 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2002-11-16 02:43
Opinions on using 80 weight gear oil (not motor oil) on keywork? I tested it on a metal clarinet and it quiet the keys down and stayed where it was put. I'm sure it would thicken at low temperatures, but, most people play at room temp.
Mark
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2002-11-16 03:38
Various people have posted information on key oil over the years. Search and learn. Oil does a couple of things, including quiet the keys a bit. The problem, however, is that some of the other functions are more important: to prevent wear, to increase speed of the keywork, and to prevent rust. I know nothing but what I have read on this board. I seem to recall that there are many possible additives that help the oil protect the metal for longer. I suspect that the heavy oil is more likely to eventually gum up the keys and slow them, and less likely to penetrate all the way along those long metal hinge screws. It may not protect against rust as well or as long.
You say that you are experimenting on a metal clarinet. Well tut, tut. (If you reply that you were planning to turn it into a lamp, anyway.....grrrrr)
I experiment on the hinges of my glasses. I used to oil them every 3 or 6 months with sewing machine oil or with Holton key oil. I sweat profusely and ultimately, the hinges seize up. A year and a half ago, I bought Dr Omar Henderson's (AKA Dr. Slick) key oil. So far, I have needed to oil them twice. FYI, the doctor is a for real chemist who researches a limited number of clarinet related supplies. And he is a is sponsor of Klarinet.
As the hinge screws rust, they wear faster. For that matter, if the lubrication is weak, the bearing serfaces will wear faster, too. More rust means more bother getting off keys and sometimes more damage. More wear leads to 'wear out'.
Oh, and more wear means a looser mechanism and more key noise. By the way, a good tech likely can find a few minor adjustments, some places to put slivers of cork, etc, and quiet the beast. Best luck.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-11-16 04:17
Another thing oil is "supposed" to do: Gather dust. Whether you like it or not. This is why my instruments get oiled only after cleaning the part that's getting the oil, unless it's an evergency and something is just plain slammed shut. If it's immobile and should move, sure, oil it now. But do go back very soon and remove that key, clean it thoroughly, and oil it properly. MOO.
Regards,
John
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2002-11-16 05:40
80 weight is really heavy and viscous (kind of like honey)and is used in auto diferentials, outboard motor gear boxes and other places with larger gaps between surfaces (like meshing gears) where the parts are pretty much bathed in it all the time, and the parts are subjected to high speed and torque. It also has a fairly strong odor which I find objectionable on my hands, collects dust as mentioned, and is somewhat sticky. (I just changed the oil in my outboard's gearcase, I really hate the stuff!)
A light oil made for the purpose would likely do a much better job.
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2002-11-16 12:44
The reason I experimented on a metal clarinet is because I am not sure of the oils effect on wood. On a metal clarinet you can just wipe it off and start over. I have several metal clarinets that I have restored and love them all. My current project is a Silver King. (the one with the double wall barrel and bell) This one is supposed to be loud. I wonder what it will sound like with a Vandoren M15 mouthpiece and #4 reeds. It is said that it can hold it's own against the brass.
Mark
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-11-16 15:48
Mark, opinions on key oil are similar to those for auto engine oil, i.e. everybody has one. I had a friend once who said he never changed the oil in his car and it lasted pretty long but that doesn't prove anything. One thing I believe from experience is that you won't go wrong with Doc's products. But,hey, experiment to your heart's delight....you can always get another horn.
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Author: William
Date: 2002-11-16 16:00
"I am not sure of the oils effect on wood."
If your key oil is getting on the wood, you are using far too much. When I have to oil my posts, I use a needle dipped in oil to apply the correct amount. Even then, sometimes toomuch gets transferred and wiping becomes necessary. But leaking onto the wood???--that is a clear sign of an excessive amount of oil being deposited on the post and being left to run.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-11-16 23:10
Wm's point is well taken, dont over-oil, most of us agree on what "wood oils" should be. As far as I can see, the "usual" key oils are perfectly suitable. My earlier work with automotive oils suggests to me that a small concentration of "brightstock" [heavier oils] is a good idea, so I add a few drops of SAE 40 to a bottle to give longer lube-protection, seems to work fine! Modern oils contain additives whereby no gumming problems occur. Don
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-11-16 23:58
Several points:
1. Lubrication:
The lubrication (reduction of friction and hence wear) demands in a clarinet are probably very small. Any oil will probably do the job. Rust prevention, silent action, non-gumming-up, slow evaporation, and no reaction with silver are probably more significant considerations.
2. Additives
The vast majority of readily available oils are designed for applications where there is very high pressure (gear boxes), &/or high temperature changes (engines), &/or corrosive pollutants (products of combustion in engines), &/or a need to absorb and carry moisture (condensation in oil sumps, and product of combustion), and carry away the microscopic wear particles. These issues are not relevant for musical instruments. To cope with these, additives are put into these oils. It is these very additives that cause problems for musical instruments. It is the additives that are largely responsible for the gummy deposits, "varnish", which stop pivots working and prevent capillary entry of replenishing oil. It is the sulphur additive that reacts with the silver plating on keys to make it go black near every pivot. So what we need is an oil that has NO unnecessary additives, and only appropriate or necessary additives. One cannot determine additives by guess or by looking at the oil.
3. Viscosity:
This determines the degree to which the mechanical noises of the mechanism are silenced. Viscous oils dampen noise, increase resistance to motion, and reduce the capillary action we may depend on to get the oil distributed through a pivot tube.
A very viscous oil will make a key sluggish only if the pivot has a very large surface area, such as an E/B key with a pivot rod right through it. Few models have such pivot tubes. Over-viscosity is more of a concern with flutes, and particularly with oboes.
The ideal viscosity requirement for noise reduction is really considerably higher for pivot point screws, where there is a very small area of contact, than for pivot tubes where there is a far greater area of contact.
A viscous oil cannot be expected to move through a typical pivot tube by capillary action if it is applied to only the ends of the pivot tube. However it is ideal if the instrument has been disassembled. Hence a different, more viscous oil, may be more suitable for the technician doing an overhaul, than for the player who does not dismantle, but is just 'topping up' the oil that is there by application into the 'cracks'. BTW it is unlikely that a technician dismantles for a routine lubrication, so lower viscosity would be used for the pivot tubes.
4. Other factors:
- Rust prevention.
- Resistance to migration to surfaces where it is not wanted.
- Slowness of evaporation. (All oils slowly evaporate, some slower than others)
- Toxicity. Some does get on our fingers, so it may well be ingested.
- It should not react with any of the surfaces it contacts, e.g. sulphur additives turning silver black. Some additives may also react with the nickel or copper in the key metal. Many lubricants are formulated specifically for steel.
It is difficult to get reliable information comparing these aspects of lubricants.
All things considered, and after some discussion with a lubricants expert (tribologist) tribologist, I have settled on two viscosities of Alisyn, totally synthetic key oil, only the thicker one being used for clarinets, available through Ferrees. For point pivots, and very 'sloppy' tube pivots I have been using a higher viscosity lubricant that seems to have similar requirements, lathe bed oil, Castol's Magna BD68, partly that the tribologist said it would be OK, and partly because I had bulk of it anyway. In the near future I am likely to change this lathe bed oil for an even higher viscosity, synthetic oil from
Kraus, stock number 1101.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-11-17 03:39
Gordon- a worthy treatise on oils - one for the reference book. Alisyn oils made by the Aerospace Lubricants Co. (ALC), Columbus Ohio are worthy candidates for oiling musical instruments and are sold as a secondary market to their aerospace and racing (both cars and boats) markets. They list more than 100 lubricant products - some with named uses (musical instruments) and others under Military Specification Numbers (Mil Spec.) Like many niche markets they charge very high prices (whatever the market will bear) for these named speciality oils when they come out of the same bulk barrel as the Mil Spec product. With a lot of investigation into NASA's lubricant specification data one can ferret out the oils and lubricants sold for musical instruments in the more generic Mil Spec listings of ALC and other Mil Spec manufacturers and save some money. Another test not too often performed is compatibility with wood and evaporation residue testing. The latter can be determined from the NASA data but wood compatibility must be empirically tested. You should not over-oil but some seepage at joints is sometimes inevitable and certain oils will "rot" wood.
There are many opinions on the type of oil to use and tradition - the Nye clock oil school still persists. An interesting note is that the original Nye clock oil was made with whale oil (another of Nature's marvelous molecular structures) but has recently been superceeded by a plant derived oil formulation with many of the same characteristics - but not quite as good - as whale oil. My vote is for the new synthetics because of their better overall characteristics - lower coefficient of friction (shear) per viscosity level, no viscosity changes with temperature, no residue upon evaporation, extremely low evaporation rate, molecular bonding to metal, and the list goes on. I am not a repair person and the specific applications and needs have been well stated by those that are qualified by their years of experience. Disclaimer - I sell synthetic lubricants to the trade.
The Doctor
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-11-17 09:53
I forgot that Doctor's Products also includes key oil. One can't really go wrong with any product that the extraordinarily thorough Doctor has researched and presented to the market place for us.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-11-18 17:05
At the ClarinetFest, Francois Kloc uses what I think is axle grease. At any rate, it's a dark brown grease that he dips out of a small tub. I asked him whether using grease instead of oil slowed down the action. He said it didn't, and it lasted longer.
Francois takes the screws off and the rods out to apply the grease, so there's no problem with lack of capillary action.
The slipperiest stuff in the world may be STP. I was at a country fair where the put in on the flagpole for the climbing contest, and nobody could get even an inch off the ground. On the other hand, it's probably mostly additives, and, as Gordon notes, its use on wind instrument keys could be problematic. Has anyone tried it?
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-11-19 11:05
Some repairers use it. Some mix it with something else. I doubt many of them have thought about its real appropriateness. After all, it is formulated for a very, very different situation.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-11-19 16:50
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
>
> I doubt many of them have thought about its real
> appropriateness.
I'll bet Francois has tried more than one thing over his career ...
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2002-11-25 14:35
What a great thread. It finally dawned on me why I wasn't able to get klanks out of my keywork. Especially when the klank comes from the right hand set of rings. Last night I tried putting 1/4" square pieces of plumbers teflon tape over the holes in the ends of the rod, pushing them in a little with the spring hook, and then putting them back on the horn. This tape is really thin. The pivot screws punched through the middles of the tape, of course, but enough stayed in the holes & between the rod and the posts to quiet the beast.
Don't know if the effect is long lived or if the teflon will grind up quickly. If the former, then this might be a good solution.
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