 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: classifan
Date: 2002-11-10 08:22
Hello folks, this is a bit of a rant so please bear with me.
I am frustrated with woodwind repairmen who moan and complain to me as they try to "fix" my instrument. For some reason, everytime I try to get my clarinet adjusted or overhauled I get complaints from them that I am too exacting in what I want or "nobody asks for that kind of work or thing" nonsense. As an example, I was was at International Music at 48th street in NYC this week to get my clarinet fixed and these people were very unfriendly to say the least. The repairman promised me that on Friday, my instrument would be completely adjusted and in good playing condition. When I went there that day, I found out that my instrument was barely adjusted at all and I had to spend a good part of my day, telling them what to do and sometimes screaming to get my point across. And the other thing is that the people there did not seem to care much if I was getting my money's worth. The guy later told me that I was crazy because I was asking him to adjust some key to my liking and I was so annoyed at this. In my opinion, I was completely reasonable in getting something adjusted. For example, I noticed that the throat F thumb key was a little bent so that it was not parallel with the tone hole and so, I felt that sometimes I might squeak because of it because my finger would not be able to cover the hole tightly. The response I got from the repairman was that I was crazy, which I thought was weird. And also, my throat G was completely out of tune for some reason and spent some time getting that fixed, and I've never had that problem before. That told me that the guy did not even check my instrument before I came in, which infuriated me even more. I had bunch of other things to adjust and eventually got them adjusted. But, the problem here was that the customer was not treated with much respect and I resent this kind of atmostphere.
Many months ago I got my instrument partially overhauled for 280 dollars by Guy Chadash in NYC and I later found out that the work he did was not very good. This was when a repairman and also a clarinet teacher told me wheather this was really an "overhaul". I told her yes and she could not believe this. I was angry at this point because I spent so much money, to find that the upper joint had leaks, the lower joint had leaks, and none of the spring were properly adjusted as I asked, and pads were also bad.
I play in a university ensemble and I depend on my instrument very much. When we play in concert or record music, I depend on my instrument very much as all musicians do and I can't understand why some repairman cannot really understand this. I hate to write this kind of post, but I had to let my feeling out.
Thank you for reading and please give me your thoughts.
-classifan
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Author: Forest Aten
Date: 2002-11-10 12:47
Classifan,
I'm not sure I understand this post...nor the objective.
In the later part of the post you mention Guy Chadash and say that your teacher told you a repair he made was not good???
You couldn't make this determination on your own??? Especially after telling us earlier about how precise you were with a repairman at a NY City music store? Did you bring your teacher with you to check his/her work too?
Sorry...just had to make a point.
It sounds like you are frustrated to say the least, but Mr. Guy Chadash has a reputation as a fine craftsman. Everyone has a bad day...but/and I'm sure that whatever he missed (if he did) he would have put right in a second. Did you call him and discuss your issue (your teacher's issue) with his work?
A general discussion about the difficulty finding a highly qualified clarinet repair person would be great...I'm not sure that having a destructive vent of the BB is a constructive way to present your question.
How about the BB coming up with some criteria for what we would like to see in a good clarinet repair person?
Forest Aten
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2002-11-10 14:59
There are good repair people out there. So lets use this thread to identify them for everyones benefit. We should get what we pay for as a minimum.
Mark
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2002-11-10 18:01
Craziness and serious clarinet playing often travel side by each.
It IS your money, you should get the most for it.
However....you will only be able to shout in most shops ONCE.
Raising your voice to the supplier of your reprairs is one of the surest ways to remain dissatisfied. You're not paying for the privilege of abusing anyone behind the counter.
Pay with a credit card or check. If the shop will not adjust to your satisfaction, seek recourse with your bank or card holder.
As with shouting, you will be able to do this ONCE in most shops.
If you are willing to ship your instrument for repairs, Rodney Marsh in Raleigh, North Carolina is an exemplar of the industry.
Our very own Johnathan Butler (a regular contributor) has a brilliant record and is reasonable in pricing.
Guy has shown the approach that most serious repair shops often take, he doesn't want to patch someone else's work. If he does a complete overhaul, then every pad and every spring was his.
If he only handles one or two pads... than any of the other stuff that falls out becomes his worry (you can't know what he adjusted)
as you play.
Frankly, if you're dissatisfied with Guy's work you will be long searching for a better set up; he's world famous and gets patronization from some of the Big Dogs in the woodwind world (and you think YOU are fussy!)....
You might also want to try Jimmy Yan in NYC, although I have not seen any of his work, he has a reputation for a serious approach.
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Author: classifan
Date: 2002-11-10 19:45
Forest Aten,
The point is that I want a repairman to be more accountable of his work for the money he's getting. I also want them to know that sometimes the customer understands what he wants better than him and should let me dictate what to do.
As for the shouting, I didn't shout very loudly, but rather raised my voice. I didn't do it in a offensive way...
I shouldn't feel after spending so much money, that I wasn't getting my money's worth. And this guy had something like two weeks for fix my instrument and I called him many times to discuss anything. You weren't the one dealing with him, so you don't know what really happened, so please don't try to reconstruct what happened. Also, I have the right to present my view of what happened. The overall vibe of the situation was bad and that is what I am presenting here.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-11-10 21:32
Certainly, you have a right to present your view, Classifan. We all do. And that's what we have, your view. To your credit, trying to be fair, you give us the other side of the issue - from your point of view I certainly understand your frustration because I've been in a very similar situation but, really and in all sincerety, you need to settle this face to face with the technician, not the rest of the world. To knock someone's work without them present to give an account makes you look like a backbiter and a sorehead. You're probably a very nice person; I have no reason to believe otherwise because I don't know you. From the tone of your post however, had it preceded an actual meeting between us, I might have reason to be wary of you (until I got to know you better, maybe). First impressions and all that, you know.
Most techs I know go out of their way to do the job right. If there's competition among them it's to be the best tech in town. Customer satisfaction is their primary concern, not money. I'm sorry to hear that your experience was not a good one.
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-11-10 23:08
I think this post is very intersting
1) you ask for it (preferrably written instructions) and you pay for it then expect the work to be undertaken (regardless of whether the workman/woman thinks it is reasonable to do).
2) I don't give a tincker's cuss if the repairman is "world famous" - if he stuffs the job up then too bad it's HIS responsibility to fix it up.
3) Classi - never, but never yell at a repairman/woman - no matter how much you are in a rage - life is to short and you never know a persons background (his mother could very well be in a coma for all you know) and - if you do, chances are they will black list you.
my two cents' worth
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Author: classifan
Date: 2002-11-10 23:23
I just want some thoughts on the experiences with the many musical instrument technicians in the US. Maybe this can shed some light on how to deal with these people.
If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself. I think this is true in this case.
Also, when I did the overhaul, I told him to changed all the pads that he thought were bad. To him, these were the bottom four pads and corks pads on five different keys. And I told him to adjust them so that there was no leaks anywhere in the clarinet. I am sure he understood what this means, but there were leaks. Also, there were no improvements in terms of intonation, which could have been achieved by adjusting some of the pad height on some keys.
I don't really care about the reputation of the person as long as the person does the job well. Reputation doesn't mean as thing, if the work done does not meet the expectation I had.
When I am getting a service, I should not have to fight to get my point across. This defeats the purpose of having to pay to get something. Especially, when dealing with a relatively noncontroversial things as getting your clarinet adjusted.
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2002-11-11 03:11
Classifan,
There is a difference in <b>voicing</b> an instrument and doing <b>custom</b> tuning. Voicing is the art of regulating key height for correct projection and optimum tuning. However, there are times when that does not correct tuning. That is when other means are employed such as more undercutting or building up the top of the tone hole to slightly (artificially) lower the tone hole to compensate for sharpness.
Now, as far as I am concerned, most repair technicians will bend over backwards to help you out, BUT time is money. I will bring a clarinet to optimum playing ability, but there are a few who want to sit with me and customize an instrument for their playing style. That's when I go on the clock for a flat rate of $40 per hour. I'm up front about it and if the customer doesn't agree then we part company.
Finally, if only four pads were replaced I certainly would not define that as an "overhaul".
jbutler
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-11-11 11:00
1. Replacing four pads is a repair, and an overhaul is an overhaul. The two are as different as night and day. I believe it is unreasonable to have four pads replaced and expect adjustment and proper voicing of the entire instrument to go along with that, even if you pay handsomely for the task to be done. In my view, voicing of a pad may be needed if it is replaced. If some other pad needs voicing, that means the pad should be replaced first, because likely it has collapsed. Unless, of course, poor handling or accident has caused misalignment. But if I were a commercial technician and a player wanted full voicing along with replacement of only a few pads, I would not accept such a job. Things should be done *right* if the best results are expected. Top-notch results cannot ensue from a partial job. To me, an overhaul means doing *everything* to the instrument so that it is truly in a like-new (or better) condition. And a genuine, full-blown overhaul should really cost a bundle. Proper adjustment and voicing will probably take more time than renewing all the pads, anyway.
2. You appear to have no difficulty expressing yourself in writing. I presume that your oral communication skills are equally good. If they are not, put all your instructions in writing. That should minimize misunderstanding. Then if you request a technician to adjust a certain key in a certain way and he says you are crazy, my suggestion is to depart and find someone else who is willing to earn money by doing what you want
3. You wrote, "As for the shouting, I didn't shout very loudly, but rather raised my voice. I didn't do it in a offensive way... " Sorry, but I defy anyone to convince me how, when dealing with another person, one can raise one's voice in a way that is not offensive. At least, that's the way it is out here in the hinterlands of California. Perhaps New York is different.
Regards,
John
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-11-11 11:11
I am a repairer.
The more a customer specifies exactly what I am to do, the less I feel comfortable about doing the many times more things that he/she did not notice, or the things he/she misdiagnosed. By being more specific about what he wants done, an implication is that he is being more specific about what he does NOT want done, i.e. everything he has not mentioned. I suppose when a customer has this approach it lays me open to the charge, "I didn't ask you to do all that! I'm not paying for it," no matter how viatl the item was for the reliable function of the instrument. An example is being asked to adjust a linkage, when the pivots involved are really sloppy.
My customer gets the best deal when getting the clarinet right is trusted to my expertise. That gives me the flexibility to attend to what my expertise says needs attention.
However I am quite comfortable with the instruction, "I have noticed x,y,z, but do anything else that you feel is necessary."
Sometimes a customer insists on me doing doing a specific thing, and I know that it is not going to solve their problem, because their diagnosis was incorrect. I oblige in these cases but make it clear that I will do exactly as they say and will not even glance to see what else is needed (because in my conscientiousness I would be just too tempted to correct it.) These are often very small jobs; most players do not appreciate just how many diverse operations a good servicing can involve, and that is where the expense comes in.
I wonder if your repairer felt he was put in an uncomfortable position by your requests.
Another possibility is that he had a trainee do the work and was unable, possibly through temporary incapacitation or illness, to do it himself, and neglected to thoroughly oversee the work. If that was the case, and he is a reputable technician, I am sure he would want to put the situation right for you without charge. Have you given him this opportunity?
Regarding tuning, I am reluctant to alter the tuning of an instrument unless the player has brought this up with me. Firstly, a major parameter of tuning is the players embouchure, breath support, etc, and even the pressure exerted on the instrument (hence the reed) by certain fingers in certain fingerings. Also, it is a fact that a player subconsciously adapts to his instrument, including its tuning idiosyncrasies, and if I alter this tuning to what I think is more correct, the player may well perceive this as me having put the instrument OUT of tune.
A bit of a rant, but perhaps another perspective to consider. I really don't know enough of your specific situation to comment.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-11-11 15:14
Classifan -
Any general adjustment should make the pads cover. Adjusting the angle of the left thumb ring isn't rocket science, either.
You take a chance going to International, particularly with the male repair tech, who's a brass player. Rod Baltimore is not bad on adjustments, but he's impatient. The woman (Susan), however, has done excellent work for me. She apprenticed at Haynes and knows what she's doing.
I'm surprised that Guy Chadash did bad work, since he has a fine reputation.
I suggest the repairman at Alberto's, who's really good. Since you've gotten into loud-talking matchs with two people, I suggest a different approach. The Alberto's man is not a shouter, and you need to mirror back his style. Show him the problems quietly and tell him what you want with the greatest courtesy. You'll get back what you give.
Good luck.
Ken Shaw
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Author: classifan
Date: 2002-11-11 15:44
Sorry, I just want to clear something up and thanks for all the advice.
With Chadash, I asked that he do anything to improve the instrument any way possible. I wanted him to give me some advice as how to do so. So, I left it up to him, to make any adjustments that will be needed in any way, since I assumed that he knows more about the Buffet R-13 clarinet then I do. I did particularly mention however, to cover all the leaks. So, he changed 10 different pads; all the lower joint pads and some on the top. I noticed immediately that the upper joint had leaks and he started complaining that I was picky. This was really annoying cause the thing held a vacuum for less than 2 seconds and the same with the lower joint. But, since he was so adament that he did everything right, I just let it go because I didn't want to get into a fight over this thing.
So, I'm not sure what went wrong. I looked at the key work also and notice that very little was adjusted. And when I was tuning my clarinet with him, he did not try to tweak the clarinet at all except telling me to pull out a certain amount here and there. I noticed that certain notes were really off, but those things were not even talked about. And for this I paid that ridiculous amount of money, which infuriates me. At least at International, I didn't pay 25 percent of that amount and got more things adjusted.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-11-11 23:10
Some leaks are extremely difficult to locate, like a pad membrane that is slightly porous, or a post drilling slightly penetrating the bore, or a microscopic split across a tone hole. I have sometimes suspected some pieces of timber being more porous than others, especially where it is thin, around a tone hole. This would be devastating for a vacuum leak test.
I write this for awarenes, not offering excuses.
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