 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Robert
Date: 2002-11-10 14:51
I've been playing quite a lot of C clarinet recently, in orchestra and chamber music. I find the particular timbre and quick response of this instrument perfect when called for in compositions by Mozart, Schubert, Berlioz, Rossini and others.
I've been using a Leblanc C clarinet, which takes a standard B-flat clarinet mouthpiece. I tried the Würlitzer C clarinet, which has it's own (smaller) mouthpiece and reeds. The tonal consistency and intonation was much better than the Boehm instruments that I've tried. Is this because of the "correctly" proportioned mouthpiece and bore? Do any Boehm clarinet makers build instruments like this?
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Author: earl
Date: 2002-11-10 16:50
Very interesting post! I believe that Selmer produces a Clarinet in C. I rather imagine that the Wurlitizer is more "in tune"and tonally consistent than your LeBlanc because of the ratio factors regarding mouthpiece and bore, plus a few other applicable circumstances. Perhaps investing in a barrel produced with matching bore dimensions could help with your present instrument. If the Wurlitizer you tried is keyed in the Oehler system, you might search for Wurlitizer to ascertain if they produce a C clarinet in their "improved Boehm System" product line. I believe the clarinet section in the Concertgebouw is quite familiar with Wurlitizer clarinets. Simply adapting to the German smaller mouthpiece and reed on the Wurlitizer is no small accomplishment, but I'm sure it can be done.
I agree with you about the timbre and response of the C clarinet. I also think one should be able to transpose, at sight, C clarinet parts, but the importance of timbre and response should not be ignored.
E.T.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2002-11-10 17:58
As far as I know, no "real" C-clarinets have ever been prouced by the big makers. In fact, I don't know of any real C-clarinets with French system. The ones in production are only shortened B-flats.
However, I heard a rumour recently from a friend of mine in Paris that a person working for Buffet-C has designed a new model C-clarinet after consultation with an early clarinet maker who has made a lot of research on various C-clarinet types over the history and applied this knoledge to the French system.
Apparently this instrument is coming out next year. This instrument is supposed to be played with a smaller C-clarinet mouthpiece.
Alphie
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Author: Suzanne
Date: 2002-11-10 19:50
Maybe this is a dumb question, but does that mean an A clarinet is an elongated Bb, because it uses the same mouthpiece? What do you mean by "real" C clarinet? To play in tune it just couldn't be shorter... I don't get it.
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Author: Kat
Date: 2002-11-10 20:08
Suzanne, I suspect that there are differences in bore size and tone hole placement that they're referring to in a "real" C clarinet. Pomarico actually makes an A clarinet mouthpiece now, but I'm not sure why this would be an improvement, 'cause I'm not all that knowledgeable about physics...
Katrina
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Author: Robert
Date: 2002-11-10 21:13
Suzanne- that's actually a really good point. I don't know if in clarinet history, the A clarinets were made with a different A clarinet mouthpiece and reed. What I meant by a "real" C clarinet, was a clarinet that was designed with an optimal bore dimension for that size of clarinet, rather than a bore suited to the B-flat clarinet mouthpiece.
Actually I have ordered copies of classical 5-keyed clarinets from Jochen Seggelke in Bamberg. The B-flat clarinet can be made into an A clarinet by changing the middle joints, using the same mouthpiece, barrel and bell. Apparently this was common practise in the 18th century. They also did the same thing with C clarinets, turning them into B clarinets (!) by using these alrenative middle joints.
I don't know if A clarinets would be better if made with different bore size and mouthpiece/reed than the B-flat. I also only assumed that the Würlitzer C-clarinet had better results because of it's C-clarinet mouthpiece and what I assumed to be "optimal bore size", but I don't know if that is the real reason. Perhaps somebody with a good knowledge of clarinet acoustics could asnwer these questions?
Earl- yes Würlitzer do produce a "Reform-Boehm" C-clarinet. I agree that adapting to the smaller German mouthpiece and reed won't be that easy. But who knows, it might be worth the effort? If Alphie's rumour is true, then I'll definitely be one of the first in line to try out a new Buffet C clarinet.
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-11-10 21:14
I have just been "gifted" with a Buffett E-11 C Clarinet with a special Ralph Morgan mpc for it and am trying to learn more about C Clarinets. Some statements here confuse me. What is a "real" C clarinet? Is Buffett not a "big maker"? Also, Earl said --in part--
"I also think one should be able to transpose, at sight, C clarinet parts,". One of the reasons I negotiated for this instrument was to avoid transposition. Why would I need to transpose C clarinet parts unless I was playing them with a Bb instrument? Or was that what was meant.
Bob A
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-11-10 21:48
I had, for a number of years, a 1920's Conn [Eagle] plastic C cl., an easy, well-in-tune player, selling it to a "needy" polka clist, and disappointing [sorry Jerry] our comm. band pres., since my only use was an occasional oboe part. Investigating mp's, I found a slightly smaller bore mp, had it shortened about 2mm for pitch reasons, which was very satisfying to me [at least]. It was fun to play it, with a diff. sound, even tho the transposition of C parts to Bb is pretty simple. Its my impression that the A cl needs be somewhat diff, in several features, from the Bb, and I have found that I prefer "dedicated" mps for the diff. sop cls. Don
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-11-10 22:54
Interesting - which piece did Mozart use the C clarinet for? (I think it wasn't invented until much later - around Rossini's time), I'm looking forward to your response. thanks.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-11-10 23:52
diz...The opera <i>Don Giovanni</i> K.527 calls for clarinets in A, Bb, and C ...GBK
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-11-11 00:20
GBK - thanks - I knew there was one! thanks
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Author: Carmen Izzo
Date: 2002-11-11 01:06
Speaking of which clarinet came first...Does anyone have any specific links to a thread on the evolution of the clarinet? I always get mixed up when I do searches.
Pardon my Ignorance
Carmen
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Author: Robert
Date: 2002-11-11 07:18
Diz- Mozart used C clarinet in most of his operas. Some modern editions print clarinet parts in only B-flat and A, but any piece in a Mozart opera in C major would have definitely been played on a C clarinet. There's also a Quintet fragment for C clarinet, basset horn and string trio. Mozart also used the rare B clarinet in Idomeneo and Cosi fan Tutte.
But besides Mozart, there is also Baroque music for C clarinet- concertos by Vivaldi, and orchestral works by Telemann, Graupner and others.
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Author: javier garcia
Date: 2002-11-11 11:16
As far as the end of the XIXth century some composers use C clarinets parts as Mahler, R. Strauss. I guess they were looking for a diferent clarinet's timbre comparing to Bb or A.
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Author: graham
Date: 2002-11-11 12:41
When Strauss used the C clarinet in his late "workshop" wind chamber music he was certainly using it for timbre, since the piece also employs two b flats, a basset horn and a bass clarinet. The writing for the C reflects the desire for a more brilliant tone, but clearly not so brilliant that an e flat was called for. This reminds me of an edition of the complete ballet of Stravinsky's Firebird which had a D clarinet part rather than E flat. Fortunately an E flat version could be found, but you do ask yourself just how common a D clarinet can have been when Stravinsky composed the piece, and whether he seriously wanted a different timbre to the e flat.
Concerning Bob's point re losing the ability to do the one tone up transposition when you buy a C clarinet, yes there seems little point in maintaining that skill, except that the same transposition allows you to play D parts on your C clarinet. That makes you pretty exotic and in demand.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-11-11 15:27
TKS Graham, it took a moment for your subtility [sp??] of the demand for D parts on a C horn to sink in!! [Great!] An occasionly-useful full-step transposition of F parts [Basset/French/English horns] onto an Eb Alto is possibly more frequent. Don
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Author: connie
Date: 2002-11-11 17:16
I have a Noblet C clarinet that I use when I want more projection. Its brighter sound just seems to carry better. However, I don't like the "thin" sound in the altissimo register...could just be me.
Our professional clarinetist with the VA Symphony is currently using my humble C clarinet to play the D clarinet part for the opera production of Thea Musgrave's "A Christmas Carol." She had borrowed a better one from someone in Richmond, who had actually had work done on it to improve the intonation issues, but when it came to rehearsal time, his wouldn't play, so mine became an emergency stand-in.
I'd love to try a C mouthpiece, if anyone knows how to get one without buying a Wurlitzer clarinet. Any of you Europeans know if they're for sale separately?
I KNOW I saw a C clarinet for sale thru one of the catalogs, probably either Int'l Music or WW/BW, by one of the Big Three makers, at a price that would suggest that it was of professional quality. Unfortunately, can't lay my hands on any of those right now.
connie
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-11-11 17:50
Ralph Morgan makes a C mouthpiece. I know nothing about them except that it blows much freer than the Buffet or Selmer HS* Bb ones. It sure opens my horn up through the break and in the higher octave. Possibly others much more qualified to reply have Morgans as well?
Bob A
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Author: Robert
Date: 2002-11-11 18:53
There seems to be a bit of confusion on this thread. Let me try to clear up these misunderstandings:
1. The "Big 3" DO make professional C clarinets. However, the C clarinets that they produce are all made to be played with a standard B-flat mouthpiece.
2. What is a "real" C clarinet? I don't know! I played a Wurlitzer C clarinet (German system), which has a different mouthpiece and reed than the B-flat. I found the tonal consistency better than the Leblanc and Buffet instruments that I tried. I attributed this to the different bore size and mpc/reed set-up, although I could be wrong about this. I wondered if Boehm clarinet makers produced an instrument like this.
I've just been looking on the websites, and I see that both Selmer and Leblanc C clarinets have slightly smaller bores than their B-flat clarinets. Buffet don't give bore dimensions.
Leblanc actually boast that on their C clarinets "the tone is so dark and warm as to be indistinguishable from the Bb clarinet"! Although this isn't true, it hardly seems to be a desirable quality for a professional C clarinet, when composers wrote for this instrument presicely because of it's unique tone quality!
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Author: connie
Date: 2002-11-11 22:29
Are you sure the earlier composers were choosing tone quality? I thought that the key systems were so unfriendly in certain keys that they chose the instrument for the key they were writing in, rather than for tonal quality.
connie
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Author: Doug Ramsdell
Date: 2002-11-12 02:21
Apropos of nothing, probably 15 years ago I was at a period-instruments concert of the Schubert Octet in which Erich Hoeprich swapped out the middle joint of his (period) Bb instrument with a "c" joint to do the "Theme & Variations" section...as I remember he kept the "c" joint in his inside jacket pocket! (for intonation purposes, I assume)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2002-11-12 02:28
In some opera clarinet books for A, Bb, and C clarinets, the C parts could have easily been written for the Bb instrument. Thus, it seems very likely that the composer did wish to use the C clarinet for it's brighter sound.
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Author: Robert
Date: 2002-11-12 07:50
Connie wrote:
>>"Are you sure the earlier composers were choosing tone quality? I thought that the key systems were so unfriendly in certain keys that they chose the instrument for the key they were writing in, rather than for tonal quality."
That is to some extent true. In the works of Strauss, where he uses B-flat and C clarinets simultaeously, it is clear that he wanted the C clarinet for it's unique tone quality. I'm busy playing a Berlioz opera which uses C, B-flat, A and bass clarinets. Some parts would be easier to play on another clarinet, but I'm sure Berlioz (who was very interested in tone colour) used the instruments for their particular timbral qualities.
Going further back, when the instruments had fewer keys, it does become more of a question of which keys the instrument is capable of playing in. However, different tonalities had different characteristics (more so than today because of the different tuning systems), and were therfore related to different moods or styles. For instance, when Mozart writes Marches in his operas, the music is often in C major or D major, and the C clarinet demanded here is perfectly suited to this "military style". Another example would be the Turkish music in Die Enführung.
A final thought regarding the Mozart concerto. A sketch shows that he began composing the concerto for basset horn in G. At some point he changed his mind, and wrote it for Stadler's extended clarinet in A. In any case, I think the choice of key and clarinet is relevant to the sound that Mozart had in mind.
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Author: d dow
Date: 2002-11-12 15:16
The "C" clarinet is really something of a problem to me professionally as a player. Several aspects about this strange hyrbrid of a clarinet make me unwilling to perform on these instruments'
1. Lack of warmth and resonance especially in the throat register. After 15 years of orchestral playing and working I know of few colleagues who say use these in a Beethoven symphony...in spite of the fact Herr beethoven wrote C parts, I have never found the tone to be an improvement over the Bb with its warmth and focus.
2. Intonation: Even on the newer Buffet C clarinets which I have also tried I find the tuning somewhat of a disaster, some notes are just to out on either side of the spectrum. The middle clarion has also been something of a dissapointment in terms of sound even on top grade C Clarinets....
3. Price: In spite of the fact the newer models are supposed to be better, these new C clarinets are pricey. For an instrument that costs this much occassion use does not warrnant an investment unless one is really willing to play on such a finnnicky and coarse sounding instrument. That being said some people can play them and make them sound fine ...I prefer to transpose and deal with the faults of my Bb than the faults of a C. In fact I find the "d "clarinet something more interesting...this is the one that Strauss intend for Till Eulenspiegel.
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Author: Robert
Date: 2002-11-12 18:52
d dow- your attitude towards C clarinet is typical of most professional clarinetists today. I would like to challenge this attitude:
1. Sound. Does an A clarinet sound better than a B-flat? No, it just sounds different. It is the special tone quality of the C clarinet that makes it so attractive. On C clarinet one can achieve a charm and character when playing Schubert, a lightness of articulation in Rossini, and an incisiveness and wit in Berlioz, that one would not be able to achieve on the B-flat clarinet. By refusing to play C clarinet you are losing out on a lot of colours on the tonal palette of the clarinet.
2. Intonation. It is a huge misconception to think that you can just pick up a C clarinet and expect to play it in tune. But I don't find C clarinets any worse in terms of intonation than E-flat clarinets. It takes time and practise to play these instruments in tune. Having played with some conductors who insisted that we use C clarinets, I've learnt to play my C clarinet in tune. However, I do think that Boehm clarinet makers could still do a lot to improve their C clarinets.
3. Price. Compared to professional model flutes and bassoons (not to mention string instruments!), I don't think we clarinet players should be complaining! However, as long as clarinetists are reluctant to play C clarinets, the prices will remain higher than B-flat clarinets- supply and demand.
>>>"For an instrument that costs this much occassion use does not warrnant an investment"
C clarinet parts were written by Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Berlioz, Rossini, Verdi, Struass.... If you bought a C clarinet, I'm sure you'd be using it more than occasionally!
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Author: graham
Date: 2002-11-13 08:50
When talking about the tone quality business it is just worth remembering that the classical composers were hearing a different kind of sound to that we hear on modern instruments. The pitch was generally a bit lower then as well. If one really wishes to make it sound how the composer intended, original instruments are more to the point than selecting a particular pitch of modern instrument.
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Author: Robert
Date: 2002-11-13 09:38
Graham- that is a good argument, and I thought the same until I started playing a lot on a modern C clarinet. Admittedly, the modern isntruments don't sound anything like their 18th century counterparts. But the unique tonal characteristics C, B-flat and A clarinets is evident on both historical and modern instruments. One wouldn't want to play the Mozart concerto on a modern full-boehm B-flat clarinet. And now that I've played C clarinet parts on a modern C clarinet, I wouldn't want to play them on a B-flat clarient either.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2002-11-13 12:52
Some of the intonation problems encountered with a C clarinet may be due more to the mouthpiece being used than the clarinet itself.
Similar problems can be encountered with the c-melody saxophone. Vintage saxophones were designed to be played with mouthpieces of a particular length and amount of chamber volume. If a different kind of mouthpiece is used -- for example one longer in length and having a smaller chamber -- it makes sense that one will have intonation problems. Thus, if one tries to use an alto or tenor mouthpiece on a c-melody there's a good chance that the intonation will be problematic. I suspect this may be the case with some people's experiences with C clarinets.
I've had good results using Ralph Morgan's C clarinet mouthpiece (in particular, on Buffet). It is designed to be acoustically correct for the C clarinet.
A couple of weeks ago I purchased a Patricola C clarinet. Before I made my decision, I wrote to the Patricola company and asked them about mouthpieces. They told me that it was designed to be used with Bb mouthpieces. I spoke with Ralph Morgan about this and he had some mixed reactions. On one hand, he said that it is possible to design a clarinet bore in such a way so that it might work. On the other hand, he has the opinion that by using a Bb mouthpiece it changes the essential sound of the C clarinet. When my Patricola clarinet arrived I was able to test it with both a Morgan C and Bb RM28 mouthpiece. The Bb mouthpiece does sound a bit darker than the C. Never the less, the Bb mouthpiece (with the Patricola 45 mm barrel) gave me better results with intonation, fullness and clarity of sound, and overall response. Thus, I decided to use the Bb Morgan mouthpiece.
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Author: d dow
Date: 2002-11-13 12:55
You might be surprised to know but I have worked under conductors who have told me they preferred the A over the Bb clarinet (example Shubert 9 where I used the Bb when my a was in the shop getting fixed). The other thing is blending of the C with Bassoon is not so great...in my experience (15 years +) I have stuck to what works for myself professionally. If you like the C and can sound as great as a Bb my hats off to ya!!!
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2002-11-19 17:27
You might contact Greg Smith about mouthpieces for C clarinets. I heard he was hand selecting them for Patricola's C clarinets. I highly recommend this combination. The Patricola C clarinet is an excellent value and great fun to play. Greg is wonderful with mouthpiece matches and great to work with.
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