 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2002-11-12 14:38
i dont get it....
im not even sure what my question is here .. i keep hearing how great it is so i got it on CD - and it just doesnt appeal to me becuz theres like, no melody. i mean, there is - i hear a theme - sort of, but its not real clear - it just sounds like a bunch of notes. does sound hard to play tho and there are some cool parts to it - i just dont understand it. maybe im too immature to understand what the composer was trying to get across or not developed enough musically? could someone please explain what this piece is about so i have a better appreciation for this concerto? i know this was a weird question -sorry.
JL
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Author: d dow
Date: 2002-11-12 15:06
The Nielsen Concerto is one of the great works of the 20th century and you are having problems mainly because you haven't listened to it enough to appreciate the language the composer is using.
In other words- this is a modern piece of music and therefore its not like listening to Mozart in that the composer Nielsen relies on a very dense chromatic technique to compose in.
Much like other composers of his era Nielsen is not afraid to tackle difficult intervals in order to get his message across.
If you are a younger player it may be quuite some time before you get your "ears" around this melancholy and brooding work.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-11-12 16:21
Good response by David Dow.
I would add that learning some information about the composer is quite helpful to understanding the musical language that he used.
Do a quick search on Nielsen and read some biographical notes. Listen to some of the other works he composed. Since the Clarinet Concerto is a later work (3 years before he died) listen to some early works as well to see how his style has developed.
Nielsen composed about 160 works during his lifetime. Usually they are precceed by an FS number. This is a catalogue number, similar to the Köchel number (K.) found in Mozart. Do a sample listening to works over various decades of his life to see how the Clarinet Concerto had evolved.
Here is a good site to start with. It was an adaptation of a travelling exhibition originally produced by Danish Music Information Center:
http://www.mic.dk/nielsen/Index.htm
Listening and appreciating to Nielsen is (as David Dow said) just a matter of being atuned to a different musical palette of sounds...GBK
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Author: William
Date: 2002-11-12 16:29
John Bruce-Yeh (Chicago Symphony Orchestra Asst. Principal Clarinetist) has a great recording of the Nielson on a CD.
BTW--he told me that he used an "over the tip" style of double tonguing in that recording.
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Author: Mitch K.
Date: 2002-11-12 18:02
I'm sorry to use this thread to ask a question unrelated to Nielsen, but William, could you please explain "over the tip" double tonguing? I'm not familiar with that term.
Thanks,
Mitch King
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-11-12 20:25
I dunno, the older I get the less I care for this piece. I played it in college and it was a good and interesting challenge.
But I like everything else by Nielsen I have played or heard.
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: William
Date: 2002-11-12 23:26
"Over the tip" double tonguing is accomplished by an upward stroke that actually goes over the tip of the reed producing the first attack followed by another downward stroke (again, over the tip) producing the second attack. You would think that reeds would be destroyed by this up and down tongue action, but they are not. John Bruce-Yeh said that he had never had much success with traditional double tonguing and couldn't single tongue fast enough to execute the articulations called for in the Nielson. For me, it is hard to control, but John assured me that with practice, it works quite well--especially in the higher register notes. I'm trying.............but I still like "ta-ka-ta-ka" better.
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Author: graham
Date: 2002-11-13 08:29
Yes, as mentioned above, you should listen to a it a good deal, and make sure it sinks in. Personally I think there is a fair likelihood that process will confirm your current views. There is nothing much in this, or most other Nielsen pieces, for that matter.
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Author: d dow
Date: 2002-11-13 14:28
Try the Ole Schill record on Bis, or the Kjell Inge Stevenson with Blomstedt. I always had fun playing this piece....
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2002-11-14 17:43
Nielsen met members of a woodwind quintet, who talked him into writing a piece for them. It was an experiment, but even so such a success that he decided to write concerti for each of the players. It is a great musical tragedy that he died after the flute and clarinet concerti. Like other last works (e.g. Brahms Clarinet Quintet), the Clarinet Concerto it is profoundly moving.
This piece is a musical painting, more than anything a portrait of the composer's impressions of the clarinetist it was dedicated to written for. I find it a powerful, disturbing, and emotionally draining piece to listen to, =>in the hands of the right player<=. Otherwise, it may appear a jumble of notes. Listen to Stanley Drucker's recording (NY Philharmonic, Leonard Burnstein.)
Regards
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-11-14 18:32
I sort of agree with Janlynn's reaction to the Nielsen Concerto, even though (a) I've been playing clarinets for 30+ years and am very familiar (and appreciate) much modern music and modern tonality, (b) I love most of Nielsen's music, especially his woodwind quintets and all seven symphonies, and finally (c) the one recording I have of the Clarinet Concerto is the Drucker/Bernstein perfomance recommended by Ralph Katz above. I STILL find the piece difficult to listen to and emotionally "non-moving" --- mostly I marvel at the technical difficulty of playing it, but I don't ever listen to it for pleasure or emotional stimulation --- I consider it a very 'analytical' work. My two cent's worth.
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Author: Kat
Date: 2002-11-14 18:42
David S.,
Not to knock Drucker's recording, but I find the Kjell-Inge Stevensson recording with Blomstedt to be the BEST I've heard. He really does "get into" the music. There is definitely a sense of expression that Drucker doesn't get across as clearly as Stevensson does.
Frankly, I've loved this piece ever since I began studying it about 13-14 years ago...
Just my humble (HA!...LOL) opinion... ;^)
Katrina
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-11-14 19:37
The Drucker recording is spectacular, but that's all it is. I think it misses the variety of moods. You have to hear it, but don't judge the piece by this version alone. I used to have an aircheck tape of a live Drucker performance from around 1967, made just before he cut the record, which was even wilder, but I can't find it.
Much better, IMO, are the recordings by Scandanavian players, including Niels Thomsen, Hakkon Rosengren and Kjell-Inge Stevensson. See the discussion at http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Study/Nielsen.html.
The inaugural recording by Ib Ericksen has been reissued, which shows a lot of the craziness that is a central part of the piece, but it's so frantic it's hard to listen to, and his tone is unattractive.
The Cahuzac recording is very lyrical, but the piece really pushes his technical limits, and it was recorded on 78s, with no possibility of editing out mistakes, of which there are quite a few.
The new Stoltzman recording is equally lyrical and, of course, is well within his ability. The Yeh recording is also quite good.
There's a tantalizing listing in Rich Gilbert's discography for an Oxenvad 78 rpm set on Musical Heritage Society, but he told me he had never seen it -- only copied the information from a European catalog. He said it was probably an aircheck. If I had three wishes, this would be one of them. In the meantime, we have to content ourselves with hearing Oxenvad in the Quintet and the Serenata in Vano, both of which show him to be a master player. The photo in the "Nielsen Original Performers" CD set shows him holding a Leblanc A clarinet.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-11-14 21:14
Having listened to much more contemporary music (Sculthorpe, Ligetti, Boulez) the Nielsen is basically tonal. To say it has no melody is being a little harsh. By definition a melody is a sequence of notes and rhythms - regardless of the tonal palette used to create it.
And - if you want to listen to Mozart that is MUCH more atonal than Nielsen's wonderful concerto - just listen to his Musical Joke - it's is basically bi-tonal in the last movement - very odd indeed.
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2002-11-15 19:22
WOW! Thank You very much for all the replies and information everyone!! Janlynn
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Author: rmk
Date: 2002-11-16 04:01
If you want to have a laugh (or a cry, depending), listen to the Benny Goodman recording with Chicago Symphony, Morton Gould conducting. This came out in the 60's on RCA, shortly before Stanley Drucker's recording.
He can barely get through it, even through most sections are way under tempo.
Before I start a war here, I acknowledge that BG was one of the best jazz clarinetists of all time. I just wish he stayed away from the legit stuff (except for Copland, which came off rather well).
I'd like to put a vote in for John McCaw's recording, which I enjoy. I also heard Frank Cohen perform this with Cleveland a few years ago when they were on tour. It was great.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-11-18 16:31
The LOL part of the Goodman recording is the playing of the snare drum part. The drummer is a major force in the concerto, and most of the part is ff or louder. In the BG recording, it's reduced to a background whisper, like a jazz drummer playing with brushes.
I asked some Chicago Symphony players about it, and they all said it was a poor joke.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-11-18 17:11
rmk wrote:
> Before I start a war here, I acknowledge that BG was one of the
> best jazz clarinetists of all time.
Starting a war ... I think BG was a rather mediocre player of his time but one of the best popularizers of a dance band version of "jazz", an excellent arranger, good spokesman,
and the band leader of a band with stellar and "individual" players - which comes close to nominating him for "sainthood". Few bandleaders could keep players working together as BG could.
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