 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-11-16 23:05
I was happy to win "Buffet C LP clarinet, antique, 1920s" on e-Bay, but the clarinet turn out to be B HP. "HP" mark is clearly visible and I suspect that the seller intentionally lied about it. I've asked for a refund, but got "Sorry, I thought it was C LP" What should I do??
Description:
WOODEN BUFFET CLARINET. This is a "C clarinet", it is not a regular Bb clarinet. It measures 22-1/4" long without the mouthpiece. Instrument dates from the 1920s and is very rare. I have never seen a C clarinet like it before.
It is in modern pitch (A=440) so it can play with modern instruments. As well as the length, it has "LP-C" stamped on the upper tendon to indicate this. It has a wrap-around register key and a "donut key". The donut key allows the extra "fork Bb" fingering which you don't find on modern instruments.
The wood is in fairly good condition. All joints are stamped with the Buffet Crampon logo. The bell reads "Buffet Crampon, made for Williams Toronto". It will need a few pads replaced as it is an older instrument and has not been played in a while. The barrel has a small hairline crack in it. They keywork is in very good condition and looks to be silver/german-silver. There is a sculpted/fitted case with this instrument - marked with "V. Kohlert's Sons, Factory of Musical Instruments, Grazlitz, Czechoslovakia".
If you wanted to play this instrument, it would require a bit of work/TLC but not that much. For a collector this is clarinet is very fine and rare example of a Buffet Crampon clarinet from this period. It is very rare because it is a "C clarinet."
I am happy to ship to both the USA and Canada. Buyer pays shipping costs. I will do my best to provide a number of shipping options for you. I accept payment via PayPal and by Money Order. Best of luck!
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Author: Ken
Date: 2002-11-17 00:02
Not clear on your real intention. Are you requesting personal advice on a sale gone awry or advertising here for sale?
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2002-11-17 00:11
I would return it and demand he send you the low pitch clarinet or refund the money and both ways shipping costs. Also contact the auction company. Hopefully you paid via Pay Pal and your charge card... stop the charge with your card and send the fellow a nice note informing him that the horn is on the way back to him, the payment has been stopped and you are billing him for the return shipping.
There is a difference between an honest mistake and deceit. You can tell the difference by how hard it is to get him to make it right.
This guy is a bit goofy, he set his reserve at the start price... this shows he doesn't understand how an auction works. It is likely that he doesn't understand that he described and priced a desireable clarinet but had an almost useless one to push off on you. A little kind explination to him that he is bound by the rules of the auction (and probably by law) to deliver what he advertised or return your costs.
"It is in modern pitch (A=440) so it can play with modern instruments. As well as the length, it has "LP-C" stamped..." How much plainer could he be?
<A href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=919798307">This clarinet's auction.</a>
Just IMHO TH
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-11-17 00:12
To add to Ken's query, is the description yours or the one copied from the description on e-Bay? If the instrument you received is not as advertised and described and is actually stamped B-HP you can contact e-Bay and file charges againsst the seller if he is a registered e-bay seller. If not, you may have a problem in recovering your money. On e-Bay it's always "caveat emptor"!
Bob A
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-11-17 02:06
Bob Arney,
Yes, the description is the one I copied from the description on e-Bay
Terry Horlick,
Yes, I used PayPal for this transaction, but the funds came from my banking account and not my charge card (I think). Also, I've sent an e-mail to the seller.
My e-mail to the seller.
>>>>>>>I would like to receive a refund on the "Buffet C clarinet, antique, 1920s, very rare" (Item # 919798307) that I purchased from you on e-Bay. It's not a modern pitch instrument as you indicated in your description. It’s "High Pitch" clarinet. "HP" is barely visible on the UJ and clearly visible on the lower joint. Also this instrument is not in the key of C. I've checked it with my tuner. This clarinet has B HP pitch. Also the barrel is not original and it doesn't have Buffet marking as you indicated. I have no need for "High Pitch" instrument in any key, which defeats the purpose of my purchase.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=919798307
The above listed problems were not in your e-Bay description of the instrument. Your cooperation would be appreciated.???????
Regards,
Vytas
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-11-17 02:15
I don't know how these question marks got there at the end of the e-mail. There are NO ???? marks. Sorry
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2002-11-17 02:28
The most you will recover through eBay is $125.
This will take a MINIMUM of 6 months (eBay is on the side of the sellers... their source of funding) if they rule in your favor.
Unless you can take a drive to shake down the seller, you may well not have many choices.
It's getting to the point that Escrow is good protection on purchases greater than $250 USD.
Sorry to hear about your misfortune... it reminds me of the Tenor sax I purchased that had been cut in half at the bow.
When confronted, the seller declaimed inexperience...
"You mean rivets aren't normal in a saxophone?"
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Author: ken
Date: 2002-11-17 18:19
Terry Horlick wrote: "...and send the fellow a nice note informing him that the horn is on the way back to him"
--Unless Terry meant to "send the horn back" figuratively or as a means of putting pressure to bear I certainly wouldn't recommend actually returning the horn, then you'd have NOTHING for your money. Not to mention have no material evidence (besides a sales receipt) if it ever went to small claims court (oh dear, he's in Ontario Canada). If the horn was back in his possession who knows WHAT he'd do with it.
Vytas, very sorry the instrument didn't pan out. As previously stated in the blurb, the seller writes and AS FACT, "it is in modern pitch (A=440) so it can play with modern instruments. As well as the length, it has "LP-C" stamped on the upper tendon to indicate this"...if the stamping is different as you this is clearly misinformation and verifiable. If it's a B and not C pitched horn that's easily substantiated. If it was I and really wanted my money back I'd play politician for as long as I could and keep the emails/dialogue open and pleasant. If he's an honest businessman or truly made a mistake you might be able to appeal to him logically on a number of levels. It'll be tough to prove cohersion unless it can be proven he has a track record.
Reference his return address on the packaging. If he's a flake I'd begin sending him written letters ALL of them "return receipt" that he must be served and sign for in person. This will at least begin establishing a "paper trail" and back up you emails...hopefully you won't scare him off.
DOCUMENT. Make multiple copies of anything where pen hits paper as well as any verbal exchanges...especially correspondence from Ebay. Acquire this guy’s telly if you don't have it and call him...check, you never know it could be listed. I don't recommend this for anyone else, but if you speak with him I'd secretly record the conversation. You could never reveal you did but if you ever wound up in court you'd be more precise on the quotes...if everything goes well, be sure to destroy it. Always get full names and job titles! Other options: get the name and address of the Ontario (U.S. equivalent) State Attorney's Office, call and send a follow-up letter. If it's clear this guy is going to rip you off, get the phone number of the Ontario Police Department and report it. They might laugh at you but it'll still be documented and you've covered that angle. You might not ever see your money again but you never know unless you ask who this guy really is and his background. He might have a record down to the ground and it could prove a good lead for anything else he's potentially involved in.
If you really want your money back or some "legal" form of restitution, be vigilant; in the end it might turn out you'll have to settle for $500 of "satisfaction". v/r Ken
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-11-17 23:08
I think that there was intentional gross misrepresentation. "HP" marking is clearly visible, but the seller says "I could make it out read "C LP". By the way, there is no "C" or "B" marking on the instrument, only "HP". In the description he states "It is in modern pitch (A=440) so it can play with modern instruments" but now he says: "Because the instrument needed padwork, it was not possibel for me to "blow a few notes" against a tuner to verify it's tuning".
Oh well...
e-mail from the seller:
>>>>>>>>
[Private correspondence snipped out. See next posting.]
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-11-18 03:34
Vytas,
Posting private communication is a gross violation of "netiquette". Please refrain from doing so again.
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2002-11-18 20:39
What about the bad feedback option available on e bay. It may make others think twice about buying from this seller.
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Author: Douglas
Date: 2002-11-18 22:12
We have had similar dealings...the best route is to contact PayPal. Even though this came out of your checking account, Paypal can help you if the sale was fraudulent. Contact them immediately.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-11-20 21:59
I've contacted PayPal and filed fraud complain.
E-Bay allows to file fraud complain one moth after transaction date.
If all this fails I'll contact the Ontario Police Department.
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