 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2002-11-09 18:14
How does everyone feel about using peanut oil in clarinet bores? It seems to have a lot of the right properties.
Mark
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Author: Forest Aten
Date: 2002-11-09 18:32
Certain people can have a violent and dangerous reaction to peanut oil. Use sweet almond oil if you must oil the bore.
F. Aten
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-11-09 21:32
Ah we are back to salad dressings again. Check out the many voluminous postings on oiling found in the archives. IMHO one should use an oil that is similar to the plant derived oil used to impregnate the wood at the factory. If you want to stick to brand names you can choose whatever the manufacturers sell in the aftermarket - or save money and use baby oil (mineral oil) which is clearly listed on their labels - unless they have removed it of late because of shame.
The Doctor
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-11-09 22:40
Well said, Omar, no salad oils [they can/will turn rancid!!] nor other oxidizable/polymerizeable oils, please. Lets just continue with almond, apricot and Doc's mixes so as to not gum up our bores and works. Don
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-11-09 23:20
If I were to use a commercial vegetable oil of any type, it would not be peanut oil (huile d'arachides). Forest's suggestion to use sweet almond oil is better, so would be walnut oil, and a long time ago I used olive oil with no observable ill efects over a ten-year period or so.
However, the oil I now use is in a small bottle marked "Bore Doctor™" and is produced by none other than Doctor Omar Henderson, Bulletin Board sponsor, real-live scientist, nice guy, and one who probably knows more about oils and wood than anyone else I've ever encountered.
The other oils mentioned may do well, even for a long period. But "Bore Doctor™" has tiny amounts of additives to discourage rancidity and other bad things that I can't remember. Get some. It isn't cheap; but then, neither was your Clarinet.
Regards,
John
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-11-10 02:02
Peanut oil!!
spare me! Just look at the gooey varnish that spills leave on the shelf in the kitchen cuppoard.
Next it will be chicken fat, or extract of nose skin rubbings.
There is screeds of valuable info on bore oil that can be searched in this forum, and it almost all points to the thoroughly and scientifically researched "Bore Doctor" unless you want to run significant long term risks of something you don't want.
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2002-11-10 03:19
I have a common sense approach to this. When trees are alive they naturaly produce oil for their own preservation. When the tree gets cut down oil production stops. The wood, what we call "green wood" begins to dry out and will eventually split and begin to rot. So what we have all these secret fomulas for is to manualy maintain the wood in "green" state by replenishing its natural oil. Therefore all we need is an oil that is as close to the natural tree oil as possible. Ground nut oil (almond, peanut) seem to fit the bill. They are non drying oils that will not build up like linseed or tung oil. I conducted an experiment with peanut oil. All I did was place a few drops on a small dish and let it sit for a month at room temperature in my unfinished basement. The oil did not evaporate, thicken, or become cloudy, (rancid). These natural oils will absorb water not repel it (like petroleum based products), which will help maintain the moisture balance. I'll probably get fragged for this but, Planters pure peanut oil 24oz $2.99 at Pathmark. Proof positive that not everything you need for an expensive instrument has to be expensive.
Mark
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-11-10 04:10
Click - the sound of the hand grenade pin being pulled, the safety handle flying off, and the primer being ignited - you will have to present more credible experimental evidence than given in your post to sway the BB community. You are correct about the plant derived oils sequestering moisture versus petroleum based oils. All plant derived oils will oxidize at differing rates over time and the oxidized products give rise to the characteristic odor of rancidity. Any plant derived oil used on woodwind instruments should have antioxidant(s) added.
No doubt treating peanut plant stems or shell casings with peanut oil will help preserve them, but peanut oil is definately not the oil to use on grenadilla wood. I have surveyed over 30 different plant derived oils, including peanut oil, for wood preservation characteristics - through historical research, direct application to untreated grenadilla wood to test for the ability to penetrate the wood, and various (not all possible combinations of oils) blends to test for parameters of water absorption, retention of oil, etc.. Peanut oil flunked the above test conditions.
As I have stated many times - I am all for saving money and homebrew formulations for woodwind care --IF -- they have a scientific basis of action, or accurate historical president. Also, I recognize that formulations with quality ingredients and thorough testing are most times the prudent thing to use. If you use price as your guide, then how many reeds-worth is a wood treatment with a brand name or a formulation that has been scientifically tested - 2 or 3??
The Doctor
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2002-11-10 05:06
In general usage (I'm a wood worker) the term "green" refers to water content, not the natural oils which vary greatly by species. Though it varies depending on which group is providing the specs, green wood has in excess of 20% moisture content, "dry" wood around 12 - 18 % and "kiln dried" has less than 12%.
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2002-11-10 19:31
I'm back. I am interested in the raw test data for the various oils tested. ie; what tests were preformed and how the various oils stacked up against each other. This is only to satisfy my own curiocity,(separate fact from fiction) in lew of the fact that so much has been written about it. I am asking anyone who preformed these type of tests to post their findings here. To share the information, because we do not all have access to the sophisticated equipment needed to preform some of these tests. Everyone would reap a benefit from this. I realize that these tests may be difficult for some of us to understand, or boring. Send them anyway I am sure we will all get something out of it.
Thanks in advance
Mark
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-11-10 22:49
Dear Mark - and all. When you are in business there are several ways to protect your intellectual, design, or formulation property. These include copyright, patent, trade secret, and proprietary facts. The remedies for infringement of copyright or patent include legal action seeking damages. These legal remedies are costly and may take years to resolve if the party who infringes has deep pockets and the will to steal your property. The latter two protections are risky but cheap. The trade secret and proprietary facts must be difficult to detect without a large investment in time and money to reproduce the desired product or formulation in order to make them effective.
I have given a synopsis and some experimental details on the methods and scientific approach to testing various oils on air dryed,aged grenadilla wood and also on grenadilla wood post manufacture. I cannot give the formulation of the oils used by the various manufacturers, as they have agreed to confirm my analysis of the oils used with the stipulation that I keep their trade secret, and the formulation of my own trade secret formulation. Therefore I will not publish raw data and comparisons of specific oils, emulsifying agents or antioxidants.
You must accept the premise (or not) that I have some advanced degrees in chemistry, have spent many years in the field of formulation, instrumentation, historical research, and tens of thousands of my own dollars developing the products that I sell.
If you wish not to accept the premise that my formulations are based on extensive research and field testing then that is your right too.
The Doctor
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-11-11 01:21
May I remind all that oil derived from the so-called "Peanut" is the oil of a legume, not that of a true tree nut (Almond, Walnut, Pecan, etc.). As such, it's not plausible to me that peanut oil should be expected to share a wide range of properties with "real" nut oils. More likely, peanut oil's characteristics should be expected to be closer to those of soybean oil. And I'm not at all ready to "Wessonize" my Clarinet.
Mark, your concern as to raw data vs conclusions is certainly a valid one. Both of us likely have reviewed far too many (one is too many!) studies where conclusions were not supported by the raw data. This is very irritating to me, but occasionally I do "roll over and play dead" when the raw data simply are not made available. And I fully understand Omar Henderson's reluctance (no, make that *refusal*) to share painstakingly acquired data, as doing so could well eliminate his competitive advantage.
What kinds of oils and other incidentals does Doctor Henderson use in his products? Who knows? He does, and I'm willing to take a chance that he has something better than I could devise without a punishing series of studies, which I don't intend to do. Frequently, it's fun when a new medication is prescribed to check out the Physician Data and review the structural fiormula and all that sort of rot, but I don't always do that, and I suspect hardly anyone else does. Perhaps that's bad, and maybe all my clarinets will disintegrate into a fine powdery mass someday, and perhaps even all my children will be born naked. But such things are just among eventualities of the chances some of us decide to take in life.
Regards,
John
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2002-11-11 02:31
Sorry, I never would have thought that there was that much money to be made in the bore oil market. I'll just keep my head down and back away until the shelling stops.
Mark
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-11-11 04:08
Mark...As (I think) you are relatively new to the bulletin board (apoligies if I am mistaken), it may prove interesting reading to look up (in the archives) some of the very explicit and illuminating posts by "The Doctor". His research in this area is unparalleled, and he often walks the tightrope (quite artfully) between giving the facts about bore oil and actually endorsing his own products. A tough thing to do.
If you read his web site, much of this information is explained very clearly.
We are most fortunate to have "The Doctor" aboard to dispel the myths about certain oils and lubricants. No other person in the clarinet community has done as extensive work in these areas.
He is to be commended and supported...GBK
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-11-11 07:49
Mark, please don't bother putting on the flak jacket. I assure you shelling wasn't intended. It's just that the bore oil business is likely no more lucrative than the snake oil business nowadays, and for Doctor Henderson to make any money at all, he hangs onto his basic information very firmly.
And one more thing: pretty much anything GBK says around here is okay with me.
Regards,
John
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-11-11 15:04
Dear All - greater than 85% of the woodwind care products and accessories market (primarily students)is owned by the big brand names through assessability, name recognition, marketing, distribution channels, price, etc. and often has little to do with quality or product efficacy. My playing and business are my passion and have little to do with making money because I am not yet at the break even point in either one. I consulted with my Boston attorneys - Dewy, Cheetham & Howe (the same one's used by NPR's Tappit Bros.)and they said that I should only post answers of yes, no, and maybe. So ... Oil? - Yes, What kind of oil? - no, Possibly help some fellow musicians? - Maybe. I intend to go further than this - my apologies to the lawyers in the audience.
The Doctor
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-11-11 15:11
Mark, don't get shell shocked. It's just that there has been soooo much written and tested here and elsewhere about the subject that the consensus is probably that you are wasting your time jousting with the concept
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2002-11-11 15:23
I may have gotten a little more defensive than I should have. My sincere apologies to all. I only seek this info for the benefit of my 13-year-old daughter. She is the clarinet player in the family, as I play the saxophone. She has two wood clarinets; a Yamaha YCL-32 which she started with, and a Buffet R-13 made in 1955 as her primary horn. I have however, collected some metal clarinets and restored them for her to play (she thinks they are cool and her band teacher gets giddy when she brings one in.). As you can see I am not, nor will I ever be in the instrument business. My business is computers. I am just a father trying to do the best for his daughter (my whole reason for being here).
Mark
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-11-11 16:00
Yes, Mark please stick around - we love computer guys. But - sax guys are the only ones that still owe me money (gigs, products and rent money) when will I learn?
The Doctor
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2002-11-11 16:44
No one has ever had that kind trouble with me. (You can check my feedback report at ebay under my last name "jasuta" if you want) I pride myself on my integrity it defines who I am and what I stand for. Maybe I represent a small percentage of trustworthy sax players. I am truly sorry that you have these problems with them. I wish they would realize that they are hurting themselves as well as the rest of us.
Mark
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-11-11 19:40
Mark, Mark - do not take anything personally. Some of my best friends are sax players and we kid around all the time about the general persona given to sax players and they kid us clarinet players about having a stick inserted in the bottom end and always being too puckered! These are my sax friends that owe me money but they would give me the shirt off their backs if I asked them - keeping their check book handy is just not a priority for them!
I hope that we all will refrain from personal attacks - my sax quip was not aimed at you - and just have a jolly good time.
The Doctor
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-11-11 21:09
My youngest son plays ... alto sax ...
My middle son plays ... trumpet ...
The oldest plays ... clarinet!
No accounting for taste, even in the Webmaster's family ;^)
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Author: Henry
Date: 2002-11-11 21:29
Mark: I can totally sympathize with your concerns for your daughter's clarinet. After all, you may have invested a considerable amount and, of course, you want to protect that. I am in a somewhat similar position. Recently, I bought a wonderful 1964 Leblanc LL on e-Bay. No sign of any cracks but no maintenance history. So I turned to this BB for insight into bore oils, etc. In fact, I had a few posts in which I "interrogated" Omar Henderson about his oil ("Bore Doctor"). Although I never saw any quantitative data to prove the superiority of his oil, he did seem to be a nice guy and to have extensive knowledge of the topic. Many others expressed their full confidence in him. So, ultimately, I ordered his bore oil and quite a few of his other products. I just finished cleaning, oiling, waxing, greasing, etc. of my horn. It is now back together again. It looks and plays beautifully!!! If it cracks tomorrow, I'll let you know! I do disagree with Omar a little bit about publishing his raw data. He could do this, without giving away his formula, by comparing certain relevant properties of his oil ("OIL X") against peanut oil, almond oil, Mobil-1, and whatever other oil he has tested. Many companies (e.g., in cosmetics or lubrication) do this routinely.
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2002-11-11 23:09
I guess I took things the wrong way. But I understand the "ribbing" is normal. I build and fly RC airplanes and helicopters. The helicopter guys "rib" the airplane guys and visa versa. Because I do both they have a ball with me. It's good clean fun, and we all have a good time.
Mark
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-11-12 01:23
Mark P. Jasuta wrote:
>
> The helicopter guys "rib" the airplane guys and
> visa versa.
Do you guys ever spar?
(I assume your pun on "rib" was intended ;^)
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