 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dan
Date: 2002-11-19 16:49
Hi everyone. I have made a very recent observation that I wanted to share with all of you. I simply wanted to know which pad sealed the best with the least amount of pressure on the pad.
So I took all the keys off an old Selmer wooden clarinet, lower section, plugged all the holes except one with neoprene rubber plugs and did a pressure check. Absolutely air tight. My pressure gauge stayed at 3 oz per sq in for a long, long time.
I positioned the lower section so that it was absolutely horizonal with a 16mm hole on the top, again making sure the hole was aligned as perfectly vertically centered as I could make it.
Using a 2.5 oz weight, I centered a 16mm Valentino and pressure checked it. It took 2 second for it to go from 3 oz to zero. I next put on a Lucien Deluxe and it also took 2 seconds to go to zero. I next put on a Ferree's Dejure and it did a little better...it took 4 seconds to reach zero. I then put on an Ed Myers Soft synthetic and my jaw practically hit the floor!! It took approximately 30 seconds to go from 3 oz to zero!!
The company owner, Rex, has only had this new pad on the market for approximately a year. Because it's very soft, it behaves like a soft felt bladder pad, and, because it's synthetic, it's impervious to water, gasoline, oil, etc. I've been told the foam meets high military specs.
Needless to say, I'm installing Ed's pads on all of my clarinets.
With fairness to the Valentino pad, I do know how to put a nice indented ring around the pad. This does increase the sealing somewhat but in my observations with my pressure gauge, the Ed Myers synthetic pad won hands down every single time.
For more information, Rex can be reached at 1-800-228-9188.
I am not affiliated with his company in any way but am very glad I ran across his website while surfing the net.
Just thought you'd like to know...
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-11-19 17:02
It is very possible, given your experiment, that the Ed Myers pad is making up for small tone hole surface irregularities or slight pad angle displaements better that either the standard or Valentino pads.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2002-11-19 17:33
Hi Dan;
Nice experiment, but I'm not jumping yet.
A few questions:
1.Do the pads "click" when closed, like other synthetic pads?
2.Do the pads make a release(kissing-like)sound when opened?
3.Do they stay in, or shift around after they are installed properly
4.What is the actual composition of the synthetic material?
Just a few concerns, I'm curious about new products.
Good luck with your new pads,
JJM
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Author: Dan
Date: 2002-11-19 18:24
Hi John, the foam is 0.060" thick and it's very easy to compress it flat. What's really interesting is to watch it spring up instantly after the compression.
Now the answers to your questions:
1. No, there is no clicking sound when closed. What it sounds like when closed is a "soft" thumping when a normally closed key is allowed to suddenly close as when a finger slips off the key.
2. No noticeable release sound when opened.
3. When hot glued in, depending upon the temp characteristics of the glue, they are there to stay permanently.
4. As to the actual composition of the material, I cannot help you with this one. Rex is the creator of it and should be able to tell you (unless it's a trade secret).
One extra note you might find interesting...when installed, the pad is perfectly flat. By the next day, you'll notice a very nice slightly indented ring where it closes over the hole. I began to wonder if this compression would continue as the days went by, but it hasn't. The initial compression simply stayed the same.
Also, I've found that it's best to set each spring at around 2 oz of pad pressure. Increasing the pad pressure will increase the ring compression but won't increase pressure check length of time. I believe this is good because the keys are far easier to push down and this, I believe, would make it easier for kids to play. Besides that, I enjoy a light touch when playing.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-11-19 18:58
You did a lot of work and spent a considerable amount of time on your experiments, Dan. How wonderful and unselfish of you to share with us. Your well controlled and repeatable observations are very interesting and informative to say the least. I'd like to extend a personal, "Thank you".
Also curious and interested, how can we purchase Ed Myers pads? Do we call to place a request? Can you give us a link to the Website?
Have you already installed them on your instruments or are you at this time intending to?
Mark's and John's observations also raise the question as to whether Ed Myers pads are any better at adapting to irregularities than other brands. All pads adapt to some extent but about 10%(-+) of tone holes I examine need attention before *any* pad will seat well.
I imagine your post will attract many responses and questions. Before the gates swing wide I offer again a heartfelt, "Thanks".
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Author: Dan
Date: 2002-11-19 19:30
Hi Ron, thank you for your nice response. Yes, I have spent more hours than I care to mention. My interest is primarily synthetic because, IMO, soon or later, a bladder pad will have to be replaced. Aging, moisture, lack of proper drying maintenance by kids will all shorten a bladder pads life.
I've installed quite a few Valentino's, but began to notice problems with them. Yes, IMO, they act pretty much like switches. Many players prefer the bladder because of better slurring or smoother legato between notes. Also, I noticed, that I had to put a little bit extra pressure on the Valentino while playing before it would seal properly. I would inspect the pad and find a nice slightly indented ring but it still wouldn't quite seal without the extra pressure. So...I started looking around.
You can only get the pads directly from Ed Myers at 1-800-228-
9188. Kathy usually answers the phone. Their #440 is synthetic with a cork backing and their #444 has a hard, stiff solid back which I prefer for the larger holes. The synthetics come only in 0.110" thickness.
One added note...they are very sensitive to direct flame heat. I personally use a resistance pad cup heating unit to install them. It's a way of heating the cup without the use of a flame or hot air. Both Ed Myers and Votaw Tool Co (1-800-894-8665) sell them.
Another problem I had with the Valentino was in getting the two large 16mm pads to close simultaneously with the same pressure. This I found to be very frustrating. Installing the Ed Myers synthetic pads totally blew this problem away.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2002-11-19 20:51
Thanks, Dan
You've answered some of my main concerns about the synthetic pads by
Myers.
I was considering them for my own use in the recording studio. As you know, extraneous sounds can be very annoying, and clicking or popping sounds downright destructive to a date.
So, this pad may be an answer to some real problems. I'll have to check further with Ed to see if I can have a full set properly installed on one of my clarinets for a full tryout.
Thanks for all your research,
JJM
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-11-19 21:10
Thank you for you patient and quick response, Dan.
Almost like clockwork, the ugly old subject of pad devouring mites comes up. (See Willie's post, six items below As mites forage for felt, for whatever reason(s) they do it (personally, I don't Care why they do it!), they destroy everything, most notably the skin, in their way. I've been recently dismayed to find new bladder pads with holes in them, though I keep them in a tightly closed partitioned plastic box... at least I thought until now the lid was a tight seal. I've since been putting a few grains of crunched up mothballs in there. That's about my only recourse now. It'd be curtains for me if my wife discovered I'd put that combination in the freezer... lemme tell ya, just imagine... =8( ]
Synthetic membrane pads possibly as a mite barrier, in addition to a self preservation measure, might be a very significant reason to consider them too.
I never got the hang of direct flame heating, using by preference, as you do, a resistance unit. No problem there. Thanks for the additional cautionary tip though.
Do you find .110" a little on the thin side? Does the thickness work well for you for what you do? I suppose it's a good(average?) thickness since you only have one to 'choose' from :] My main interest also is kids' horns, mainly Bundys, Vitos, a few Conns and B&H. These pads may be the answer to a lot of concerns we all have -- 'Ordinary' students are not the most conscientious about care and feeding of their instruments.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-11-19 21:27
Have you tried "EvaTex" synthetic pads, from Music Center (previously Pisoni) , which come in two densities and two thicknesses. Maybe this is where Ed is getting them.
Like Ron, I appreciate your experimenting and offering of results.
Now!
If alignment of a tone hole and key cup is perfect, and the tone hole is perfectly flat, then even a perfectly flat metal pad would seal. This concept is used in taps with ceramic seals. However this is not the case with instruments, and never will be as long as we use materials that 'move', and have imperfect manufacture.
The wonderful quality of felt in a traditional pad is that it is NOT elastic - that it 'beds' in to accommodate irregularities. Any pad material that has elasticity (including metal, any form of rubber, most foams and plastics) demands that the tone holes are perfect and that the pad mounting is perfect. Otherwise, after the pad is lightly closed, it must be pressed harder to accommodate imperfections. The extra pressure is to overcome the elasticity of the pad.
This extra pressure is not a good feel for the player. I think your test was so successful because the Myers pad was the most 'squishy'. To take the argument to an (absurd) extreme, you would have had equal success using the flat surface of a jelly as a pad, but who wants to play with this jelly feel?
With quality felt, a pad can be 'bedded in' to a greater or lesser extent, to permanently accommodate the irregularities. Then this extra pressure is not needed by the player. I think you test was unfair on the felt pad in that no bedding process was employed prior to the test. Therefore then test did not represent the real situation on an instrument.
For a variety of reasons, pads are more critical with flutes. Many flute manufacturers are slovenly enough to produce significantly non-level tone holes. Then to make the flute playable they use very squishy, somewhat elastic pads, so that if a player presses firmly enough the pads will eventually squash and seal, this process occurring every time the player presses a key. No accomplished flute player would tolerate having to do this, perhaps because in fast passages there is not time to press firmly. I think you test would have worked admirably with one of these low quality, squishy pads.
It is not only sealing that is important for a pad, but also 'feel'. A squishy feel has never been accepted by top players. It is relatively easy to get a good seal with a squishy pad, but is this the feel that a player wants?
I have tried to outline the need for non-elastic accommodation in pads. Another serious issue with pads is how they cope with the fact that keys hinge from one side. Because of this the far side of a pad (the hinge side) gets far less compression than the near side when it is pressed closed. For a pad to be reliable, the greater compression on the near side must not be such that permanent deformation (compression) takes place on this side only, otherwise the near side eventually, with use, does not seal. This is a common condition with the larger normally-open pads on a clarinet, especially when the pads are not installed with an appropriate amount of seating. This suggests that as well as the above-mentioned non-elastic accommodation, a certain very small degree of elasticity is needed, with this elasticity operating under the typical forces used during playing, which of course differs for different people. Your test did not involve a key hinging from one side.
In summing up:
- Most pads seal well in perfect situations.
- Perfect situations seldom exist.
- Pads need to 'bed in', in a permanent sense, to accommodate imperfections.
- Felt pads need to be properly bedded before they can be expected to seal.
- Squishy pads seal better in poor situations, but have an unacceptable feel.
In spite of what I have written, I too believe that the days of traditional pads are numbered. (Goodbye to kilo$ of traditional stocks!) However the replacement material will have to behave very similarly to felt to accommodate imperfections. What we are hunting for is this plus cheap manufacture, plus a long-lasting, airproof, non-sticky surface.
Perhaps this is it. But more and different tests, especially long term, are required.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-11-19 21:52
Velly interesting, all comments/questions/answers. I am presently using a Valentino on my bass-neck reg. key, and at times put them on kid's horns I work on, as sealing and compression-recovery is reasonably good, IMHO. As to what syn/polymer the Meyers is, I'd guess a specially formulated polyurethane, having done a bit of patent research re: those "slow-recovery" mattresses, for invalids with skin problems. Don't know about melting temps, the older PVC pads melted easily! If they have a patent issued on it [I'll look], its public info, so maybe they will tell us! Also TKS, Don
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Author: Dan
Date: 2002-11-19 23:05
Thank you John, ron b, Gordon and all the others for your informative responses.
There are so many questions to answer that I think I'll just start out first with a general statement. If anyone wants an "upfront" inspection of any of Ed's pads, just give them a call and they will send you a fairly large bunch of samples of all of their synthetic pads. This is a standard business practice of theirs. There's nothing like having it in your own hands and inspecting it under a magnifying glass.
To John Moses: I suggest giving Ed Meyers a call and ask them to make up a "set" of pads for your clarinet. Just give them the sizes and they won't charge extra for presorting. (The pads are around 40 cents a piece.) I suspect that if you tell them who you are and that you do professional studio work, they would probably send you a set for free. (What better way for them to get word out about their pads than for professionals to use them in their work!)
To ron b:I understand your concern about the 0.110" standard size. IMO, the 9 and 11mm sizes shouldn't be too much of a problem.
The 15 and 16mm sizes will be a little bit more challenging. However, Rex has the perfect solution for everyone: he goes out of his way to custom make pads for anyone at no extra charge!! I told them that I was having trouble installing the pads with the particle cork backing and they suggested customizing a different backing. At first, I told them no because I didn't want to pay any extra and they convinced me that they do this all the time at no extra cost!! I suggest talking to Rex (the owner). He's very accommodating. Tell him you need it in 0.120", 0.130", or whatever thickness you need and they will be glad to custom make it for you. If you want it beveled, they can do that too. (I believe the beveling does cost a few pennies more per pad.)
To Gordon: thank you for your in-depth response. I understand your "squishy" statement very well. I believe I have an answer that you might find tempting. Rex told me that he was more than willing to change the foam thickness to whatever I wanted. Like I said, he's very accommodating. If 0.060" is too "squishy", I suggest telling him that you want it at 0.050" or 0.040". He will make it up any way you want it. (Do you know of any other pad manufacturer that will do that?)
One extra thought on the "squishy" feeling...once the compression ring sets in overnight on a normally closed key, IMO, there is no squishiness. As for normally open hole pads, the hot air Valentino trick of forming the compression ring works very well with these pads also. Without the compression ring, I agree that they can feel a little "squishy".
Concerning the "hinge from one side": all I can say is that the slight compression rings around the Ed Myers synthetic pads on my test clarinet are equal all around and have remained so with those on "hinged closed" pads.
Your comment on felt pads may be totally correct. I really cannot respond to this concern because my specialty is with synthetics only.
As to where they get their pads, it is my understanding that they make all of their own pads in house.
Thank you for mentioning "EvaTex". I know nothing about them but I do know that I will investigate them also.
Again, thanks to all for your responses.
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Author: Dan
Date: 2002-11-20 00:45
Hello again, I need to make a correction. When I installed the Ed Myers pad, there was NO compression ring and the sealing time from 3oz to zero was 30 seconds. Now that a compression ring has fully formed, the sealing time from 3oz per sq in to zero is 60 seconds.
Just wanted to keep you informed...
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2002-11-20 02:33
All,
I've known Rex for years. He's a great guy and a good repair tech as well. He has some excellent tools. His web site is <www.edmyersoftx.com> Also, I'm not sure that Rex <i>makes</i> this pad, but rather supplies it. I could be wrong on that. I'm quite sure it has been around for more than a year as I was given samples <i> a long time ago</i>. I was not, at the time, overly impressed with it and gave the remaining samples away. I can't recall the reasons at this writing, but <i>I think</i> that the cork backing separated too easily. I may ask Rex for a set and try them out again. I'm originally from the "show me" state. So I'll reserve judgment after I've tried them out, again, for myself.
jbutler
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2002-11-20 02:35
Sorry folks, the web address did not show up on the previous post, but it is:
http://www.edmyersoftx.com
jbutler
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Author: Karel
Date: 2002-11-21 04:20
It is a long time since I have heard mention of "Gortex" pads. Have they vanished?
Karel.
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2002-11-25 14:21
Dan
you wrote: "Also, I've found that it's best to set each spring at around 2 oz of pad pressure. "
I'm just happy when the spring has enough pressure so the pad doesn't blow out of the hole when I am playing. I have hands like a gorilla, so I don't worry about too much spring pressure. However, I would like to play better than a gorilla, someday. How do you measure spring pressure?
I work on metal clarinets. Mostly, I use the white kit pads (that I get from Ed Meyers). I think manufacturers used thinner pads back in the 1920s-1940s. I use some cork pads. I hope you try both in your next set of experiments. (Talk to Mark C. about having the official pad testing page on Klarinet.)
Twice I have found synthetic pads in a horn I was restoring. The pads still looked good, but some of the indentations had become permanent and didn't seal well. Also, I have heard that sometimes stuff gets into the surface and can't be cleaned out. (Not that you can magically restore leather or skin, either.)
Pads clamped against metal tone holes might change differently over time than they would if clamped over wood tone holes.
I wonder if you could make an apparatus that would clamp pads over simulated tone holes for extended periods of time and see if there was some way to test aging. (They make rats smoke cigarettes. Maybe we can train them to play little clarinets.)
P.S. The nice lady I chat with at Ed Myers knows a whole lot more about repairing clarinets than I do. That is a big plus for a beginner trying to choose yet another tool.
PPS I love my volton tool. I have one bad eye and one very bad eye. I could never tell whether I had the key cup over the flame right. I burned up a lot of pads of every type.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-11-26 10:35
Karel wrote "It is a long time since I have heard mention of 'Gortex' pads. Have they vanished?"
No. Nusic Center makes some beautiful Gore-Tex pads, but they don't seem to be mentioned on their web site. I received samples a few weeks ago.
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Author: Dan
Date: 2002-11-26 15:01
My thanks to all for the wonderful posts.
To Jim Lande: I appreciated your post very much. I was going to answer your pressure measuring question personally, but decided to just take the risk and reveal my rather "unscientific" methods I use while repadding clarinets. Because I'm simi-retired and living on a budget that doesn't allow me to afford the "best" equipment around, I have to use my immagination to come up with things that are affordable and "fairly" accurate.
As to how I measure the pressure on the pads: I knew pad pressure was important because too much would cause too deep a compression ring so I began to look around. Everything in the Grainger catalog was rather expensive and besides, I really couldn't find anything that would measure just a few ounces and provide incremental readings between whole ounce measurements. I kept thinking...if I could just find some kind of small food scale, like the type dieters use in measuring the quantity of food they eat, I might be able to solve my problem. My local hardware store didn't have anything; Sears didn't have what I wanted; finally, at another small hardware store, a fellow brought out a rather small, 3" X 3" diet/kitchen scale that had a small plastic section on top with two wide side rails leading down into the scale. And to my surprise, centered on the edge of the top section was a small hole. For $9.50, I felt I had a winner here. So how do I measure pad pressure? I simply run a string from the hole to a stiff wire shaped very much like a fish hook. I place it at the outer edge of the cup and simply lift up the scale until I see the pad cup begin to move upward. Then I quickly glance at the scale and note the reading. Yes, I know, it's very unscientific, and the % accuracy isn't the best, but...it works for me. (The scale comes from Measurement Specialties, 80 Little Falls Road, Fairfield, NJ, and their phone # is 1-973-808-1819. Hopefully, someone there should be able to tell you if a store near you sells this scale.)
Now, as to how I measure the pressure within the clarinet. Because I sensed that I needed a specialty instrument, I looked into the Grainger catalog and found what I was looking for. What I found was a 2 1/2" air/gas pressure meter that measures very accurately from zero to 20 oz/per sq. in. (Part #2C637 for $36.40). (Please keep in mind that you have to have a business license or at least be registered in your town or city to do business with Grainger.)
So, how do I do it? I use 1/4" vinyl tubing from the gauge to one section of a "T" coupler. The second section goes directly to the end section of the clarinet through a large Neoprene plug. (This was rather difficult to drill out and I found out that a "wood" drill does the task the best. The tubing is pushed into the plug and the fit is very, very tight. Also, while checking a section of the clarinet, the open holes ALWAYS have neoprene plugs because I have found that no matter how hard you press your fingers against the holes, the seal is not perfect and the needle descends.) The third section of the "T" runs to a very inexpensive and small turn off valve (cost me $3.50 at Grainger's). Since I haven't devised a good hand pump yet, I simply blow air into a long section of tubing leading to the turn off valve. I quickly shut off the valve and then just simply watch the meter.
I appologize for the long post but hope that this info is useful to you and perhaps some others.
I am very much interested in the techniques of others, but since this may fall into the "trade secrets" catagory, I'll understand if there aren't any further posts.
P.S. The J.L. Smith & Co. sells a wide variety of neoprene plugs and they are quite inexpensive (1-800-659-6073). Mark usually answers the phone and he as well as the owner are very nice to deal with.
Dan
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-11-26 20:07
Aquarium pumps are a nice, gentle source of low pressure air (and you can also buy very inexpensive needle valves at the aquarium store, too!)
Mark C., Fishkeeper ...
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Author: Dan
Date: 2002-11-26 21:53
Thanks Mark, your idea sounds like the ideal solution. Now I won't have to keep sterilizing the vinyl tubing.
Dan
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