerned if you take a look in the clarinet magazine for winners of competitions it is listed the brand of clarinet, reed, ligature, and mouthpiece the winners played on. I am not going to switch just because that is what they played on. It has taken me years to come up with a combination I like. However, if my instructor wants me to try a harder reed I am willing to give it a whirl. And aside from the temporary condition of squeaking I am happier than ever with my sound.
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Author: David
Date: 2002-11-25 21:50
FAQ. What does Mr (or Ms) X play? There in the bayou for free. Saved you a trip to Google, or more likely asking others.
If the chap had played it flawlessly, would you have rushed out and bought one?
Everyone squeaks at some time or other. If you're a pro, you're more statistically doomed (and brave enough) to do it in public.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-11-25 22:53
Oh goodie! It's an argument I'm not involved in/started for once!
All humor aside, I've squeaked a few times in performances, but it's never so bad; the principal oboe gives you a greasy look, the conductor doesn't notice, you joke with the 2nd clarinet after the performance at the pub. It's all good.
In fact, I *expect* to make some terrible noises at my upcoming audition, because nothing's perfect, nobody's perfect, and flaws are a part of life. If there were no flaws, do you think I'd be auditioning for college and not trying to steal Mr. Comb's position?!
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Author: anonymous
Date: 2002-11-25 23:10
All humor aside, I've squeaked a few times in performances, but it's never so bad; the principal oboe gives you a greasy look, the conductor doesn't notice, you joke with the 2nd clarinet after the performance at the pub. It's all good.
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Author: anonymous
Date: 2002-11-25 23:12
whoops sorry about that last post:
Morrigan: that was hilarious!!! And so totally true!
Guess the original poster just doesn't get the point (and the beauty and energy!) of a live performance.
Perhaps it should only be well-engineered CD's for this person from now on!!
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Author: Micaela
Date: 2002-11-25 23:23
Larry- did you notive the large group of high school students in the back of the hall? That was my youth orchestra on our field trip. (We were also the squatters standing around the hall for the next three hours when our bus failed to show up.) I was sitting next to one of the other clarinetists and we both noticed that squeak in the Dvorak but we thought the clarinets were great all the rest of the time. I thought he made a good recovery. Just one squeak doesn't mean he can't play circles around me (and, hey, I squeak too- we all do).
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2002-11-26 00:05
Interesting thread. I am amazed at the number of people who respond to their own posts. Amusing, in a different sort of way, I suppose.
I wish I were as accomplished a clarinetist to perform with the Philharmonic, squeak or not. As far as the endorsements, buy what you want. Right now I can't find a decent reed to respond. The humidty has dropped down to the 40% level here in Houston which is low for this area. My normally good playing reeds sound awful. Perhaps there are factors other than mechanical or design problems of the performer's clairnet.
jbutler
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-11-26 01:19
ben, re your first post in this thread: how gratifying to know that someone is keeping score.
Regards,
John
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Author: ben
Date: 2002-11-26 02:12
I wasn't intending to "keep score", I have been lucky to have heard a whole bunch of great orchestras live and I know what some of the clarinetists play, as do many people on this board. The whole point is that it wasn't the clarinet brand that caused the squeak, but the player (once again, not that it doesn't happen to just about everybody on occassion).
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Author: ben
Date: 2002-11-26 02:14
I wasn't intending to "keep score", I have been lucky to have heard a whole bunch of great orchestras live and I know what some of the clarinetists play, as do many people on this board. The whole point is that it wasn't the clarinet brand that caused the squeak, but the player (once again, not that it doesn't happen to just about everybody on occasion).
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2002-11-26 02:33
The Gospel According to larryb:
“Yes, I appreciate that "live" music cannot be perfect. But maybe you aren't familiar with the Dvorak wind serenade to recognize that the increadibly loud and disruptive squawk at the high point of one of the most exposed and beautiful passages in clarinet literature did in fact ruin the piece.”
Yes, I am familiar with the piece. Odds are that I’ve performed the piece more often than you have listened to it.
“And, judging by the clarinetis'ts visible agony and pitiful body language, he knew it too. Sure - blow your great moment and then check the barrel - there's the problem all right!”
Wow...you were sitting that close, were you? I’m sure that the player was not happy with what had happened. Who would be, under those circumstances? But tell me why looking at the instrument and its component parts would be an inappropriate response? Frankly, one could easily take a quick look to check the status of the reed, look for a loose pad or any one of several things that can literally go wrong without warning -- and it’s really easy to check and takes but a second. I might do the very same thing and I would guess that my colleagues might take similar action, if for no other reason as to eliminate any extraneous reason for the mishap and know where the problem is most likely at -- with the player. And that’s very correctible, isn’t it?
“I believe this flaw can only have been the result of lack of concentration and preparation...
Bottom line - Buffet clarinets just aren't reliable.”
Well? Which is it? What does one have to do with the other?
“...who the hell is Larry Liberson?”
Me. Somebody who is decidedly low-profile -- and that’s how I care for it to be. (I can’t tell you how much of an intrusion it is to be off on a ski holiday in Switzerland and have someone riding the lift with me wanting to discuss my preferred fingering for high G.) However, in spite of that, I seem to be pretty well-known among my colleagues in the business. Hell, I bet at least six or seven of them know who I am!
But you don’t....I’m crushed. Better fire my PR guy. But you’ll get nothing from me on the subject, nosiree.....
“Of course, Larry Liberson would defend a bad performance by a fellow clarinetist...”
It amazes me to learn of your seemingly incredible powers of perception where I am concerned -- especially since you admittedly have no idea who I am.
There is more than a subtle distinction between a squeak -- an extraneous, if not unpleasant, noise -- and a “bad performance.”
Furthermore, it seems as if you have a bit of remedial work to do in the field of reading comprehension. Tell me where I have defended “a bad performance by a fellow clarinetist.” Tell me when I have ever done so, will you?
“...he depends on people overlooking the flaws to make a living.”
Again, you seem to be living in some kind of fantasy world. I can assure you that nobody sits on the stage -- especially at this level of which you speak -- to simply “get by” and hoping for things to transpire as you inanely assert.
We’re all human (even you, I would wager)and with that humanity comes unpredictiblilty. We deal with it all the time, all of us, no matter what we do in life. Those of us who make a living on the stage or in the pit do all that we can to our best ability to insure that we deliver the best we can -- whether it is in the evening or the afternoon, whether you’re sitting in the boxes or the upper balcony, whether you’re sitting outside at a free park concert or standing on my front porch in the summer time while I practice with my windows open (wait...forget that last example....). It doesn’t matter who you are, what you are or where you are.
We’ve all made mistakes and had our share of minor (and major) disasters and, sadly, they will happen again. That’s part of the live, human experiment. No one is making excuses and no one is looking for sympathy. Contrary to your fabrication, none of us are looking or needing to defend what you might regard as a bad performance, especially for the reasons you seem to believe. However, I believe we all share empathy for these rare situations as we’ve all (except you, apparently) been there. That’s human.
And when they happen, we do all we can to hopefully correct whatever problem there was so that it will not recur. That’s called dedication and professionalism.
That’s human, too.
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2002-11-26 02:36
One more pearl of wisdom from larryb:
“...given that his Buffet played a ruinous clinker during one of the most sublime moments in music, it's good to knownow which clarinet brand to avoid.”
Next time you stumble while walking, I expect you to immediately remove your shoes -- whatever brand they might be -- and toss them in the nearest trash basket! 
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2002-11-26 02:37
To Greg Smith, who said “I squeaked in last Saturday night's R. Strauss' Zarathustra.
Tacky at the Chicago Symphony Orchestra,”
Hmmm.....you know, I have about a dozen or so of your mouthpieces. If the squeak was the fault of your mouthpiece, you can expect a big package coming your way from me.
You know to whom to make out the refund check.
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2002-11-26 02:48
larryb's first post in this thread declared in part:
"On the other hand, given that his Buffet played a ruinous clinker during one of the most sublime moments in music, it's good to knownow which clarinet brand to avoid."
--------------------------------------------------------------
This reminds me of a famous story, perhaps apocryphal, about Heiftz.
In the green room backstage after one of his recitals at Carnegie Hall, a line of admirers waited to greet and praise Heiftz for his inspiring performance.
The very last young person in line greeted the famous violinist and exclaimed "What beautiful music your violin makes!"...at which point Heiftz slowly walked over to his violin case, opened it, put one ear to the Stadivarius, lifted his head and replied with a puzzled look, "That's funny, I don't hear anything."
Gregory Smith
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Author: d dow
Date: 2002-11-26 03:09
I just can't understand how one could blame Buffet for this squeek, these things happen to the very best and musicians== of all calibre
are human.
I also think as a player in a symphony that you can't say the R13 is a bad instrument, the player made the mistake and must live up to it.
in Holland I heard the concertgebouw Principal play a loud sqwuack and can say he positively we all have bad days like everyone ealse.
Live and let live, And Buffet makes a great clarinet as it always did!
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Author: d dow
Date: 2002-11-26 03:19
I play Principal clarinet with Symphony NB in Canada and remember clearly my squeek in the middle solo of a high C in the slow movement of Brahms Piano Concerto, it just happened while I held the sound.
Someone in the audience thought a mike fed back, ( a freind told me)and I said "it was just me,".
and by the way I just continued to hold the high C, it was a glitch that just happened.kind of a blip in a stream of sound........life goes on...plenty of notes more to play and enjoy. why let this stuff bug you....
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2002-11-26 04:36
The mike feedback bit actually happened to me, I let a squeek loose while playing with our community band and the director spent the next few minutes (while directing all the time) trying to turn off the mike he was using for between piece commentary. (No, I never told him!)
I once installed a name brand wood floor (expensive!) and found that the warranty stated that due to the nature of wood, the company would not honor warranty claims unless the damaged pieces were in excess of ten percent of the purchase! Figuring one squeek against thousands of notes played, the performer was doing much better than that! Unlike most of the rest or us, live performers do not have the luxury of having their errors edited out or thrown away!
I don't much like product placements, celebrity endorsements or arena namings, but they are a fact of life in our ecconomic system. I suspect that if most folks made buying decisions solely on price vs. quality, the endorsements would go away.
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2002-11-26 05:09
That note in the program doesn't bother me at all. What does is seeing "Baldwin" or "Yamaha" or some other name painted in huge block letters along the side of the grand piano. I've seen that in some orchestral halls in the last few years and always find it distracting and in poor taste. I guess the days of a small label on the keyboard cover are gone... now if the clarinetist hung a neon Buffet sign on the back of his stand it would be about as bad as those manufacturer signs on the pianos.
I enjoy reading the notes about the players and if they want to push the names of their horns fine. They push the names of the schools they attended and the names of their mentors and other orchestras with which they have played and no one objects.
I also love the notes in this thread about not buying a horn on which you have heard a professional in a major orchestra squeak. I guess we all should run out and get new plastic Bundy or Vito horns as Greg or Larry have never been heard to squeak one of them in a performance... therefore those horns must be the best!
LOL, Terry
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Author: Jim Mougey
Date: 2002-11-26 10:43
I clinked one during "Big Cage galop" and the lions didn't complain. They left the cage without a growl. The director didn't care, the drummer didn't care, and I didn't miss the rest of the galop. Aint I da good un?
Jim )M)
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Author: William
Date: 2002-11-26 15:04
I have never squeaked in my life--although I have caused my reed to play frequent "inappropriate harmonic choices" from time-to-time.
To paraphrase Ben Franklin, "Squeak Proudly!!!" (and then, Get On With It!!!)
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2002-11-26 15:43
To play devil's advocate, i think larryb has somewhat of a point.
The squeak is nothing to talk about we all ahd one at the worst of time and we all know it'll happen again. Tough, play the piano if you don't like it.
As far as product placement is concerned, I don't really have a problem with a one liner in the program saying which instrument such and such plays. It's everywhere, I just hope we won't get to the formula one trend where the new concert dress code is a nice suit with lots of endorsement and a nice buffet cap, although that would definitely make orchestras more colorful....
I have to say though that no product placement at all would be great. Can you imagine going to see a movie without having to go through the painful 10s still shot on a Coke can or a Gap store?
That would be great!
-S
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-11-26 22:01
Think about it though... Would you add a small line "blah blah plays Buffet" in the program of everything you do for free instruments? I know I would.
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Author: spf
Date: 2002-11-27 00:00
Did I miss it? I know somebody asked...(but I refuse to go back and find it!)
Exactly what was this "embarassingly tacky" product endorsement
after all? Was it really a plug to make NASCAR blush? Or was it a information blip?
BTW, if sports are a reasonable parallel, Tiger Woods has been in a FEW sand traps..., every make of car that runs in NASCAR has been into the wall..., E. Smith has fumbled a football, M. Jordan has missed a free throw..., etc.
They all are still great at what they do. Relax and admire pro level performance, not pick at one error.
spf
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Author: spf
Date: 2002-11-27 00:06
Back on track...(?)
larryb I would say from the overwhelming response here...
that...
it IS you.
However, an answer to my previous post about the PRODUCT ENDORSEMENT might be able to change my view. FWIW.
spf
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-11-27 00:18
I may not be part of major symphony orchestra, but even though I'm in high school I can still squeak quite proficiently. Anybody who desires lessons in proper sqeaking can drop me an email.
Honestly, what's the deal?
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Author: Mark Charette, Webmaster
Date: 2002-11-27 02:21
Morrigan wrote:
>
> Think about it though... Would you add a small line "blah
> blah plays Buffet" in the program of everything you do for free
> instruments? I know I would.
Most if not all of the "xxxx" artists don't get free instruments. The companies, hoever, do help sponsor events where those artists perform and help defray travel, incidental, and honoraria costs.
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2002-11-27 05:57
Funny too that when I heard a certain orchestra play Sibelius 2 this past weekend and when the principal trupmet player fracked one of the biggest notes he playes in the fourth movement, I did not wonder what brand of trumpet he was playing!
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Author: d dow
Date: 2002-11-27 12:37
It doesn't matter what the instrument we play, we all make mistakes and the point of music being an art is we are all human.
Try the recording of Feidler doing Ravel Bolero with the Boston pOPS, ON THAT RECORD THERE IS AN UNGODLY SQUACK FROM THE BASSOON, and this made it to vinyl.
Maybe the Heckel Bassoon isn't so great but most bassoonist use them, but ,then I also know the Boston Pops had the best winds in those days and it exemplifies we are all human ....
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-11-27 14:36
To squeak during clarinet solo Is NOT OK. Any Pro should strive for perfection. And please, keep your lame excuses why you did it for yourself.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2002-11-27 15:10
Wow - spend a day away from the computer and look what roles in.
I did have some time to think about my anti-commercialism, perfectionist rantings. My issue was more ethical than musical/technical - perhaps I should find an ethics website.
You're all right, of course, but think about this:
If you go to a fancy restaurant and order a steak rare, and it is served well-done, you have a right to send it back to the kitchen. Fine chefs are professionals after all, and they care about the quality of their work. Go to a concert and hear an obviously flawed performance, one that you didn't order, and you have no right to a refund.
Your only recourse is to complain on an internet bulletin board.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2002-11-27 16:14
Vytas, pros do strive for perfection. They do not reach it 100% of the time. Perhaps you would prefer computer-generated renditions and trade your clarinet in on music software. No, from your previous posts, I do not think you would.
I'm sure the performer doesn't think the squeek was "OK". But it is a part of life . . . like colds, flu, and sore throats. You don't want to live there, but sometimes you have to go through it.
And have sympathy, not criticism, for those afflicted.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-11-27 17:01
larryb wrote:
>
> Go to a concert and hear an
> obviously flawed performance, one that you didn't order, and
> you have no right to a refund.
Try going to an opera where it was a bad night. People'll be out front getting their money back way before the end of Act 1 - it's not rare at all (pun intended).
It happens at concerts, too. If it's an "obviously flawed" performance (they do happen), get your money back. But don't stay for the whole thing. Just like you won't get your money back after eating the whole steak, you won't get your money back after hearing the whole performance.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-11-27 17:03
Vytas wrote:
>
> To squeak during clarinet solo Is NOT OK. Any Pro should
> strive for perfection. And please, keep your lame excuses why
> you did it for yourself.
What post are you reading? Where did anyone say it was "OK", like it's something to strive for?
Lame post ...
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Author: larryb
Date: 2002-11-27 17:11
Hi Mark, glad we're still talking.
Here's the Philharmonic's refund policy. I'd be curious to know which concert hall offers full or partial refunds for "obviously flawed" performances.
"All ticket sales are final. Advance-purchase tickets cannot be exchanged or refunded. All amounts are in USD."
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Author: d dow
Date: 2002-11-27 17:14
I would agree with Mark on this one for sure.
when i make a mistake I live up to and roll on.
However, too any squeeks and funny noises and the gig is up!
the reality is an orchestra is a work environment and one is expected to play professionally at a high level
day in
and day out not matter the music or instrument you play on....
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Author: d dow
Date: 2002-11-27 17:16
Just off topic apparent the recent Bayreuth performances were so bad audiences left in droves. Now there is a situation where one pays up to $1,000 US a ticket to listen to some lousy singing.....
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-11-27 17:49
larryb wrote:
>
> Hi Mark, glad we're still talking.
>
> "All ticket sales are final. Advance-purchase tickets cannot be
> exchanged or refunded. All amounts are in USD."
Next time you have an off-experience at a performance - leave right away, go to the box office, and ask for your money back. I have. They gave it back. The written policy you gave does not have a provision (pro or con) against refunds for bad performances, and managers have discretion at any business I;ve ever worked in.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-11-27 17:51
larryb wrote:
>
> Hi Mark, glad we're still talking.
???
Just because I think someone's ideas are way off base is meaningless in the context of whether or not I'll talk with them.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-11-27 18:25
M. Charette is arrogant & egocentric snob. Please, add an "Ignore" button that I could shut you off.
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Author: spf
Date: 2002-11-27 18:45
Vytas and Mark,
This thread has been on the edge (IMHO). Now we have tied the Nazi thread, and even exceeded the tongue piercing (pt 2) thread without a childish shoving match. Don't you two take this one "out there."
You both should know better.
spf
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Author: Mark Charette, Webmaster
Date: 2002-11-27 19:01
Vytas wrote:
>
> M. Charette is arrogant & egocentric snob. Please, add an
> "Ignore" button that I could shut you off.
Just ignore me. I don't mind. The "arrogant & egocentric" comment has been made before, and I'm sure it'll be made again. It goes with the territory.
spf is right, the thread has gone on way too long. It's now closed and no more posts will be allowed.
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The Clarinet Pages
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