 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bob gardner
Date: 2002-11-23 22:42
i started working on "I got Plenty of Nothing"written in the key of F major. I'm playing along and there is written e# and I had to stop and figure this one out. What the story was that an e# is the same as a F natural. The next not is an F and since it is written in the key of F it would be an F#.
My question is wouldn't be easier to just put a nautral accident on an F rather then writting an e#?
bob
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-11-23 23:03
Are you sure? F major has one flat - Bb. In this key, E# and F are exactly the same note, the F is not sharp.
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Author: Augie
Date: 2002-11-23 23:10
The reason for writing enharmonic notes dates back to the early 19th century and earlier with well temperment tuning. SInce all todays keys sound the same, some notes are out of tune which is why you have to lower some notes in a triad to get it in tune. The system of tuning we use is called equal tempermant where all the semitones are equal. In the 19th centuery before they used equal temperment an E# would have sounded different from an F and this has just been kept in use even though now an E# sounds like an F or a Db like a C# etc...
-Jon
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Author: David Stringer
Date: 2002-11-24 00:36
I might be slightly off here, but I figure that we need things like E#'s so that certain keys don't end up with two F's for instance. In F#, if the seventh of the major scale was also F natural, what would the key signature look like? Having an e# lets all of the notes on the major scale be written without modifiers, nu? Isn't F# six sharps even though there are only five sharps in reality? OK, I mean THIS particular reality.
But maybe someone can explain to me why I have a copy of "Desifinato" (in F) with an Eb in one bar, and a D# in the next bar....
David
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2002-11-24 01:42
I have always assumed that this practice allows you to place just one sharp (e# in this instance) in the run with the next note (F#) left to be read in the key... so there is less confusion.
Also the alternative would be to write an F natural and then immediatly have to follow it with an F#. At first this may seem simpler, but the way they did it takes less chicken scratch-writing and is in fact easier to read (for many folks).
Do you really think that Gershwin based a lot of his writing on what was done in the 1800's? I don't know if he did, what do you think?
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Author: Dee
Date: 2002-11-24 04:03
The choice is generally based on "scale spellings" and "chord spellings".
Let's take an extreme scale example to illustrate. In the key of C#, the scale is:
C#, D#, E#, F#, G#, A#, B#, C#
In a scale, each letter of the alphabet is only used once regardless of whether it is natural, flatted or sharped. Therefore E# and B# cannot be written as F and C as it violates the rules of writing a scale.
Similarly in chords. Let's take an example. Starting with an A major chord, the chord spelling is A, C#, E. Now if we change it to an augmented chord, the last note must be raised 1/2 step. That makes an A major augmented chord to be A, C#, E#. It would be an incorrect "spelling" to write the E# as an F as doing so obscures the fact that it is an augmented chord. This is clearer in piano music where you can see all the notes as compared to clarinet music where you only see your own individual part.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2002-11-24 05:41
Bob,
In this case, I think Terry has the right answer. When you say the key of F, I assume you are talking about concert F, which would be G on the Bb clarinet. Using E# rather than F natural makes it possible to write the passage with only one accidental - saves a little ink and reduces the risk of confusion at the cost of using a note you're not used to seeing.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: bob gardner
Date: 2002-11-24 05:44
The main reason I brought this up is because none of my fingering charts show an e# or a Cb. Sometimes we have to use our brains and figure things out.
peace.
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Author: bob gardner
Date: 2002-11-24 05:51
Jack: that has to be the answer, because the following note is an F or an F#. if it was written as an F natural they would have to put a # on the following note.
I guess I'm on the right side of 50.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2002-11-24 05:53
It also occurs to me that another convention that underlies Terry's answer and makes more sense to me as the reason here than Dee's convention is the convention of using sharps as accidentals in ascending passages and flats in descending passages to reduce the likelihood of having to cancel the accidental with a subsequent note -- thereby leaving the accidental in effect.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Ken
Date: 2002-11-24 06:52
Amazing; Dee is correct. Reading strictly within any key signature (excluding no sharps/no flats), there's NO such thing as an "accidental" UNLESS a double sharp, double flat or sharp/flat, flat/natural is written leading/to be observed in the next measure. And, reading music "purely enharmonically" means you are in NO key; any sharp or flat is manually notated. An E# can also be a Gb too, depending on the key you're in.
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Author: Ken
Date: 2002-11-24 07:12
Correction, an E# is also an F natural and can be a G "double flat" depending on the key signature.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-11-24 08:13
If you play in conjunction with a keyboard (or tuner) all the time, with its tempered scale, then E# = F. However if you are a singer, or a musician with a good ear, and you are regularly playing away from a keyboard, then your good ear will lead you to humour the intonation of notres such that E# is indeed different (slighlty) from F.
If you are singing in a choir and the harmony of a chord changes in certain ways, while your part 'stays' on a certain note (e.g. E# changing to F), you will find yourself having to change your note slightly to kep in tune.
A harp does not use a well tempered scale. E# is played on a different string from F, and the tuning will be slightly different. In some keys the E# would be used, and in others the F would be used.
So attention to this detail is far from obsolete!
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