 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2002-11-19 21:22
I know very little about the Premiere Rhapsodie. I only recently heard it for the first time via Sean Osborn’s MP3, and only acquired the Durand edition print this week.
I think he plays it wonderfully. I especially love his tight sound. However, the recent debate here about interpreting Debussy’s tempo and expression markings has me wondering if Osborn’s interpretation is a good one to model. Several times throughout he alters the tempo differently from what the sheet music says. Like I said, I happen to like his interpretation -- but I also loved Bernstein’s interpretaion of Rhapsody in Blue, which many critics hated.
Anybody have opinions of Osborn’s recording? You can find it at http://artists.mp3s.com/artist_song/498/498555.html
Meanwhile, I'll look for other recordings.
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Author: rmk
Date: 2002-11-20 03:26
I think the tempo he takes on the last page is in outrageous bad taste, but then, I don't think much of his performance overall. He certainly has some intonation problems around C5 (listen to the beginning).
I do like his sound for the most part, especially in the lower clarion (around C6).
The pianist has some shortcomings as well, not the least of which is that he/she can't play two against three accurately.
A competent, but pedestrian performance.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-11-20 09:25
I didn't like this recording at all...
I found his sound to be very 'round-about', rather than focussed and direct. Sometimes, I found myself wondering if he would make it over the break because his sound seemed so unstable. And his staccato was, well, like me 5 years ago - all air and not really full of sound. I thought his tone sounded generally undeveloped, unsophisticated and absoloutely not a joy to listen to. His p is p, but he loosesany depth he may have possibly had if he put some air through his instrument instead of out the corners of his mouth... And his pianist has a lot to answer for...
All-round, I wouldn't buy it. I'd rather listen to Emma-J's recording! Which is actually my favorite of this piece...!
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-11-20 13:22
This discussion reminds me of a time when I as listening to a colleague of mine perform some bach as an audition run-through. The guy is a major symphony principal and sounded great. I asked what others had said and he said:
"The only thing I know about playing Bach is that no matter what you do, all other musicians will hate it." He was only being somewhat facetious.
One could say the same for this performance of the Debussy. Here we're listening to a major symphony clarinet player, with a microphone way too close (note the sound of the breathing). While it is almost impossible to 'sound' great under these conditions, his control and smoothness are impressive to these ears.
Dynamics very impressive! Technique extrememly clean. Last page fast but very under control, I have heard much faster here.
As for the articulation, I know Sean's playing very well and his articulation is the envy of about 99% of all clarinetists (at least those who are honest with themselves). The close microphone is picking up some extraneous sound here.
I look forward to RMK and Morrigan posting their technically, rhythmically, intonationally and musically superior performances on the web within 2 weeks.
Until then, they're just jealous, as far as I am concerned.
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2002-11-20 15:30
Try this other online version and let us know what is wrong with it;->
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/93/andrew_simon.html
To HAT and G. Smith, wether or not Mr Osborn is a great player does not make this particular recording a reference one. It's probably why it's online and not on the shelves of some music store.
To rmk and Morrigan, please realize that most of those mp3.com recordings are often one take badly recorded track.
My personal favorite recordings of this piece are by the french players such as Guy Dangain or Paul Meyer.
Best,
-Sylvain who wish he could only play the first 2 bars as well as Mr. Osborn.
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2002-11-20 16:43
Well, I asked for opinions, and opinions I received. Let's not string people up like Richard Harris in that Man Called Horse movie for saying what they think when asked.
Thanks to all!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-11-20 17:02
As Greg, HAT and have said, it would be unfair to generate an opinion on any player based on a single MP3 track.
For most of my formative years I admired the sound and style (among other great players) of Karl Leister. When I finally did get to hear him play live, it was far different than I had expected to hear.
Did that diminish my respect for his great artistry? Of course not.
Do not let recordings bias your conception of a player's total musicianship, as they are only a single snapshot taken in time...GBK
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Author: rmk
Date: 2002-11-20 17:54
Hey HAT,
I'll post mine if you'll post yours! ;>)
Seriously, why are you so defensive? Am I not entitled to dislike the performance just because Mr. Osborn is apparently a friend of yours? BTW, I had some positive things to say as well.
I have never in 30 years heard the last page taken at such a breakneck speed, either live or on recordings.
You know, when I posted my "review" I just knew you'd be rushing in to "defend" him. Which is fine. Just don't attack me (or others)in the process. I may be the equal of Mr. Osborn for all you know. The audition commitee in Milwaukee SO actually thought I was better (2nd/Eb audition some years ago, not the principal position that Todd Levy won).
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2002-11-20 19:37
Quite the contrary to what some others have said, I hear this as a pretty dry recording. Aside from the fast(too fast imho!) last page, there is nothing to me that really stands out. I do like his sound, but I just don't hear him doing much with it. I totally agree with David's statement that his technique is the envy of most. I suppose this is the contrary to the statement I made earlier, about nothing stands out, but his runs were what we all dream for. Every note was heard in the scale. Most of the time, you just hear someone zip up the pattern not being able to distinguish the notes. In Sean's recording, you can hear every note and it is even. I regret that I cannot agree with most of what Morrigan is saying. To me the articulation sounds fine. My favorite recording of this piece would have to be either Frank Cohen's recording with the CO, or Karl Heinz Steffens. I am not a fan at all of Cohen's orchestral playing, but his Debussy is quite good.
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2002-11-20 20:22
rmk said "The audition commitee in Milwaukee SO actually thought I was better (2nd/Eb audition some years ago, not the principal position that Todd Levy won)."
Not necessarily. What it means is that you took a "better" audition in that particular committee's estimation on that given day. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't say you are someone's equal, their better or their worse.
And frankly (since you brought it up), there is only one person auditioning that ultimately matters: the individual who "wins" the auditions. All the rest are, unfortunately, losers. If it does your or anyone's ego or pride some good for making it to the next round or the finals or whatever, that's fine; but don't equate it with success. Better to think of it as an education in reality and perhaps a motivation for one's future on the audition circuit.
BTW, I haven't heard Sean's Debussy.....maybe someday I will.....
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-11-20 20:32
Although I do not have a tape of the Rhapsodie to post, it is not difficult for anyone who wants to to hear my playing online or live to do so. I have a cd for sale with sample tracks available for free downloading. Feel free to either trash them on the board or rerecord them yourself. Better to be criticized than ignored, I think.
As I have said before, When someone plays in a major symphony for 10 years or more, the amount they have to 'prove' goes down for me. If that sounds terribly prejudiced or too forgiving, so be it. Anyone who has spent time with people who play in big orchestras should understand why.
As it happens, I went to high school at Interlochen with Sean, where he practiced 5 hours a day, as I remember. Everything he does as a clarinetist he earned by working hard at it. He was talented but not the most talented, and he made up for that by working harder than those more talented ones.
He didn't come here begging people to listen to his 'definitive' recording of the Debussy. Someone here brought it up. I found the tone of a few postings awfully harsh considering the distinguished pedigree of the performer. I am sure if someone had written similar words about Emma Johnson, there would be fans of hers who would leap to her defense.
Judging performances of the Debussy Rhapsodie against a gold standard is easy, especially when it's just someone's studio runthrough in a bad room with a close microphone. It's especially easy for a highschool student to do. I was one once too.
I find it better to imagine what I might sound like given the same situation. That's not so easy. I have recorded myself in all kinds of rooms, and playbacks are sometimes sad times!
So I apologize for attacking, it's not very friendly. But I choose to defend clarinet players I respect who aren't on the board to defend themselves.
-HATTNER
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-11-21 00:27
HAT
Again, I feel insulted by your comments, and it's not the first time on this board. I never said I could do a better recording, all I said what what *I* think of this particular recording. The notion that the mic was way too close definitely contributes a lot to the quality of this recording.
I'm certainly not jealous of him - I wouldn't trade my sound for his, and if you want a recording, I can post MP3s of myself playing on Eb in a clarinet choir, in a concert band, as well as a 45-minute solo recital I have. However, I choose not to. I choose not to because I know how much I'll be judged and compared to 'greater' artists than myself, and even judged by those who may not be advanced as me. I choose not to post them because of people like you. And, most of the time, I don't post opinions because of people like you, judging someone you don't even know. And yes, I'm angry and insulted you attacked me like that.
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Author: Ken
Date: 2002-11-21 01:01
Morrigan, you're making a total ass out of yourself among the big dogs here, just shut up while you're behind; your words don't hold two ounces of water in a dixie cup.
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Author: Meighan Stoops
Date: 2002-11-21 01:27
Morrigan says
"And his staccato was, well, like me 5 years ago - all air and not really full of sound. I thought his tone sounded generally undeveloped, unsophisticated and absoloutely not a joy to listen to."
"And, most of the time, I don't post opinions because of people like you, judging someone you don't even know."
I don't want to add to the hostility on this board. Morrigan, you sound like someone who genuinely wants to improve while finding her own way/voice. I respect that. But, the logic of your argument doesn't hold up. This profession is about being judged whether you like it or not. Some people will like what you're doing, others won't. If you have talent, work hard, and are continually musically introspective AND you are happy with what you are doing, WHO CARES what they think!
As far as "judging someone you don't even know," you can do it in an informed and appreciative way even if you don't particularly like the person's playing.
Meg Stoops
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2002-11-21 02:09
Sorry Morrigan, you're cool an all, but I'm with Ken and Meighan on this one. You have to be careful of what you say on boards like this because there are so many big names that post, and also some who don't post. I'm not saying don't have an opinion, but sometimes you do go about it sharing the wrong way.
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Author: MB
Date: 2002-11-21 03:41
OK guys, let's be done with this one...email and postings can be misconstrued in tone and attitude...this one seems to have become nasty and there isn't any need for that.
I think we tend to forget that it really isn't about "us" but rather about the "music" and how we preserve it.
It's almost Thanksgiving - can't we all be grateful that we can do something that a lot of people can't do?
Have a good one!
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-11-21 04:29
Ken
I can't believe you said that - just shows the arrogance of some of the 'big dogs', one in particular...
I may 'make an ass' of myself in front of these 'big dogs', but I've had a fair bit of support in the past from those who fear to post their opinions. I'm sure some people agree with what I said, but don't want to post it because they fear what's happened to me here. But, I still post. Because at the end of the day, I've learned a whole lot more from 'making an ass of myself' than anyone else has reading the post and timidly stepping away from it. And some people should watch what they say, you never know who's going to be a 'big dog' before you know it.
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Author: Ken
Date: 2002-11-21 04:55
Morrigan, I'll keep making my $80,000+ a year as 24-year free lance doubler and recording artist and you can keep dreaming of being a real clarinetist and beating your meat.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2002-11-21 05:43
Nice ego battle, truly enjoyable.
I am amazed at how a single mp3 can stir so much dirt...
Ken, I am soooooooo glad to know you are making 80K a year. Now, I've got immense respect for you...
Morrigan, could it be possible to make constructive criticism? People won't jump at you if you post more diplomatic comments. You might even make new cyber buddies, you never know...
Anyways keep posting, it's so much fun!
-S
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Author: Melanie
Date: 2002-11-21 08:41
To get back to the original topic of this thread, I just competed using this piece on Friday (no I didn't win, but I played to the best of my abilitiy-that's what matters). I have listened to both of the recordings posted here. they both had their own merit, and although there are some things that were done differently from what I like. I cannot say that either of these performers did not play well. The technique was great. The whole idea of performing music is to bring your own feelings, emotions, and ideas to the music. With this in mind, of course each performance will be different.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-11-21 11:55
Ken wrote:
>
> Morrigan, I'll keep making my $80,000+ a year as 24-year
> free lance doubler and recording artist and you can keep
> dreaming of being a real clarinetist and ...
Ken,
You know better than to use such phrases. Don't do it again. Ever.
And, while I'm at it - cool off. Same goes to Morrigan and the others on this thread.
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Author: nzdonald
Date: 2002-11-21 13:14
man, that got a bit intense
almost every clarinet player i've heard play both live and on recording..... sounded BETTER live. i've heard Sean Osborne play live twice, and don't remember it vividly (ie i wasn't totally amazed by his genius) but recall being quite satisfied with his tone, intonation and articulation. I'm a really "picky" listener, and if his tone and articulation had been sloppy (i deliberately use that word instead of the more general "bad") i would remember. I'm very glad that there are not home recordings of ME playing on the net, but if there were i supose that i would have the option of getting rid of them (and surely Mr Osborne does?)
but hang on..... if this is just a quick home recording, then isn't that closer to being "live" than a studio recording? So shouldn't it sound BETTER than a CD (according to my theory above)? of course it's not really as simple as that is it? But the bottom line is, i heard him play live, and it was much better than this recording so i'll choose to remember the live performance (admitedly somewhat vaugely).
donald
(actually, i'm impressed that Ken earns so much, and think it's great that people with his experience write on the board, but you didn't need to insult Morrigan- the "beating your meat" bit was quite gross)
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Author: Mark S.
Date: 2002-11-21 15:53
I know it is a little late to jump into this thread, but...
I work on both sides of the microphone as a performer and an engineer (don't let the domain name on this post fool you). When someone like Sean posts an unforgiving practice-room recording, unmodified and unimproved, that is both a gift to us and incredibly brave as an artist. All those "great" performances you cite benefited from professional recording engineers, and are likely filled with edits, punch-ins, artificial reverb, and god knows what else. That is not a indictment, either. That is simply what we do to prepare an agreeable product for our listeners.
Unless you go back to performances from the "good ole' days" where you played the piece down, and played it down again if there were mistakes, nobody is as perfect (or not) as the recording suggest. Listen through the flaws of Sean's post and appreciate the artistry. It isn't the gospel -- you can certainly define your own interpretation according to what you would and would not take from his performance, but that doesn't make him wrong or a weak instrumentalist.
On the matter of judging and being judged, we clarinetists love to be freewheeling with our criticism, but don't like it when the critical eye is turned in our direction. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but please accept that the value of your opinion to others in the trade is going to be proportional to your own demonstrated ability. In the States, we call it "armchair quarterbacking". Unless you are prepared to put on pads and a helmet and go out there and take a hit, be prepared that others may not agree with your apparently non-pro commentary.
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Author: SteveT
Date: 2002-11-21 17:07
If a clarinetest issues a CD or posts a recording on the Web, I don't understand why it is inappropriate for one or more persons on this board to state that they do not like a particular performance and to explain why. This, of course, invites others to disagree and to explain why they like the recording. So long as both groups of people focus on the recording and refrain from personal attacks on each other and on the clarinetest who made the recording, it seems to me that these sorts of discussions are enlightening and worthwhile. Certainly I think that everyone would have to agree that whatever standards are used, some recordings are better than others, either artistically or because of the sound quality of the recording; not all recorded performances are equal.
The notion that one should not criticize a recorded performance unless one could play the piece better seems to me to be incorrect. If that were the case, critics and reviews in general would cease to exist. If an artist releases a recording or posts one on the web, the artist should expect that some people may not like it and that they may criticize it in writing. If they are so sensitive that they can brook no criticism, then perhaps they should stop issuing recordings.
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Author: Mark S.
Date: 2002-11-21 18:42
Certainly, it is a process of natural selection, if you will. The best will survive, and the rest will vanish into obscurity. In a collegial forum such as this, though, we should be a little more thoughtful about what we are saying. I think most of us welcome informed criticism as we learn from it. I've benefited from critique from some of the finest clarinetists of the last century. Those artists earned their stripes and their words carry great weight and authority.
I gather there are many young and aspiring clarinetists who post here, and formulating critical opinions is part of maturing into the players they will become. However, part of that maturation process involves learning to temper the commentary according to the weight their words carries. "I wouldn't buy it" is fine -- that is an opinion based on taste. "his tone sounded generally undeveloped, unsophisticated and absoloutely not a joy to listen to" steps into a new realm, and requires some degree of authority on the subject to carry weight with many participants here. If Larry Combs said that (and I sincerely doubt that he or any similarly credentialed professional would) those words would resonate, loudly, clearly and painfully.
Most importantly, don't run for cover if you take an aggressive stance and get challenged. Put your MP3 out there and let others be the judge. It isn't really fair to cut down Sean's recording, and then say you won't put your own up for fear of similar criticism. The most valuable way to learn how to craft critical commentary is to be on the receiving end of some.
On the more general question of the value of critics, somebody should start a new thread. I bet there are a lot of interesting opinions rattling around here. What happens when the critics get criticized?
Cheers.
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Author: Vic
Date: 2002-11-21 19:10
A critic is one who knows the price of everything, but the value of nothing.
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Author: Vic
Date: 2002-11-21 19:12
Whoops - I should have put quotation remarks around "A critic is one who knows the price of everything, but the value of nothing" since I didn't originate the comment. Unfortunately, I forget who did, but it wasn't me.
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Author: SteveT
Date: 2002-11-21 19:29
Mark S.--
I completely agree with you that one must be careful in phrasing criticism. It is one thing to say that I don't care for clarinetest X's sound on a particular recording because it seemed a tad bright to me; it is another to say that X sounded like a cat being strangled. In the first case, another person might respond that a bright sound really works well with the piece of music involved and that one should listen to another one of X's other CDs to see how he or she handles other types of music. The second statement is, in my opinion, merely intended to provoke. Discussions regarding disagreements over tempi, phrasing, etc., can also be very instructive if the parties are polite to each other.
In terms of responding to carefully phrased criticisms, it is not helpful, in my opinion, to say that the critic has no right to his or her opinion unless he or she can produce a recording that is better than the one being criticized. I also don't think that it necessary for a person to post his or her entire resume before posting a carefully written criticism of a recording. Some of my friends who cannot play any instrument are terrifically knowledgeable about music on the basis of having attended 30 years worth of opera and symphony performances, and I am always interested to hear what they have to say.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-11-21 19:32
Vic said: "A critic is one who knows the price of everything, but the value of nothing" since I didn't originate the comment. Unfortunately, I forget who did, but it wasn't me.
Oscar Wilde (who also said the same thing about being a cynic)....GBK
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Author: Mark S.
Date: 2002-11-21 20:12
SteveT,
I think you made my point. Your friends have 30 years worth of listening experience to draw on in making their comments. I would say if they aren't deaf, that qualifies as a pretty solid education on what it is we do. That's a terrific resource.
OK, we beat the life outta this one. Ta ta.
M.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2002-11-21 20:52
Darn,you've done it again!
This thread has become civilised ;->
-S
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Author: Won Kim
Date: 2002-11-22 03:24
THIS IS ALL Ralph G's fault!!!!!!!! haha just kidding
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2002-11-22 03:56
Sure, blame me... first I sounded like crud sight-reading Mozart's Symphony No. 40 in my community orchestra tonight, now I get the blame for everyone here feuding like cats in a laundry sack. Heck, and I LIKE Sean's recording. At least it made for some interesting reading.
Next topic: who here doesn't like parfait?
--Ralph (who's now looking seriously into a Pomarico crystal mouthpiece to darken my too-bright tone when playing the Mozart)
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2002-11-22 03:52
If you don't already have one try a fabric ligature before you invest big $$ in a new mouthpiece.
-S
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2002-11-22 13:06
I tried a Rovner once and it didn't seem to make a difference -- but it was only a brief trial. I should get one anyway to keep in the case.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-11-23 02:23
No comment. And get those cameras outta my face! No more questions!
*Pay no attention to my ramblings. Oh, and don't take me too seriously, cause I do and it'd be great if everyone else wouldn't. Much appreciated =]
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Author: Ken
Date: 2002-11-24 03:25
Mark Charette wrote:
Ken,
You know better than to use such phrases. Don't do it again. Ever.
--Mark, I sincerely apoloigize to you and the BBoard for my outburst; Morrigan a complete a**hole not withstanding, I'll do my best not to let it happen again. v/r Ken
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Author: Ken
Date: 2002-11-24 03:38
Sylvain wrotw: Ken, I am soooooooo glad to know you are making 80K a year. Now, I've got immense respect for you...
--have not respect for anyone you haven't heard their recordings of our seen first hand. I'll be happy to send you any of 22 CDs I've recorded, solo or group, jazz or legit. Contact me at drjazzz@cox.net and I'll back up my words.
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