 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Fred
Date: 2002-11-26 13:52
Ed Myers . . . Valentino . . . Cork . . . Leather . . . Gortex . . . and of course Double Skin Bladder: All these pads have had some glowing things said about them (and a few brickbats thrown as well.) Qualities such as how they seal and seat, their effect on tone, likelihood of improper installation, resistance to moisture, and longevity must all be balanced by a player deciding which pad to use. And even then, the pad of choice on one part of the clarinet may not be right for other parts of the clarinet.
It is not surprising that professional players and fine repair technicians seem to be "purists" - seeking the finest sound first and foremost. (That's my perception at least.) What I'm looking for is a pad that is more hardy than DS Bladder pads and still seal well even if the clarinet isn't played regularly. I'm seeking to elevate hardiness and convenience while losing as little as possible to get what I want.
What I hope to get out of this thread is comments by players that have had something other than Double Skin Bladder Pads installed and how they like the results compared with "standard" pads. And I would be foolish to not seek the counsel and warnings of repair technicians that have seen the pitfalls of some of these options more clearly than perhaps some of us users. Some of these pads - like we've seen with cork - may be fine on some tone holes and discouraged on others. I would appreciate any comments - I have some neglected clarinets wondering when they will get new pads.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-11-26 15:14
TKS, Fred, for "kicking-off" what may be an interesting discussion of a VITAL cl component. I just now tried a patent search for "clarinet AND pad" [1996-2002] on USPTO, and got a Sorry, Busy answer, but will try-try again. Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-11-26 17:35
The only patent re: pad I found [with clarinet] is US 5,900,562 R. Smeding, NL, cited therein is A. Elbaz and other earlier art. Its hard to read just what the "sealing member" consists of, except as "closed-cell-foam rubber/plastic". I would still guess at a special polyurethane, somewhat different from mattress/pillow foam. Help! Don
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-11-26 22:09
My clarinet had a complete overhaul about 2 years ago, and no problems since.
My top joint has cork pads - but with a difference. I had the tone holes all re-dressed and the 'finest' (quote my trusted repair tech) Oboe pads put in. They don't 'pop' or make any percussive sounds (well, as much as 'normal' clarinet cork pads do!).
My bottom joint is all leather, and seal exceptionally well!
However, it seems my repair guy forgot to correct the link for my fork Eb/Bb, I had to fix that one myself!
I definitely prefer this setup to skin pads, as I found they were simply too much maintenance, constantly trying to keep them dry and this and that and then the buzzing when they start to rot, and then falling out one day... GAH! I tried to supress this nightmare ages ago... LOL
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-11-26 23:13
1. The pad selection issue is very dependent on the state of the rest of the clarinet, especially such items as the levelness of the tone holes, the lack of wood grain grooves and chips across tone holes, the precision of the pivots and the security of the linkages, the alignment of key cups over tone holes, and the allowable pad thickness. All these issues must be dealt with before considering using any pads, eg Norbeck, which do not 'bed in'.
2. There are two sets of situations for pads on a clarinet:
a). Keys that are normally open.
b). Keys that are normally closed.
These sets have slightly different pad requirements. Note the frequent recommendation for cork pads for some keys and not for others.
Some pads, particularly synthetics, require (almost) constant seating pressure to retain a reliable 'seating groove'. These are suitable only for normally-closed keys.
Others pads bed in a little and have a 'memory', retaining their seating groove, even including accommodation of non-level tone holes, chips, and foreign matter. The better the 'memory' retains the seating while the pad is open, the less pressure is required when the pad is closed.
On the other hand, at the other end of the spectrum, a totally elastic material has no memory, and if alignment right around the tone hole is not perfect (within a lot less than 1/1000") then the player has the irritating need to press the key hard enough for the elastic to accommodate the imperfections in alignment.
It so happens that quality felt has proved to be an exceptional 'memory' material, making it ideal for pads in general, and very difficult to beat for normally-open keys. Its problem is that it needs to be covered with a water/air tight membrane. It seems to be quite a challenge to incorporate the memory of felt into a waterproof, airproof synthetic, for use on normally-open keys. Perhaps the best is a felt treated for high humidity stability, covered by a superior fabric such as Music Center's microfibre (I have not yet used their Gore-Tex covering), or equivalent. But you do have to pay a lot for these superior pads.
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2002-11-27 01:40
Morrigan,
A cork pad is a cork pad. There is not an "oboe" cork pad vs a "clarinet" cork pad. The cork pad does come in different thickness just like other pads including bladder pads.
jbutler
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2002-11-27 02:19
I work on vintage metal clarinets (and I think that Fred may indulge in those, too.) I usually have a favorite or two that I use and then "all the rest" that I am trying to restore. The good news is that my technique is improving. The bad news is that the number I am satisfied with is never large.
I think that the double bladder give the best sound -- maybe. I bought a double walled Penzel Muller from Eric Satterly (sp). who posts on Klarinet, occasionally, it he used treated bladder pads. It plays like a dream.
I mostly use white kit leather pads, which are available in thin sizes from Ed Meyers and I think some others. I have heard that they last better. One local tech says that they especially will last better on metal clarinets because they close against metal instead of wood or plastic. He points out that almost nobody uses bladder pads on saxes, even when the pads are small. I don't know if this is because of slight corrosion on the metal, or moisture condensation or some funny reaction.
I have also heard that mites don't go into the leather pads.
I have heard that cork pads occasionally dry out and get crumbly. Dunno if this is a problem. I have pulled out some very crumbly cork. However, I have pulled out leather that felt like bubblegum lumps under a school desk.
The real reason I like leather is that they are easier to seat if you are not especially skilled. One reason is that they bend a little. Another is because I like to use a leak light and have bad eyes. With bladder pads, light comes through the pad and I am never sure if I have a good seal or not. With leather (and cork) any light means a leak.
The nicest thing about cork is that you can file the back in order to get the pad slightly wedge shaped, if necessary. Also, every once and a while I have trouble getting a pad to cover the hole on one of the right hand side keys. You can take oversized cork and trim it so the walls are slanted and so that the surface area is as big as the outside of the pad cup rather than slightly smaller than the inside diameter.
So, thin white kit for 95%. (But I may try the Ed Meyer synthetic -- so who knows.)
I guess it is cheaper to try different pads than to always be trying different mouthpieces.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-11-27 10:14
jbutler
Ahh... yes. Oboe cork pads are (from what I've been speaking to Oboe players about) made from a different grade of cork than that used on Clarinets - they seat differently, which is why I had the tone holes re-dressed.
Anyway, I can give you the number for my repair tech if you'd like, he's the one who did it!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-11-27 11:10
I have bought cork pads from a number of suppliers. They are always specified by diameter and thickness, not instrument, the only exception being 'water key' cork pads for brass instruments, which are indeed, often of a lower quality cork.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2002-11-27 16:05
To Jim and Morrigan - Your experience with leather pads is interesting. I'm also sure that unless he has changed recently Dave S. does all his overhauls in tan kid pads. I've seen metal clarinets (yes, Jim . . . I like them too) with ancient leather pads that still played and sealed well. I assume also that the cork uppers will last well.
To me, the lower joint amounts to the majority of my headaches. As Gordon mentioned, you are dealing with some "normally open" and some "normally closed" pads. Buzzing skins and pads that lose their seat make playing much less enjoyable. And that hesitation before middle B speaks drives me nuts (a very short trip in my case). I'd love to decide on an option for especially the large four pads on the lower joint. Gordon has given alot of info that I haven't yet fully digested, but I do hear the warning about typical synthetic pads on normally open keys.
I really don't care about the cost of the pads themselves. If a pad costs four times as much as a bladder pad, that's not that big a deal if the labor involved isn't significantly more. That would be a bargain if performance on the lower joint could be made to match the performance of cork on the upper.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-11-27 16:12
For the sake of clarification, not argument, better grade cork(clear, no discernable holes or 'veins'), is used for musical wind instruments and medicine bottle stoppers. I can give you the number of several pad suppliers and instrument techncians if you like.
Hole redressing is done to eliminate minute nicks and chips to make the relatively harder(to regular pads) cork seat well.
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Author: John Elison
Date: 2002-11-27 20:32
What do you think of Teflon over felt? I just had my clarinet overhauled with cork on the upper section and Teflon pads on the lower section. It plays real nice.
Best regards,
John Elison
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Author: Fred
Date: 2002-11-27 21:41
That's interesting, John. Do you know the name of the teflon pads, or who the supplier was? That might address Gordon's issue of felt retaining a good memory while still providing more durability.
Also, how extensive can you get with cork on the upper joint? My only clarinet with cork uppers was limited to 4 keys: register, C#/G#, RH Eb/Bb, and sliver key.
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2002-11-27 23:19
Earlier this year, I repadded a metal clarinet using all cork pads. I bought a couple in each size through 11 mm and then cut the larger ones from sheet cork. (Surprisingly easy.) I need to buy slightly thicker and better quality cork if I am going to do more of this. Nonetheless, the horn plays very well. Perhaps the cork is a little noisier than leather.
What I need to do is buy a bunch of metal clarinets all the same model and then do 2 or 3 each in leather, cork, synthetic, double bladder, and whatever. Then, I have to locate the clarinet players of the N.S.O. down at the Kenedy Center and get them to try all the horns. I am sure that they will be delighted to play a dozen or so metal clarinets all afternoon to see whether the pads make any difference.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-11-28 01:02
Fred, if the "hesitation before middle B speaks drives [you] nuts" I really think you have a problem of pad thickness, pad installation, key cup alignmnet, sloppy pivot, or wobbling post. A good technician can make these issues pretty reliable.
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Author: John Elison
Date: 2002-11-28 01:07
Hi Fred,
>> That's interesting, John. Do you know the name of the teflon pads,
>> or who the supplier was?
I had my clarinet overhauled by Peter Spriggs, one of the bulletin board sponsors. He makes his own pads, both cork and Teflon. Unfortunately, he doesn’t sell his pads separately.
>> Also, how extensive can you get with cork on the upper joint? My only clarinet with
>> cork uppers was limited to 4 keys: register, C#/G#, RH Eb/Bb, and sliver key.
Peter used cork on all but two pads on the upper section. He used Teflon on the pad just above the middle finger ring and the tiny pad on the forked Bb/Eb mechanism.
On the lower section he used Teflon on all but two pads, the C#4/G#5 key and the B3/F#5 key have cork pads.
Best regards,
John Elison
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Author: Fred
Date: 2002-11-28 02:03
It should be noted in the annals of Obscure Musical History that on this date I gave Jim Lande a reason to buy more metal clarinets. That's like giving rice permission to be white.
I appreciate all the comments; it looks like there really is life after bladder pads (sounds suspiciously like an incontinence product, doesn't it? Enough reason to switch.)
John, do you notice any audible or tactile differences in the teflon pads compared to bladder pads?
Jim, do you think leather dulls the tone? If there is a difference, what terms would you use to describe it?
Gordon, have you actually used the microfiber pads on the large LJ keys? That might be a good option - microfiber is supposed to be really tough. Do you feel these synthetic-covered felt pads (teflon, microfiber, others?) will seat as well as bladder, or does that depend more on the felt? Would these be equally suited for usually open and usually closed keys?
Interesting that previous threads have discussed Valentino, Myers, and Gortex, but no user comments are coming forth. Gortex was standard issue on some Buffets - did they last longer than standard bladder pads? I have been very pleased with the cork pads I've had installed. Looks like I could expand their use significantly on my better clarinets, and be satisfied with leather and/or some of these other options on my secondary instruments.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-11-28 07:06
Although I use the microfibre pad material extensively in linkages, and have samples of the pads, I have not used them. They are very expensive, and I my customers and I don't have big problems with bladder pads - I believe it is to do with installation etc, as mentioned. The microfibre pads do have high quality felt, with all its inherent properties, and I do believe that for felt-based pads, the important factor for seating is the felt, not the waterproof membrane, whose purpose is almost entirely for sealing.
Gore-Tex pads. There seems to have been problems with the surface diintegrating on one type. I note that Gore-Tex type rainwear had an early history of delamination. There seems to be at least two sources for these pads, and they may be quite different.
Until I have more technical information, I cannot really understand the use of Gore-Tex, because its use as a laminate for making rainwear is because it breathes, i.e. allows the passage of air and water vapour while excluding the passage of water. Is this what we want? Surely the more insulated the felt is from the outside, highly variable environment, the better.
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Author: graham
Date: 2002-11-28 13:08
I had a curious situation with my pair when I had the old hardening leather pads replaced with new brown leather. But the certain of these pads became sticky on both clarinets, all of them "open holes" such as the pad which runs under the throat A key, the pad just below that, the first pad on the lower joint, and the pad on the F/C key at the bottom. It never cleared up, so I had those pads replaced with skin, and no further problems have yet been noted.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-11-28 13:32
The leather is being treated to make it waterproof for some models of modern leather pads. It seems that at least some treatment processes leave the pads sticky. It is quite a problem for some saxophones.
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2002-11-28 23:16
The "seats" on a sax are much finer (sharper) than the cone shape seat on a clarinet. Bladder pads on a sax would be cut through in short order due to the sharper seats and greater spring pressure. Leather is used here for durability and longevity.
Mark
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2002-11-28 23:23
Pad buzzing is usually caused by a loose skin. You can fix this by ironing the pad. Place a small drop of water on the pad, then heat your pad slick and "iron" the pad flat. If you are really good you can do this without (in most cases) removing the key.
Mark
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-11-29 04:34
Ironing works, but not too hot, or the membrane shrinks to nothing. Use very light pressure; somehow a combination of heat, moisture and pressure seems to compress the felt. It is easy to finish up with a non-seating pad.
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2002-11-29 15:45
Gordon
My wife occasionally spins wool from NZ. Wool fibres are not smooths but rather look like they have microscopic overlapping scales. These work a little like velcro hooks. The felting process is simply getting enough of these plates to lock together so that the fibers can't be pulled apart easily. You felt wool using warm water and perhaps a little soap to make the fibers slip more easily, and then mechanical action. This is exactly what happens when you wet the pad and press with a hot pad slick.
For the most part, felting is a one way process. Felt gets firmer and more compressed as more overlapping scales catch. Often, they won't uncatch without breaking the individual fibers. This accounts for the 'memory' when a felt pad is seated against a tone hole.
I am glad you mentioned this. I had never thought about it.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-11-29 21:16
Thanks for the great info, adding to the understanding of what I have observed.
NZ wool!! Apparently our superb merino wool is highly sought by top fashion houses and fabric designers. Personally I've never met it...very expensive!
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2002-11-29 23:19
Hi Fred, I work with Valentino and Ed Myers synthetic pads.
On normally closed keys, although the Myers pad seals better, the springs need to be set at less than 2oz of pressure or the compression seal will continute to press in as time goes by (a correction from a previous post of mine). Therefore, on normally closed keys, I prefer the Valentino, because once the compression ring is made, it's permanent...and varying amounts of increased pad pressure do not seem to affect the impression amount. And, because it's permanent, it will not go back to the "new" look pad status on an open hole key. I can make a nice compression ring with the Myers pad, but by the next day, it looks like a brand new pad again. Therefore, I use this pad on the two large open holes in the lower section. I find that they are far easier to "balance" on dual hole simultaneous closure. For me, with the Valentino pad, this equal pressure "balancing" act is very, very difficult to achieve because the pad foam material is harder.
Also, on the Valentio, heated air over the pad is necessary with pad pressure to form the ring. With the Myers pad, the ring can only be made with pressure. Heated air over the Myers pad is a disaster because the 0.060" soft foam is very sensitive to heat and the pad begins to shrink.
All of the above are simply my discoveries. I am certainly no expert on the synthetic pad subject...I learn new things every day.
Dan Shusta
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Author: Fred
Date: 2002-11-29 23:29
Before this thread falls off the page and into the abyss, thanks to everyone for helping to educate us all on the alternatives to bladder pads. I don't yet know what I'm going to do, but I'm going to try something!
Thanks . . . And MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL !!
(Sorry . . . just got back from Santa Claus II)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-12-01 09:08
Just another thought:
There are many, many cases of synthetic products failing after a few years. So it would be difficult to get any guarantees for relatively untried synthetics. For example, I wonder how many of these new pads have been tested for the effect of regular exposure to aliva enzymes.
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